Isaiah Whitehead - SG - Lincoln HS - Brooklyn, NY - SETON HALL

Quote from: we are sju on September 20, 2013, 11:43:34 AM

NOT A PRECEDENT! Been done forever

I mean in the fact that top recruits in the future will want jobs for people at Seton Hall to sign with them.

"Well you did it for those two guys..."

Well Calipari did it at Memphis with DaJuan Wagner...     have you seen him do it again..?

Quote from: HowCouldUBeSoHarkless on September 20, 2013, 01:39:36 PM

Quote from: we are sju on September 20, 2013, 11:43:34 AM

NOT A PRECEDENT! Been done forever

I mean in the fact that top recruits in the future will want jobs for people at Seton Hall to sign with them.

"Well you did it for those two guys..."

Well Calipari did it at Memphis with DaJuan Wagner...     have you seen him do it again..?

Yes but the previous examples usually involved staff positions that had no impact on the 3 main assistant jobs.

That is why the NCAA instituted the 2 year rule.  SHU is one of the few hiring main assistants based on getting kids.

I'm going to ask this one more time and hope somebody can explain it to me....

The prevailing narrative around here is that IW was signed sealed and delivered to SJU until Willard decided to go all in, up the ante, whatever melodramatic description you prefer and promise Tiny Morton a job. So according to that narrative, IW, who had already decided to come to SJU, despite the crowded and experienced  backcourt, said to himself "What? They offered Tiny a job? Nevermind what I said before, now I'm going to The Hall." Does that make any sense? Why would he change his mind based on something that wouldn't benefit him in the least? People keep citing the Danny Manning and Dajuan Wagner cases as similar examples...but in those cases  (as well as the Duke cases cited by Fun) the players parent directly benefitted. Totally different situation.

I'm not naïve enough to believe something just because a kid says it, but IWs contention that he chose SHU because he'd be the man there and SJU wouldn't promise him that seems like a much more rational explanation that him changing his mind just because they (allegedly) offered his coach a job. IF Willard offered Tiny a job, it sounds like he's the one who got played into bidding against himself when IW was already coming there, not Lavin.

Am I missing something? I mean, if IW's mother gets an 80k a year secretarial job in East Orange, OK, that I can understand. But he changed his mind because they offered Tiny a job? I just don't get that reasoning.

Tnice, if he chose SHU for the playing time vs. coming to our crowded backcourt, why did he visit us the day before his announcement?  I believe they had settled on SHU but tried at the last minute to see if St. John's would offer Tiny the job.  When that wasn't done, the stuck with SHU.  I find it hard to believe that we were the choice up until the last minute.

My biggest problem with this scenario is with his mom.  Willard did what he had to do to save his job/program.  Tiny did his thing to get a job.  The kid is a kid.  But mom said things which led one to believe that she was looking out for her son and that we were the best place for him.  Then she goes along with this.  If she truly believes that SHU is the right place for him, why didn't she say it before?

I'm going to ask this one more time and hope somebody can explain it to me....

The prevailing narrative around here is that IW was signed sealed and delivered to SJU until Willard decided to go all in, up the ante, whatever melodramatic description you prefer and promise Tiny Morton a job. So according to that narrative, IW, who had already decided to come to SJU, despite the crowded and experienced  backcourt, said to himself "What? They offered Tiny a job? Nevermind what I said before, now I'm going to The Hall." Does that make any sense? Why would he change his mind based on something that wouldn't benefit him in the least? People keep citing the Danny Manning and Dajuan Wagner cases as similar examples...but in those cases  (as well as the Duke cases cited by Fun) the players parent directly benefitted. Totally different situation.

I'm not naïve enough to believe something just because a kid says it, but IWs contention that he chose SHU because he'd be the man there and SJU wouldn't promise him that seems like a much more rational explanation that him changing his mind just because they (allegedly) offered his coach a job. IF Willard offered Tiny a job, it sounds like he's the one who got played into bidding against himself when IW was already coming there, not Lavin.

Am I missing something? I mean, if IW's mother gets an 80k a year secretarial job in East Orange, OK, that I can understand. But he changed his mind because they offered Tiny a job? I just don't get that reasoning.

I think he was going there all along and leveraged SJU against Seton Hall as a favor to Morton

“@AdamZagoria: Lavin, St. John's Move on After Whitehead Decision http://zagsblog.com/articles/st-johns-moves-on-after-whitehead-decision/”

"As for St. John’s, they still have a loaded backcourt going forward and will now focus on adding bigs — including Adonis DeLaRosa of Christ the King — in the Class of 2014.

“As a result of three consecutive elite recruiting classes we now have positioned the program nicely for a bright future,” Lavin told SNY.tv. “Barring injuries on our present roster will have as much depth as any team I’ve coached in my career. With only a few scholarships available for the 2014 class, we will be appropriately discerning in terms of who we target from a recruiting standpoint.

“We will use the next six months to continue evaluating and recruiting prospects that we believe to be the best fit for our particular needs.”

This part of the Zags post should be highlighted:

"It remains unclear what would have happened had St. John’s coach Steve Lavin promised Lincoln coach Tiny Morton a spot on his staff, something that sources told SNY.tv Lavin would never do for any high school coach simply to add a player."

This part of the Zags post should be highlighted:

"It remains unclear what would have happened had St. John’s coach Steve Lavin promised Lincoln coach Tiny Morton a spot on his staff, something that sources told SNY.tv Lavin would never do for any high school coach simply to add a player."

Glad Lavin decided not to be desperate and cave to the ridiculous Demands of those two.  Morton, Whitehead and Willard all look bad in this one...

It did change literally in a few hours.

The deal SHU worked on was initally in the summer.  But when Whitehead did not commit SHU hired Antigua INSTEAD of Morton.  So they no longer had a spot for him at this point.

SJU re-entered the picture and it was SJU all the way thru Thursday morning.  Then as kob said SHU said "f it" and decided to go all in essentially promising Morton a job down the road to get Whitehead.  WIth SJU failing to match that was it.

All things being equal it was SJU period.  But it is perfectly legal and so move on.

I am told if Delgado does not qualify Antigua is out, period.  That was the only reason he was brought in. 

And clearly Lavin does not play that game.  Remember he could have had Momo 2 years ago.  He could have swapped Hicks with Hines for a year in terms of assistant coach vs DOBO.  That would have satisfied the rule.  Or even let Hicks go.  He chose to do neither.  Instead sacrificing a player.  Also having Hicks himself prevented him from recruiting players like Jermaine Sanders and Jack.  Lavin was confident enough in his recruiting that he does not need ploys to get kids and that is why we will be fine with Whitehead's decision as disappointing as it is.

Quote from: tnice on September 20, 2013, 06:34:29 PM

I'm going to ask this one more time and hope somebody can explain it to me....

The prevailing narrative around here is that IW was signed sealed and delivered to SJU until Willard decided to go all in, up the ante, whatever melodramatic description you prefer and promise Tiny Morton a job. So according to that narrative, IW, who had already decided to come to SJU, despite the crowded and experienced  backcourt, said to himself "What? They offered Tiny a job? Nevermind what I said before, now I'm going to The Hall." Does that make any sense? Why would he change his mind based on something that wouldn't benefit him in the least? People keep citing the Danny Manning and Dajuan Wagner cases as similar examples...but in those cases  (as well as the Duke cases cited by Fun) the players parent directly benefitted. Totally different situation.

I'm not naïve enough to believe something just because a kid says it, but IWs contention that he chose SHU because he'd be the man there and SJU wouldn't promise him that seems like a much more rational explanation that him changing his mind just because they (allegedly) offered his coach a job. IF Willard offered Tiny a job, it sounds like he's the one who got played into bidding against himself when IW was already coming there, not Lavin.

Am I missing something? I mean, if IW's mother gets an 80k a year secretarial job in East Orange, OK, that I can understand. But he changed his mind because they offered Tiny a job? I just don't get that reasoning.

I think he was going there all along and leveraged SJU against Seton Hall as a favor to Morton

This "leveraging" doesn't make any sense.  He is a top 15 player nationally...the kind that hasn't even considered SH for years.  All he had to say was I won't go to SH unless you hire Tiny.  They obviously would have. 

Quote from: we are sju on September 20, 2013, 07:22:19 PM

Quote from: tnice on September 20, 2013, 06:34:29 PM

I'm going to ask this one more time and hope somebody can explain it to me....

The prevailing narrative around here is that IW was signed sealed and delivered to SJU until Willard decided to go all in, up the ante, whatever melodramatic description you prefer and promise Tiny Morton a job. So according to that narrative, IW, who had already decided to come to SJU, despite the crowded and experienced  backcourt, said to himself "What? They offered Tiny a job? Nevermind what I said before, now I'm going to The Hall." Does that make any sense? Why would he change his mind based on something that wouldn't benefit him in the least? People keep citing the Danny Manning and Dajuan Wagner cases as similar examples...but in those cases  (as well as the Duke cases cited by Fun) the players parent directly benefitted. Totally different situation.

I'm not naïve enough to believe something just because a kid says it, but IWs contention that he chose SHU because he'd be the man there and SJU wouldn't promise him that seems like a much more rational explanation that him changing his mind just because they (allegedly) offered his coach a job. IF Willard offered Tiny a job, it sounds like he's the one who got played into bidding against himself when IW was already coming there, not Lavin.

Am I missing something? I mean, if IW's mother gets an 80k a year secretarial job in East Orange, OK, that I can understand. But he changed his mind because they offered Tiny a job? I just don't get that reasoning.

I think he was going there all along and leveraged SJU against Seton Hall as a favor to Morton

This "leveraging" doesn't make any sense.  He is a top 15 player nationally...the kind that hasn't even considered SH for years.  All he had to say was I won't go to SH unless you hire Tiny.  They obviously would have. 

So he is that close to Morton that he would change his mind at the 24th hour ? So if Weber State offered Morton a job, that is where Whitehead was going to go?

.

SJU re-entered the picture and it was SJU all the way thru Thursday morning.  Then as kob said SHU said "f it" and decided to go all in essentially promising Morton a job down the road to get Whitehead.  WIth SJU failing to match that was it.

All things being equal it was SJU period.  .

So the definition of saying F it, and going all in, is SHU saying "OK, here's what we're willing to do...maybe, possibly, someday, if a spot opens up next year, when you may or may not still be here, we'll hire your coach"? And that's enough to change someone's mind?

Come on man.

Quote from: fordham96 on September 20, 2013, 10:08:18 PM

.

SJU re-entered the picture and it was SJU all the way thru Thursday morning.  Then as kob said SHU said "f it" and decided to go all in essentially promising Morton a job down the road to get Whitehead.  WIth SJU failing to match that was it.

All things being equal it was SJU period.  .

So the definition of saying F it, and going all in, is SHU saying "OK, here's what we're willing to do...maybe, possibly, someday, if a spot opens up next year, when you may or may not still be here, we'll hire your coach"? And that's enough to change someone's mind?

Come on man.

Tiny has the position.  Make no mistake.  Willard is just trying to defray the correct notions about him.

Quote from: Marillac on September 20, 2013, 10:45:08 PM

Quote from: we are sju on September 20, 2013, 07:22:19 PM

Quote from: tnice on September 20, 2013, 06:34:29 PM

I'm going to ask this one more time and hope somebody can explain it to me....

The prevailing narrative around here is that IW was signed sealed and delivered to SJU until Willard decided to go all in, up the ante, whatever melodramatic description you prefer and promise Tiny Morton a job. So according to that narrative, IW, who had already decided to come to SJU, despite the crowded and experienced  backcourt, said to himself "What? They offered Tiny a job? Nevermind what I said before, now I'm going to The Hall." Does that make any sense? Why would he change his mind based on something that wouldn't benefit him in the least? People keep citing the Danny Manning and Dajuan Wagner cases as similar examples...but in those cases  (as well as the Duke cases cited by Fun) the players parent directly benefitted. Totally different situation.

I'm not naïve enough to believe something just because a kid says it, but IWs contention that he chose SHU because he'd be the man there and SJU wouldn't promise him that seems like a much more rational explanation that him changing his mind just because they (allegedly) offered his coach a job. IF Willard offered Tiny a job, it sounds like he's the one who got played into bidding against himself when IW was already coming there, not Lavin.

Am I missing something? I mean, if IW's mother gets an 80k a year secretarial job in East Orange, OK, that I can understand. But he changed his mind because they offered Tiny a job? I just don't get that reasoning.

I think he was going there all along and leveraged SJU against Seton Hall as a favor to Morton

This "leveraging" doesn't make any sense.  He is a top 15 player nationally...the kind that hasn't even considered SH for years.  All he had to say was I won't go to SH unless you hire Tiny.  They obviously would have. 

So he is that close to Morton that he would change his mind at the 24th hour ? So if Weber State offered Morton a job, that is where Whitehead was going to go?

Hahaha that is not at all what I was getting at.  I don't buy the notion that Isaiah used SJU as leverage.  I truly believe he would have rather been at SJU but we didn't provide him with the same things SHU did: guaranteed starter, face of the program, AND his high school head coach. I think if Lavin "matched" the offer, he'd be a Johnny.

So you joke that IW and Tiny are so close that he would have followed to Weber State, but you seriously think they are close enough to have IW make a plan to involve SJU as leverage so he can get Tiny to SH? 

Quote from: fordham96 on September 20, 2013, 10:08:18 PM

.

SJU re-entered the picture and it was SJU all the way thru Thursday morning.  Then as kob said SHU said "f it" and decided to go all in essentially promising Morton a job down the road to get Whitehead.  WIth SJU failing to match that was it.

All things being equal it was SJU period.  .

So the definition of saying F it, and going all in, is SHU saying "OK, here's what we're willing to do...maybe, possibly, someday, if a spot opens up next year, when you may or may not still be here, we'll hire your coach"? And that's enough to change someone's mind?

Come on man.

Whitehead is 2014 SHU has a full year to make a move.

Trust me Morton is getting something, he didn't just volunteer that quote to Zags.  He made it clear his services were available.

 
"The addition of Whitehead, a consensus top 15 player in the country, could prove to be a watershed moment for Seton Hall. Great players attract others.
There already is talk of elite point guard Isaiah Briscoe, a junior at Roselle (N.J.) Catholic, joining him. The Pirates also are involved with Christ the King senior center Adonis Delarosa and St. Mary’s of Manhasset junior forward Jessie Govan."


http://nypost.com/2013/09/20/seton-hall-landed-nyc-star-by-also-hiring-his-coach/

Quote from: fordham96 on September 20, 2013, 10:08:18 PM

.

SJU re-entered the picture and it was SJU all the way thru Thursday morning.  Then as kob said SHU said "f it" and decided to go all in essentially promising Morton a job down the road to get Whitehead.  WIth SJU failing to match that was it.

All things being equal it was SJU period.  .

So the definition of saying F it, and going all in, is SHU saying "OK, here's what we're willing to do...maybe, possibly, someday, if a spot opens up next year, when you may or may not still be here, we'll hire your coach"? And that's enough to change someone's mind?

Come on man.

Its just a verbal, and hence not offical, so if SHU doesn't deliver on their end of the bargain, he can re-open his recruitment

Quote from: we are sju on September 20, 2013, 11:09:53 PM

Quote from: Marillac on September 20, 2013, 10:45:08 PM

Quote from: we are sju on September 20, 2013, 07:22:19 PM

Quote from: tnice on September 20, 2013, 06:34:29 PM

I'm going to ask this one more time and hope somebody can explain it to me....

The prevailing narrative around here is that IW was signed sealed and delivered to SJU until Willard decided to go all in, up the ante, whatever melodramatic description you prefer and promise Tiny Morton a job. So according to that narrative, IW, who had already decided to come to SJU, despite the crowded and experienced  backcourt, said to himself "What? They offered Tiny a job? Nevermind what I said before, now I'm going to The Hall." Does that make any sense? Why would he change his mind based on something that wouldn't benefit him in the least? People keep citing the Danny Manning and Dajuan Wagner cases as similar examples...but in those cases  (as well as the Duke cases cited by Fun) the players parent directly benefitted. Totally different situation.

I'm not naïve enough to believe something just because a kid says it, but IWs contention that he chose SHU because he'd be the man there and SJU wouldn't promise him that seems like a much more rational explanation that him changing his mind just because they (allegedly) offered his coach a job. IF Willard offered Tiny a job, it sounds like he's the one who got played into bidding against himself when IW was already coming there, not Lavin.

Am I missing something? I mean, if IW's mother gets an 80k a year secretarial job in East Orange, OK, that I can understand. But he changed his mind because they offered Tiny a job? I just don't get that reasoning.

I think he was going there all along and leveraged SJU against Seton Hall as a favor to Morton

This "leveraging" doesn't make any sense.  He is a top 15 player nationally...the kind that hasn't even considered SH for years.  All he had to say was I won't go to SH unless you hire Tiny.  They obviously would have. 

So he is that close to Morton that he would change his mind at the 24th hour ? So if Weber State offered Morton a job, that is where Whitehead was going to go?

Hahaha that is not at all what I was getting at.  I don't buy the notion that Isaiah used SJU as leverage.  I truly believe he would have rather been at SJU but we didn't provide him with the same things SHU did: guaranteed starter, face of the program, AND his high school head coach. I think if Lavin "matched" the offer, he'd be a Johnny.

So you joke that IW and Tiny are so close that he would have followed to Weber State, but you seriously think they are close enough to have IW make a plan to involve SJU as leverage so he can get Tiny to SH? 

I agree that had SJ matched the offer, he would have selected SJ -- with as much of that decision being based on SJ being Morton's dream destination.

 
"The addition of Whitehead, a consensus top 15 player in the country, could prove to be a watershed moment for Seton Hall. Great players attract others.
There already is talk of elite point guard Isaiah Briscoe, a junior at Roselle (N.J.) Catholic, joining him. The Pirates also are involved with Christ the King senior center Adonis Delarosa and St. Mary’s of Manhasset junior forward Jessie Govan."


http://nypost.com/2013/09/20/seton-hall-landed-nyc-star-by-also-hiring-his-coach/

That's one of the reasons I am so disappointed. We would have had a 5 star recruit under our belt for 14 and would have given us momentum attracting other great recruits. We would have really been loaded and may have been on our way to elite status as a program. Having Whitehead around in 15 would have been attractive to some of the elite centers available. Now we have no top recruits on paper that we are targeting for 14. No ,Moose, I am not saying the sky is falling. We still have a great team and I believe the 14 class will be good,not great ,when Lavin is done. It wouldn't be the worse thing saving a scholi for 15. Like you always say Moose its nice to have. You never know what transfers will be a available after the season.

SHU's top 3 recruits all came to SHU because their coach/connection got a job.  This type of approach is unsustainable longterm. Willard needs to hope that Delgado gets eligible and they win some games the year or 2 that they're there. 

With that said,  you can't blame Willard given his situation.  He had to take desperate measures to try and keep his job.  If this had happened with us during the Norm era, I would've wanted Norm to do the same. Obviously, we are in a MUCH more beneficial position program-wise and recruiting-wise than SHU is. 

There's no need for us to alienate a large part of the Metro-area basketball scene for one player.  And Tiny IS a highly divisive figure, so while this was great for SHU shortterm there will some people freezing them out longterm because of this hire.  Antigua also hasn't had the best reputation while he's been a college coach.