Improvements and Recommendations for St. John's

A school of engineering on the Queens campus would be a fantastic idea.  I have no idea if it has ever been a conversation amongst the SJU brass though.

Well, unlike I thought, we do have some reach into the engineering fields, but only a few of them and not extensive:

http://www.stjohns.edu/academics/undergraduate/liberalarts/departments/physics/programs/bs_be.stj

An engineering school would be a great idea and long overdue frankly. The majority of major universities have one and it would improve the quality of the univversity.

I also agree that the computer science program should be strengthened.

As a TCB MBA alumn, i would definately like to see the business school improved. Not sure if moving the program to the manhattan campus is of great importance to achieve this.


While i agree that STJ will never be G-Town or ND (at least not in our lifetimes), it can become comparable to schools like Northeastern and Fordham within a couple of decades if the right decisions are made

If St. John's wants to be in the same ballpark with Fordham they better get on the proverbial stick.

It's not as if Fordham is going to wait for St. John's to catch up. U.S. News has them ranked somewhere around the 55th best school in the country  which is in the same neighborhood as Syracuse, Boston University, Rutgers and Pitt.

The president of Fordham at least states that he is gunning for BC, their Jesuit rival (at least in the eyes of those at Rose Hill).

Not that it's going to happen any time in the near future, but at least he is saying that he wants Fordham to be a top tier school and has made it a primary objective for the university.

The business/ academic model for St. John's is outdated.

When St. John's was opened in 1870 it was created for the good and noble purpose of educating the masses.  In 1870 there was no State University of New York and there was no City University of New York to provide those opportunities to the same population that St. John's served.

St. John's can't compete with the public schools for price, and as poster "Tuttle" has pointed out the academic profile of St.John's entering class becomes watered down by the bottom 1/3 of the entering class.   St. John's currently has approximately 15,000 undergrads.

My suggestion is that St.John's cut its undergrad enrollment to 9,000 students which would have the effect of (x) cutting costs, (y) raising the academic profile of the school, and (z) allowing the financial aid more to be used to assist fewer students.

In my opinion the traditional "Catholic" schools must raise their academic profile or face tough times.  Fifty years ago neither Boston College nor Villanova were considered to be distinguished academic schools but today each have moved to be nationally respected schools.  Likewise Providence College has successfully raised its academic profile.  The best way for St.John's to bolster its academic credibility is to reduce its undergrad enrollment.  A smaller undergrad enrollment would also increase the proportion of undergrads that can live on campus thereby increasing the sense of community.

Does anyone agree?

The mission to provide need-based assistance to minority students hurts the universities academic standing a lot.  If they want to keep better students they need to offer more academic scholarships to deserving students and cut down the admission to unqualified students.  St. John's accepts literally everyone who applies, don't believe any of that acceptance rate stuff, that's only because they offer a free application so every clown in the city and Long Island applies.  When you accept nearly everyone and offer very generous need-based aid, you're going to have a lot of students in school who aren't good students.

The point I attempted to make with my above post is that the SUNY and CUNY systems each provide quality education for the masses at affordable costs. 

Neither SUNY nor CUNY existed in 1870 when St.John's was founded. 

The College Board indicates that the average St.John's undergrad indebtedness at graduation is a staggering $32,886.  As much as I love St.John's I do not know whether the St.John's name is worth the expense for an undergrad liberal arts major versus a SUNY school.

St.John's can't compete with the public schools for affordable education and as such it should modify its goals to provide the highest quality education with generous financial assistance for those that could not otherwise afford to attend.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with any of the last 3 posts, although trimming the student body some 5K students may be a tad problematic.

To be fair, a lot of positive things have happened at the university over the last 20yrs. including (and in no small part) the transformation of the Jamaica campus, the purchase of the College of Insurance and the expansion of The College of Pharmacy and Allied Health Professions.

That said, one still needs to put bodies in the classroom and St. John's may have been forced to adopt more liberal admission standards, on the margin, than others that they compete with for students.

Many, if not most, of the ideas I have read on this board are well taken. However, the proverbial "political will" doesn't seem to be shared with the powers that be at Utopia Parkway.

Bottom line is that FH and Board of Trustees have chosen who they want to be and they don't appear to change course any time soon. They have an established business model, if you will, and obviously they think it is successful since they are not having a problem filling seats. Arguably they are more focused on quantity above overall student quality.

One can argue the merits of such a strategy but the St. John's administration has been quite honest about their mission and intention. It is what it is, and it is not going to change. The U.S. News & World Report ranking is simply not a priority for the school.

As a 40 year plus observer of the St. John's scene, I would be very surprised to see the creation of a School of Engineering, Nursing, Architecture, or Physical Therapy (which would enhance the student profile to a meaningful degree and boost the school's ranking) in the near future or even by 2070 when St. John's will celebrate its 200th anniversary .

If one thinks that the new normal is 7% or 8% unemployment, it is going to more ferocious than ever for graduates to corral good paying jobs in the career of their choice.  I read that unemployment for college grads is closer to 4% or 5% but I wonder how many of those grads are working in their chosen fields or are making enough money where they can afford their own home (or apt.).

It's great to have a college degree and I would rather have one than not, but going forward a college degree, particularly in the NY area, is no longer a guarantee of life on easy street.

At some point (i.e when interviewing for one's first job) a young man or woman is going to have to differentiate themselves from their competition. A fair and legitimate question is will a degree from St. John's assist them in this effort.

Personally, I think the answer is most likely "yes" if you graduate from the School of Pharmacy or have a degree in Accounting from TCB, or have a degree in Chemistry, Physics, or Math from SJC.

I'm not so sure the question can be answered in the affirmative for many other majors at St. John's. But I guess I can say the same for many other local colleges.

Speaking for myself, I think most kids today would be better served to go to a community school for 2 yrs. and then transfer to a SUNY school if they are going to pursue most liberal arts fields of study and save the $$ for a good grad school.

People can spend their $$$ any way they want but it would appear to me, sitting in the cheap seats, that many students and their families have no clue about the consequences of student loan debt or the skills they need to be able to compete in the job market. Many are simply delusional, and don't figure it out until it is too late.

205 Tuttle you bring up some great points.

However,I do think the school is listening to the serious ideas and suggestions placed on this site and previosuly on Redmen.com and BEB. I know of one woman  who works in development mention to me that she read Redmen.com frequently and enjoyed for the most part the civil dialogue and solid ideas bantered about.

Also I do think Brian Shea's who is a member of the BOT influence in the hiring of Steve Lavin was in part a reaction to the fans dissatisfaction placed on the various message boards, Brian worked very hard with Mike Repole and Chris Monasch to no not let the Status Quo way of doing things continue.

Kudos to them.

Much like Father Harrington did not understand just how good the St. John's athletic program could be, I do not believe he and his brain trust understand just how much the schools academics could be.

Much like Father Harrington did not understand just how good the St. John's athletic program could be, I do not believe he and his brain trust understand just how much the schools academics could be.

Very well said.  Sometimes it takes striving for excellence to prove that excellence can really be had.  Lavin changed our reputation and ceiling overnight.  Sometimes increased expectations are a good thing.  SJU is not a trade school.  I don't think SJU should have their sights set on Harvard, but this is not a trade school.  SJU's approach should be along the practical lines that it has always been and not academia, but things must change moving forward.  Practical fields like Engineering, healthcare etc. prepare students to attain jobs.  Like I said, SJU did a great thing by acquiring the Physician Assistant school and adding it to their Allied Health school.   PA's are all graduating with high GPA's, all have tons of jobs available, and most in 6 figure range.  Goes to show that SJU can adapt and has done so successfully.  We just need more of that.

I don't think too many of us would mind if we had our sights set on Villanova (which has a school of engineering and nursing).

As I recall reading in Jim Pellow's book, FH had to be convinced that dorms were a necessity if St. John's was going to be a viable national institution. Much to his credit, and to be fair, FH changed his mind after a compelling case was brought before him.

That said, since FH is at the tail end of his tenure, I wouldn't expect any dramatic changes in direction as it pertains to the school's academic offering.

Our best hope is that the next president of St. John's has a vision that would include a dramatic improvement in the university's overall academic reputation.

205 I agree wholeheartedly, I also think the next President needs to be friendlier though.

If Fr. Harrington is like Cardinal Egan, the next President needs to be more like Archbishop Timothy Dolan in temperament and accessability.

When I was on the e-board of Student Government at St. John's, I met with Father Harrington on a monthly basis.  He told us that St. John's could easily be on the same level with Fordham, Villanova, and other top Catholic schools, but he wanted to stay close the mission.  I argued that the creation of community colleges and the growth of the CUNY system have really changed things and that niche has really been filled. 

I think Father Harrington has done a great job, but his emphasis has never been and will never be on improving the academic resume of the school.  One of the leading candidates to replace Father Harrington, Sister Margeret Fitzpatrick of St. Thomas Aquinas, would definitely make that a priority.  She setup a joint program with NYU there and started a relationship with STJ School of Law for a graduating STAC students.

The "mission" for St. John's is noble but Harrington and his posse have used it as an excuse for academic mediocrity.

I challenge anyone to find any old tme "Catholis" college that was not established to educate the poor.  The difference is that Boston College, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Fordham, and Villanova have sophisticated leaders who elected to provide first class education to the poor rather than compete with the state schools.  Providence College and other med tier Catholics not attract students with better academic qualifications.

When I was on the e-board of Student Government at St. John's, I met with Father Harrington on a monthly basis.  He told us that St. John's could easily be on the same level with Fordham, Villanova, and other top Catholic schools, but he wanted to stay close the mission.  I argued that the creation of community colleges and the growth of the CUNY system have really changed things and that niche has really been filled. 

I think Father Harrington has done a great job, but his emphasis has never been and will never be on improving the academic resume of the school.  One of the leading candidates to replace Father Harrington, Sister Margeret Fitzpatrick of St. Thomas Aquinas, would definitely make that a priority.  She setup a joint program with NYU there and started a relationship with STJ School of Law for a graduating STAC students.

Well, SJU must go that direction if we want to survive.  You are right Marillac, that the niche you speak of is filled.  SJU can still honor that mission without breaking down all academic standards to do so.  The Mission is to educate the poor.  That doesn't mean that all of the poor are poor students with low GPA's that should be attending a private Catholic College in NYC.  I think SJU's sights should certainly be set on schools like Nova, Fordham, Holy Cross etc.  There is no reason at all that the school can't attain that status with a few changes including tightening standards, and changing offerings a bit. 

I really hope that when Father Harrington steps down which should be soon, we land somebody who can and will take SJU to that next level.  We lucked into Steve Lavin basketball-wise quite a bit.  Need more than luck with the next President, and hopefully one that has a fresh mission, not just status quo.

http://adage.com/article/media/time-warner-cable-hearst-hbo-verizon-fund-nyc-media-lab/241291/

missed opportunity, we should be in the mix for this.

IMO in order to really live up to the "metropolitan" mission of the university, St. John's needs to create/ improve on the below majors.

St. Johns is not taking advantage of being in "NYC", something they need to capitalize on. 

NYC Financial capital of the world -> STJ needs develop and expand the graduate program on the Manhattan campus, with so many people in the financial district coming to NYC, and then once they are in established positions with fortune 500 companies, choose to pursue a higher degree. They should be able to take advantage of the Manhattan campus location. STJ could compete with NYU, Fordham, and Baruch's Manhattan grad schools.

Communications / Advertising capital -> Madison Ave. is known for being the center of advertising (not just in Mad Men, in real life) Not to mention most of the communications industry is headquartered in NY (CBS, NBC, ABC, Viacom, News Corp.). STJ Must at least expand on the communications department, if not create a communications school.

NYC Architecture-> with such a big and ever expanding major world leading metropolitan city as your backdrop, its another missed opportunity, Not to mention the Rome and Paris campus give them the opportunity to easily study old world and new world architecture, an advantage most other programs probably do not have.


That should be a start... The Queens campus also needs to keep expanding, I think they are at about 4,000+ dormers, that should go up to about 8,000, and start buying out those random houses that are basically on campus (behind the town houses, and by gate 6) they are quickly running out of room.

IMO in order to really live up to the "metropolitan" mission of the university, St. John's needs to create/ improve on the below majors.

St. Johns is not taking advantage of being in "NYC", something they need to capitalize on. 

NYC Financial capital of the world -> STJ needs develop and expand the graduate program on the Manhattan campus, with so many people in the financial district coming to NYC, and then once they are in established positions with fortune 500 companies, choose to pursue a higher degree. They should be able to take advantage of the Manhattan campus location. STJ could compete with NYU, Fordham, and Baruch's Manhattan grad schools.

Communications / Advertising capital -> Madison Ave. is known for being the center of advertising (not just in Mad Men, in real life) Not to mention most of the communications industry is headquartered in NY (CBS, NBC, ABC, Viacom, News Corp.). STJ Must at least expand on the communications department, if not create a communications school.

NYC Architecture-> with such a big and ever expanding major world leading metropolitan city as your backdrop, its another missed opportunity, Not to mention the Rome and Paris campus give them the opportunity to easily study old world and new world architecture, an advantage most other programs probably do not have.


That should be a start... The Queens campus also needs to keep expanding, I think they are at about 4,000+ dormers, that should go up to about 8,000, and start buying out those random houses that are basically on campus (behind the town houses, and by gate 6) they are quickly running out of room.

The neighborhood had the old admin by the balls.  I used to be a part of the committe that met with them and there are a lot of limiting restrictions...height of dorms, etc.  The old admin never challenged that and always catered to the surrounding community. 

Also, there are (or were, at lest) standing offers on all the houses immediately surrounding the campus. 

I never understood the height restrictions as there are other buildings in fresh meadows with more than 6 stories. Is there some sort of law against it?