Jermaine Lawrence - PF - Cincinnati Transfer - Bayside, NY

I know beggars can't be choosers and all, but not having players in 2013, kind of keeps the team in that uneven scholarship situation, where you have to reload with a bunch of freshmen.  In an ideal world, wouldn't you want more balance from class to class?    When you bring in so many freshmen, unless you are Kentucky or UNC, you are guaranteeing yourself another mediocre (or even worse), year.  If you want to sustain a successful program, you need players in every class.

I agree with STJFAN.  Crean had a much easier product to sell.

How was it easier when Lavin had a Top 5 class before even playing a regular season game.  He was pitching STJ, MSG, BE, NYC all that jazz.  Crean had a historic program on probation with nobody coming back.  In addition Lavin then took the team he had and took them the to the NCAA's paving the way for excitement with the group coming in even higher.

Sorry but take a step back and look at what job you would have rather had.  Crean walking into a minefield, or STJ with a clean slate of schollies you can fill at your disposal.

How was it easier when Lavin had a Top 5 class before even playing a regular season game.  He was pitching STJ, MSG, BE, NYC all that jazz.  Crean had a historic program on probation with nobody coming back.  In addition Lavin then took the team he had and took them the to the NCAA's paving the way for excitement with the group coming in even higher.

Sorry but take a step back and look at what job you would have rather had.  Crean walking into a minefield, or STJ with a clean slate of schollies you can fill at your disposal.

I think Lavin walked into a good situation for instant success his first year, but Crean had the better program from which to build, IMO.  Plus, filling 10 spots at once is not a place that any head coach wants to find himself in year 2 of his tenure. 

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:03:52 PM

How was it easier when Lavin had a Top 5 class before even playing a regular season game.  He was pitching STJ, MSG, BE, NYC all that jazz.  Crean had a historic program on probation with nobody coming back.  In addition Lavin then took the team he had and took them the to the NCAA's paving the way for excitement with the group coming in even higher.

Sorry but take a step back and look at what job you would have rather had.  Crean walking into a minefield, or STJ with a clean slate of schollies you can fill at your disposal.

I think Lavin walked into a good situation for instant success his first year, but Crean had the better program from which to build, IMO.  Plus, filling 10 spots at once is not a place that any head coach wants to find himself in year 2 of his tenure. 

On the contrary I think most coaches would love that chance.  Its a chance to make the team on their own and not deal with the previous regime's players hanging around.

Only thing you can look back on is what a few said last year.  Instead of going for all the heavy hitters maybe some role players and safer options so you  didn't have 3 ppl not make it to start and another fly the coop mid season.

Quote from: DFF6 on February 05, 2013, 02:18:49 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:03:52 PM

How was it easier when Lavin had a Top 5 class before even playing a regular season game.  He was pitching STJ, MSG, BE, NYC all that jazz.  Crean had a historic program on probation with nobody coming back.  In addition Lavin then took the team he had and took them the to the NCAA's paving the way for excitement with the group coming in even higher.

Sorry but take a step back and look at what job you would have rather had.  Crean walking into a minefield, or STJ with a clean slate of schollies you can fill at your disposal.

I think Lavin walked into a good situation for instant success his first year, but Crean had the better program from which to build, IMO.  Plus, filling 10 spots at once is not a place that any head coach wants to find himself in year 2 of his tenure. 

On the contrary I think most coaches would love that chance.  Its a chance to make the team on their own and not deal with the previous regime's players hanging around.

Only thing you can look back on is what a few said last year.  Instead of going for all the heavy hitters maybe some role players and safer options so you  didn't have 3 ppl not make it to start and another fly the coop mid season.

I'll defer to your view on this Moose, but I don't recall Lavin talking about having to fill 10 spots in one year as a great position to be in.  He described it more as a challenge that would take some time before the fruit of his labors of "filling the arc" would materialize.  Maybe he was just exercising good expectation management skills.

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:23:03 PM

Quote from: DFF6 on February 05, 2013, 02:18:49 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:03:52 PM

How was it easier when Lavin had a Top 5 class before even playing a regular season game.  He was pitching STJ, MSG, BE, NYC all that jazz.  Crean had a historic program on probation with nobody coming back.  In addition Lavin then took the team he had and took them the to the NCAA's paving the way for excitement with the group coming in even higher.

Sorry but take a step back and look at what job you would have rather had.  Crean walking into a minefield, or STJ with a clean slate of schollies you can fill at your disposal.

I think Lavin walked into a good situation for instant success his first year, but Crean had the better program from which to build, IMO.  Plus, filling 10 spots at once is not a place that any head coach wants to find himself in year 2 of his tenure. 

On the contrary I think most coaches would love that chance.  Its a chance to make the team on their own and not deal with the previous regime's players hanging around.

Only thing you can look back on is what a few said last year.  Instead of going for all the heavy hitters maybe some role players and safer options so you  didn't have 3 ppl not make it to start and another fly the coop mid season.

I'll defer to your view on this Moose, but I don't recall Lavin talking about having to fill 10 spots in one year as a great position to be in.  He described it more as a challenge that would take some time before the fruit of his labors of "filling the arc" would materialize.  Maybe he was just exercising good expectation management skills.

I don't think its something a coach would publicly say is great. Because then its a knock on the previous coach/players.

 Crean may have had a tougher road. Bottom line is that until last year, every season he had 20+ loses at Indiana.

 My point in originally bringing up the comparison was to try to preach patience in the process.  Imagine Lavin's first 3 seasons were like Crean's?  Would love to read the boards then. I'm sure the IU boards were ripping him to shreds.

 Of course the situations aren't identical, no two situations are, but I think some perspective can be gained looking at both.

 It is certainly possible that 2 seasons from now we could be looking at a top 10 team. Why not?

When you've hired the person that you believe is right for the job---especially when he has a successful track record---then you have to be patient and give him time to rebuild.  If there is no progress then, eventually, you have to move on.  But as long as things are moving in the right direction (as it is with St. John's) then you can't overreact to each little negative.

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

I know beggars can't be choosers and all, but not having players in 2013, kind of keeps the team in that uneven scholarship situation, where you have to reload with a bunch of freshmen.  In an ideal world, wouldn't you want more balance from class to class?    When you bring in so many freshmen, unless you are Kentucky or UNC, you are guaranteeing yourself another mediocre (or even worse), year.  If you want to sustain a successful program, you need players in every class.

Agree, agree, agree.  Right on the money.  If you dont bring in a few players in every class, this leads to a large haul in one class and the "forever young" excuse goes on and on.

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

As others have pointed out Lavin played the game to get Obekpa and Sampson.   To claim he's taking the high road here because he didn't want to deal with Jermaine's lady-handler ... that smacks a bit hypocritical. 

From what everyone says, including our own in the know posters... Obekpa's recruitment was as shady as it gets, Jakarr had people around him too, and even Moe had Nate.   So let's not act like coach is the only coach in america willing to stand up to handlers.    This year we just happen to have 11 players returning, so the need isn't as pressing.   

Quote from: simplyred on February 05, 2013, 03:14:22 PM

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

As others have pointed out Lavin played the game to get Obekpa and Sampson.   To claim he's taking the high road here because he didn't want to deal with Jermaine's lady-handler ... that smacks a bit hypocritical. 

From what everyone says, including our own in the know posters... Obekpa's recruitment was as shady as it gets, Jakarr had people around him too, and even Moe had Nate.   So let's not act like coach is the only coach in america willing to stand up to handlers.    This year we just happen to have 11 players returning, so the need isn't as pressing.   

You pick your spots.

Quote from: DFF6 on February 05, 2013, 02:27:52 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:23:03 PM

Quote from: DFF6 on February 05, 2013, 02:18:49 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:03:52 PM

How was it easier when Lavin had a Top 5 class before even playing a regular season game.  He was pitching STJ, MSG, BE, NYC all that jazz.  Crean had a historic program on probation with nobody coming back.  In addition Lavin then took the team he had and took them the to the NCAA's paving the way for excitement with the group coming in even higher.

Sorry but take a step back and look at what job you would have rather had.  Crean walking into a minefield, or STJ with a clean slate of schollies you can fill at your disposal.

I think Lavin walked into a good situation for instant success his first year, but Crean had the better program from which to build, IMO.  Plus, filling 10 spots at once is not a place that any head coach wants to find himself in year 2 of his tenure. 

On the contrary I think most coaches would love that chance.  Its a chance to make the team on their own and not deal with the previous regime's players hanging around.

Only thing you can look back on is what a few said last year.  Instead of going for all the heavy hitters maybe some role players and safer options so you  didn't have 3 ppl not make it to start and another fly the coop mid season.

I'll defer to your view on this Moose, but I don't recall Lavin talking about having to fill 10 spots in one year as a great position to be in.  He described it more as a challenge that would take some time before the fruit of his labors of "filling the arc" would materialize.  Maybe he was just exercising good expectation management skills.

I don't think its something a coach would publicly say is great. Because then its a knock on the previous coach/players.

When you consider that Lavin was away from the game for so long to come into a situation where he has to fill 10 spots is not an ideal position to be in. Its not a great situation because you want your freshmen to learn from the upperclassmen both on and off the court, how to balance school, practice, working out, etc.. Heavy hitters or not, he's still locked in and won't have many ships available until 2015. Crean didn't have worry about that, his ships were already staggered. The fact that he brought in a top 10 class his first year is more of a testament on Lavin's ability rather than the situation, IMO. This program wasn't relevant! National programs bounce back from sanctions. Baylor had a murder on there hands! it didn't impact their recruiting success.

When you've hired the person that you believe is right for the job---especially when he has a successful track record---then you have to be patient and give him time to rebuild.  If there is no progress then, eventually, you have to move on.  But as long as things are moving in the right direction (as it is with St. John's) then you can't overreact to each little negative.

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

Little negative??  Losing McCullough and now Lawrence, in back to back recruiting classes and who are both 5 star recruits and potential future NBA front line players is not a little negative.  It changes the whole scheme of things, the whole direction of the program.  Anyone who underestimates the impact that those two players would have had on the program is quite delusional. 

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:46:09 PM

Quote from: DFF6 on February 05, 2013, 02:27:52 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:23:03 PM

Quote from: DFF6 on February 05, 2013, 02:18:49 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:03:52 PM

How was it easier when Lavin had a Top 5 class before even playing a regular season game.  He was pitching STJ, MSG, BE, NYC all that jazz.  Crean had a historic program on probation with nobody coming back.  In addition Lavin then took the team he had and took them the to the NCAA's paving the way for excitement with the group coming in even higher.

Sorry but take a step back and look at what job you would have rather had.  Crean walking into a minefield, or STJ with a clean slate of schollies you can fill at your disposal.

I think Lavin walked into a good situation for instant success his first year, but Crean had the better program from which to build, IMO.  Plus, filling 10 spots at once is not a place that any head coach wants to find himself in year 2 of his tenure. 

On the contrary I think most coaches would love that chance.  Its a chance to make the team on their own and not deal with the previous regime's players hanging around.

Only thing you can look back on is what a few said last year.  Instead of going for all the heavy hitters maybe some role players and safer options so you  didn't have 3 ppl not make it to start and another fly the coop mid season.

I'll defer to your view on this Moose, but I don't recall Lavin talking about having to fill 10 spots in one year as a great position to be in.  He described it more as a challenge that would take some time before the fruit of his labors of "filling the arc" would materialize.  Maybe he was just exercising good expectation management skills.

I don't think its something a coach would publicly say is great. Because then its a knock on the previous coach/players.

When you consider that Lavin was away from the game for so long to come into a situation where he has to fill 10 spots is not an ideal position to be in. Its not a great situation because you want your freshmen to learn from the upperclassmen both on and off the court, how to balance school, practice, working out, etc.. Heavy hitters or not, he's still locked in and won't have many ships available until 2015. Crean didn't have worry about that, his ships were already staggered. The fact that he brought in a top 10 class his first year is more of a testament on Lavin's ability rather than the situation, IMO. This program wasn't relevant! National programs bounce back from sanctions. Baylor had a murder on there hands! it didn't impact their recruiting success.

I don't know enough about Crean's teams but he had to field a team so he took walkons I guess or gave some walkons schollies.  Not sure how many were taken away.  I just remember the teams were bad and he didn't have many guys.  Otherwise he would have had a massive class.

As for Baylor it did impact their recruiting. 

8-21
9-19
4-13
15-16
21-11

Those were Scott Drew's first 5 yrs at Baylor (after the murder)

Quote from: desco80 on February 05, 2013, 03:31:23 PM

Quote from: simplyred on February 05, 2013, 03:14:22 PM

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

As others have pointed out Lavin played the game to get Obekpa and Sampson.   To claim he's taking the high road here because he didn't want to deal with Jermaine's lady-handler ... that smacks a bit hypocritical. 

From what everyone says, including our own in the know posters... Obekpa's recruitment was as shady as it gets, Jakarr had people around him too, and even Moe had Nate.   So let's not act like coach is the only coach in america willing to stand up to handlers.    This year we just happen to have 11 players returning, so the need isn't as pressing.   

You pick your spots.

No doubt, Moose.   And maybe this time it wasn't worth it.   I'll trust coach on that.
But let's not act like we don't play the recruiting games... everybody does.   It's a fact of life.   

Quote from: simplyred on February 05, 2013, 03:14:22 PM

When you've hired the person that you believe is right for the job---especially when he has a successful track record---then you have to be patient and give him time to rebuild.  If there is no progress then, eventually, you have to move on.  But as long as things are moving in the right direction (as it is with St. John's) then you can't overreact to each little negative.

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

Little negative??  Losing McCullough and now Lawrence, in back to back recruiting classes and who are both 5 star recruits and potential future NBA front line players is not a little negative.  It changes the whole scheme of things, the whole direction of the program.  Anyone who underestimates the impact that those two players would have had on the program is quite delusional.

No one is saying losing out on those recruits is a good thing. Of course they would have made a huge impact on the program. However, it's also not the end of the world either. As long as we are moving in the right direction as a program, getting better year over year, then we shouldn't overreact to the fact we lost out on another 5 star recruit. It's not the first, nor the last 5 star recruit we will lose. Progress is being made, regardless of which 5 star recruit we don't happen to sign.

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on February 05, 2013, 03:37:12 PM

Quote from: simplyred on February 05, 2013, 03:14:22 PM

When you've hired the person that you believe is right for the job---especially when he has a successful track record---then you have to be patient and give him time to rebuild.  If there is no progress then, eventually, you have to move on.  But as long as things are moving in the right direction (as it is with St. John's) then you can't overreact to each little negative.

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

Little negative??  Losing McCullough and now Lawrence, in back to back recruiting classes and who are both 5 star recruits and potential future NBA front line players is not a little negative.  It changes the whole scheme of things, the whole direction of the program.  Anyone who underestimates the impact that those two players would have had on the program is quite delusional.

No one is saying losing out on those recruits is a good thing. Of course they would have made a huge impact on the program. However, it's also not the end of the world either. As long as we are moving in the right direction as a program, getting better year over year, then we shouldn't overreact to the fact we lost out on another 5 star recruit. It's not the first, nor the last 5 star recruit we will lose. Progress is being made, regardless of which 5 star recruit we don't happen to sign.

 Come on.. We are doomed.      Don't be delusional.   

Quote from: STJFAN on February 05, 2013, 03:50:50 PM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on February 05, 2013, 03:37:12 PM

Quote from: simplyred on February 05, 2013, 03:14:22 PM

When you've hired the person that you believe is right for the job---especially when he has a successful track record---then you have to be patient and give him time to rebuild.  If there is no progress then, eventually, you have to move on.  But as long as things are moving in the right direction (as it is with St. John's) then you can't overreact to each little negative.

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

Little negative??  Losing McCullough and now Lawrence, in back to back recruiting classes and who are both 5 star recruits and potential future NBA front line players is not a little negative.  It changes the whole scheme of things, the whole direction of the program.  Anyone who underestimates the impact that those two players would have had on the program is quite delusional.

No one is saying losing out on those recruits is a good thing. Of course they would have made a huge impact on the program. However, it's also not the end of the world either. As long as we are moving in the right direction as a program, getting better year over year, then we shouldn't overreact to the fact we lost out on another 5 star recruit. It's not the first, nor the last 5 star recruit we will lose. Progress is being made, regardless of which 5 star recruit we don't happen to sign.

 Come on.. We are doomed.      Don't be delusional.   

Its Doomed (TM)

Quote from: simplyred on February 05, 2013, 03:14:22 PM

When you've hired the person that you believe is right for the job---especially when he has a successful track record---then you have to be patient and give him time to rebuild.  If there is no progress then, eventually, you have to move on.  But as long as things are moving in the right direction (as it is with St. John's) then you can't overreact to each little negative.

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

Little negative??  Losing McCullough and now Lawrence, in back to back recruiting classes and who are both 5 star recruits and potential future NBA front line players is not a little negative.  It changes the whole scheme of things, the whole direction of the program.  Anyone who underestimates the impact that those two players would have had on the program is quite delusional.

I'm not thrilled about it either Linda, but the sky truly is not falling.   

http://zagsblog.com/articles/st-johns-among-those-pursuing-mudiay/
Could be the best player in the '14 class.    Not in NY,  in the whole class.