How many top 50 recruits does Lavin bring in for 2011?

Quote from: crgreen on July 01, 2010, 06:42:36 PM

Look around at bhe basketball countryside these days.  Look at the teams who's coaches have moved on this offseason - and look at the number of recruits jumping ship.  Those schools weren't "ideal" one day, and "totally sucked" the next ....Kid's commit to coaches.   Schools are very important, obviously.  But in many cases, of secondary importance to the Coach.   Put it this way.  if coach Lavin were to say today "oops, made a mistake - I'm going back to ESPN",  how fast do you think Remi Barry's back looking at Pac 10 schools only - and how long would it take Dwayne Polee to reopen his recruiting?

Steve Lavin will bring in the bodies.  He's always been a GREAT recruiter, and he's even stronger this 2nd time around, thanks to the support STAFF he's put together.  Virtually every perceived weakness from has last gig has EMPHATICALLY addressed.   Which leaves him free to SELL SELL SELL the St. Johns/Steve Lavin program....

Most coaches have to "earn" their way up the ladder. Lavin was in the fortunate position to begin his head coaching career at UCLA, the coaching equivalent of being given keys to a Bentley. It's difficult to gauge how much credit one can give to the salesman versus the car. In the rare case of Lavin, we have absolutely no track record to base his ability to sell anything other than a Bentley. This isn't the equivalent of Roy Williams leaving Kansas for UNC, swapping one elite program for another. I certainly hope he can sell a Toyota, but this will definitely be a greater test of his ability to recruit.

Wow, we are really coming at this from different perspectives.  You seem to have Norms take on recruiting - that St. John's =  Toyota.   

I look at Steve Lavin now running the program with he 7th most NCAA appearances of any Div 1 team, the most NIT appearnces of ANY school, a program that has sent FIFTY NINE  players to the NBA, a program that's produced two Wooden Award Winners, a team that plays in freaking Madison Square Garden....and well, maybe Norm or Mike Jarvis went out and were trying to sell a Toyota to their recruits, but Steve Lavin is still selling Bentley's (and he wouldn't have taken the gig if he didn't believe that ) - and that's exactly what Polee and likely Barry have bought already.   

Quote from: Not The Sleaveless Guy on July 01, 2010, 07:55:05 PM

Quote from: crgreen on July 01, 2010, 06:42:36 PM

Look around at bhe basketball countryside these days.  Look at the teams who's coaches have moved on this offseason - and look at the number of recruits jumping ship.  Those schools weren't "ideal" one day, and "totally sucked" the next ....Kid's commit to coaches.   Schools are very important, obviously.  But in many cases, of secondary importance to the Coach.   Put it this way.  if coach Lavin were to say today "oops, made a mistake - I'm going back to ESPN",  how fast do you think Remi Barry's back looking at Pac 10 schools only - and how long would it take Dwayne Polee to reopen his recruiting?

Steve Lavin will bring in the bodies.  He's always been a GREAT recruiter, and he's even stronger this 2nd time around, thanks to the support STAFF he's put together.  Virtually every perceived weakness from has last gig has EMPHATICALLY addressed.   Which leaves him free to SELL SELL SELL the St. Johns/Steve Lavin program....

Most coaches have to "earn" their way up the ladder. Lavin was in the fortunate position to begin his head coaching career at UCLA, the coaching equivalent of being given keys to a Bentley. It's difficult to gauge how much credit one can give to the salesman versus the car. In the rare case of Lavin, we have absolutely no track record to base his ability to sell anything other than a Bentley. This isn't the equivalent of Roy Williams leaving Kansas for UNC, swapping one elite program for another. I certainly hope he can sell a Toyota, but this will definitely be a greater test of his ability to recruit.

Wow, we are really coming at this from different perspectives.  You seem to have Norms take on recruiting - that St. John's =  Toyota.   

I look at Steve Lavin now running the program with he 7th most NCAA appearances of any Div 1 team, the most NIT appearnces of ANY school, a program that has sent FIFTY NINE  players to the NBA, a program that's produced two Wooden Award Winners, a team that plays in freaking Madison Square Garden....and well, maybe Norm or Mike Jarvis went out and were trying to sell a Toyota to their recruits, but Steve Lavin is still selling Bentley's (and he wouldn't have taken the gig if he didn't believe that ) - and that's exactly what Polee and likely Barry have bought already.   

1) I hope that you are right and I am wrong, but I think that you're being irrationally exuberant, which is fine and expected after a new coach is hired. I hope he does revitalize the program and top recruits begin to view this as a diamond in the rough.

2) Respectfully, two of your four facts, which you must've gotten off of Wikipedia or an equivalent site, are wrong. STJ has not sent 50 players to the NBA, let alone the 59 you mentioned. Secondarily, we do not have the "7th most NCAA appearances of any Div 1 team," but, perhaps, you meant the seventh most appearances of any Big East team (after Syracuse, UConn, ND, Nova, Marquette, and Louisville).

STJ has not sent 50 players to the NBA, let alone the 59 you mentioned.

Not sure whether this list (48) is exhaustive.

Artest, Ron 1999-2007
Barkley, Erick 2000-2001
Berry, Walter 1986-1988
Boykoff, Harry 1949-1950
Calabrese, Gerry 1950-1951
Carter, Reggie 1980-1981
Cook, Omar 2003-
Davis, James 1955-1955
Davis, Mel 1973-1976
Depre, Joe 1970-1972
Dove, Lloyd 1967-1968
Duckett, Dick 1957-1957
Ellis, Leroy 1962-1975
Finn, Danny 1952-1954
Garfinkel, Jack 1946-1948
Hamilton, Zendon 2000-2005
Jackson, Mark 1987-2003
Jackson, Tony 1967-1968
Johnson, George L. 1978-1985
Jones, Shelton 1988-1988
Keller, Ken 1946-1946
Levane, Andrew 1948-1952
Lopez, Felipe 1998-2001
Loughery, Kevin 1962-1972
Macgilvray, Ronnie 1954-1954
McGuire, Al 1951-1954
McGuire, Dick 1949-1959 HOF
McIntyre, Bob 1967-1969
McMahon, Jack 1952-1959
Mullin, Chris 1985-2000
Pastushok, George 1946-1946
Paultz, Billy 1970-1984
Postell, Lavor 2000-2002
Rowan, Ron 1986-1986
Schaeffer, Billy 1973-1975
Scott, James 1996-1996
Scott, Shawnelle 1996-2001
Sealy, Malik 1992-1999
Searcy, Ed 1975-1975
Tough, Bob 1948-1949
Warren, Johnny 1969-1973
Wennington, Bill 1985-1999
Werdann, Robert 1992-1996
Wertis, Ray 1946-1947
Williams, Jayson 1990-1998
Williams, Kevin 1983-1988
Zaslofsky, Max 1946-1955
Zawoluk, Robert 1952-1954

http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/bycollege.htm?sch=Saint+John%27s+University

I think crgreen meant 7th all time in wins.

I do think crgreen is being exuberant, but I also think ntsg is being way way too critical of lavin's history. He gets the job done. How did doherty do at unc w the keys to the palace?

Lavin was young and inexperienced but he was a heluva recruiter, won consistently, and has already shown he has learned from his mistakes.

I think crgreen meant 7th all time in wins.

I do think crgreen is being exuberant, but I also think ntsg is being way way too critical of lavin's history. He gets the job done. How did doherty do at unc w the keys to the palace?

Lavin was young and inexperienced but he was a heluva recruiter, won consistently, and has already shown he has learned from his mistakes.

I didn't mean to come across as overly critical of Lavin. I was just trying to temper what I perceived as unrealistic expectations. In terms of UNC, the closer example would probably be Guthridge, the longtime assistant who scooted over one seat and got keys to a Maybach.

As for Green, he probably got it from Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John's_Red_Storm

"St. John's boasts the 7th-most NCAA tournament appearances (27), two Wooden National Player of the Year Award Winners, 11 consensus All-Americans, 6 members of the College Basketball Hall of Fame, and has sent 59 players to the NBA. "

Quote from: Not The Sleaveless Guy on July 02, 2010, 03:22:31 AM

STJ has not sent 50 players to the NBA, let alone the 59 you mentioned.

Not sure whether this list (48) is exhaustive.

Artest, Ron 1999-2007
Barkley, Erick 2000-2001
Berry, Walter 1986-1988
Boykoff, Harry 1949-1950
Calabrese, Gerry 1950-1951
Carter, Reggie 1980-1981
Cook, Omar 2003-
Davis, James 1955-1955
Davis, Mel 1973-1976
Depre, Joe 1970-1972
Dove, Lloyd 1967-1968
Duckett, Dick 1957-1957
Ellis, Leroy 1962-1975
Finn, Danny 1952-1954
Garfinkel, Jack 1946-1948
Hamilton, Zendon 2000-2005
Jackson, Mark 1987-2003
Jackson, Tony 1967-1968
Johnson, George L. 1978-1985
Jones, Shelton 1988-1988
Keller, Ken 1946-1946
Levane, Andrew 1948-1952
Lopez, Felipe 1998-2001
Loughery, Kevin 1962-1972
Macgilvray, Ronnie 1954-1954
McGuire, Al 1951-1954
McGuire, Dick 1949-1959 HOF
McIntyre, Bob 1967-1969
McMahon, Jack 1952-1959
Mullin, Chris 1985-2000
Pastushok, George 1946-1946
Paultz, Billy 1970-1984
Postell, Lavor 2000-2002
Rowan, Ron 1986-1986
Schaeffer, Billy 1973-1975
Scott, James 1996-1996
Scott, Shawnelle 1996-2001
Sealy, Malik 1992-1999
Searcy, Ed 1975-1975
Tough, Bob 1948-1949
Warren, Johnny 1969-1973
Wennington, Bill 1985-1999
Werdann, Robert 1992-1996
Wertis, Ray 1946-1947
Williams, Jayson 1990-1998
Williams, Kevin 1983-1988
Zaslofsky, Max 1946-1955
Zawoluk, Robert 1952-1954

http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/bycollege.htm?sch=Saint+John%27s+University

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/colleges.cgi?college=stjohns

FWIW, Basketball Reference also has the current number at 48 former players who went on to spend time in the ABA, NBA, or its earlier equivalent.

i'm sure the 59 reflects players who were drafted and who picked up checks...but who never stuck around long enough to make the regular season roster.  players like greg and kevin cluess...ken mcintyre...glenn williams...david russell...wayne mckoy...frank gilroy and willie glass and bernard rencher to name a few.

i'm sure the 59 reflects players who were drafted and who picked up checks...but who never stuck around long enough to make the regular season roster.  players like greg and kevin cluess...ken mcintyre...glenn williams...david russell...wayne mckoy...frank gilroy and willie glass and bernard rencher to name a few.

Newsman is correct.  60 draft picks.

Add

Jeff Allen
Rudy Bogad
Gregg and Kevin Cluess
James Davis
Frank Gilroy
Willie Glass
Billy Goodwin
Bob Kelly (no really, Bob Kelly)
Ken McIntyre
Wayne McKoy
Tony Prince
Curtis Redding
Cecil Relford
Benard Rencher
David Russell
Marty Satalino
Alan Seiden                                                                                                     
Beaver Smith                                                                            
GordonThomas
Mel Utley                                                                            
Solly Walker
Glen Williams

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/draft.cgi?college=stjohns

I'm not sure if anyone's expectations have changed in the past month or so.

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=88&yr=2011
20 of the current Scout's top 50 have signed. (40%)

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/rankings/rank-2288
20 of the current Rivals' top 50 have signed. (40%)

Would fans now sign for three top 150 kids in 2011?

I'm not sure if anyone's expectations have changed in the past month or so.

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=88&yr=2011
20 of the current Scout's top 50 have signed. (40%)

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/rankings/rank-2288
20 of the current Rivals' top 50 have signed. (40%)

Would fans now sign for three top 150 kids in 2011?

I'd gladly take 2.  But I'm cautiously optimistic we will have more than 2.

I'm not sure if anyone's expectations have changed in the past month or so.

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=88&yr=2011
20 of the current Scout's top 50 have signed. (40%)

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/rankings/rank-2288
20 of the current Rivals' top 50 have signed. (40%)

Would fans now sign for three top 150 kids in 2011?

I still believe we'll end up with, at least, 2 consensus top 50 kids.  I'm hoping for more than 2, but I'll go with 2 for now.

I still think/hope we end up with 2 top 75 (not 50) kids.
As a few of our top recruits are 50-75

And I hope ALL of our frosh are "Top 150"
And I hope he balances using maximim 5-6 for 2011 frosh,
with balance hold 2 (for 2012) & JUCO 2

I hope we make a big push for Mack to sign immediately.  There is not a coach or a team on his list that scares me at all. 

We seem in the best shape at SF.  Nash is ranked as high as #4 overall and his mom loves Lavin and the idea of St. John's.  There are several posters that would be surprised if we don't land Harkless.  Sampson, ranked as high as #22, said not long ago that if he had a fave it would be us.  Then there is Remi--who I heard was going to New Hampton to prep (completely a rumor at this point although I think we find out today either way).   There is also Garrett, whose coach said amazing things about our staff.

I think worst case we nab either Mack/Tharpe or  similar PG top 75-100 PG and one of those wings.  Then there is a lot of damage that can be done in the spring with late bloomers, late qualifiers, undecided elite prospects, and top JUCO's.

The longer a recruit takes to decide is better for St. John's.  Lavin's personality will wear down coaches, parents, and recruits.  Not to mention we have a seemingly infinite amount of scholarships to use and other schools won't have the luxury to wait on top prospects at the risk of losing solid recruits to fill voids. 

I also think that Lavin is thinking top 25-50 right now and if we miss out on the big dogs, kids ranked 100-150 will come quick with the PT we have to offer.

Quote from: Not The Sleaveless Guy on August 12, 2010, 06:04:25 PM

I'm not sure if anyone's expectations have changed in the past month or so.

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=88&yr=2011
20 of the current Scout's top 50 have signed. (40%)

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/rankings/rank-2288
20 of the current Rivals' top 50 have signed. (40%)

Would fans now sign for three top 150 kids in 2011?

I'd gladly take 2.  But I'm cautiously optimistic we will have more than 2.

I'm hoping for 2-3. I'll be disappointed if they don't land at least two.

To put it some context, I just checked Rivals (not because they're better, but simply that they have an easily accessible database) to see how many top 150 (not top 50) players Roberts landed each year.
2004: 0
2005:They list three.[Kitchen(68), Torres (102), and Mason (124).
2006: 1. They again list Derwin Kitchen (126).
2007: 2-3 Justin Burrell (51-ahead of Robbie Hummel and some NBA guys, Jeff Teague, DeJuan Blair,and  James Johnson) and Kennedy (134-ahead of Lavoy Allen). Justin Brownlee was #108
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/rankings/rank-1611

2008:None
2009:None
2010:None

Per Scout:
 2009 Omari was def top 150 ( #23 SF)
and I know Hardy was JC, but still top 150 level.

2006 add Coker to your list (#21 C per scout ?)
funny that DJ became our best player (but not top 150)

But top 100-150 does not get you to the dance.

Top 25-75 (I know its very arbitrary) are the kids we need.
Under Norm we had enough 75-150 who played hard, but.......

Per Scout:
 2009 Omari was def top 150 ( #23 SF)
and I know Hardy was JC, but still top 150 level.

2006 add Coker to your list (#21 C per scout ?)
funny that DJ became our best player (but not top 150)

But top 100-150 does not get you to the dance.

Top 25-75 (I know its very arbitrary) are the kids we need.
Under Norm we had enough 75-150 who played hard, but.......

Fortunately, for the most part, the Big East has been very top heavy in recruiting for the past couple of years, which should enable Lavin to move this program into the second quadrant of the sixteen-team league, if he is able to have an improved season this year (contending for a NCAA tournament appearance) and a top 25 recruiting class with major inroads into an even better 2012 class. 

[tweet]http://twitter.com/DaveTelep/status/21595937712[/tweet]

Naturally, this would be the year that STJ has beaucoup scholarships.
It's a very top heavy class, but, with the dearth of quality point guards in the '12 class, you'll see coaches take a '11 pg that normally might have played at a lesser program.

The Class might be top heavy, but most of our recruits are 50+

Who would not be happy if our 1st 3-4 signings  came from:
Maurice Harkless   Norville Pelle
Phil Greene,         Jahii Carson
Tavon Sledge       Cezar Guerrero,
Nadir Tharpe or    Mike Taylor
all of whom are outside scout top 50, and we appear in top 7 for each

Leaving plenty of scholarships for top 50 players like Cook, Nash, Sampson & Brown

The Class might be top heavy, but most of our recruits are 50+

Who would not be happy if our 1st 3-4 signings  came from:
Maurice Harkless   Norville Pelle
Phil Greene,         Jahii Carson
Tavon Sledge       Cezar Guerrero,
Nadir Tharpe or    Mike Taylor
all of whom are outside scout top 50, and we appear in top 7 for each

Leaving plenty of scholarships for top 50 players like Cook, Nash, Sampson & Brown

I'm familiar with Evan and Dave and, since you want to use theirs, three of those aforementioned guys are top 50 caliber players (Pelle, Carson, and Harkless) in this particular class. They're going to update their top 100 relatively soon. From your eight, the second tier would be Tharpe and Guerrero. Lastly, the third tier would be Taylor and Sledge.

Don't forget about Sampson.