Rysheed Jordan - PG - Vaux Roberts - Philadelphia, PA - ST. JOHN'S

Quote from: SJU79 on February 19, 2013, 02:14:40 PM

No idea his theory behind it but its not condusive to attracting attacking the rim type pg's

baron davis?

Maybe CR and his library of knowledge can fill us in and let us know if he ran something similar at UCLA back in the day.

Quote from: SJU79 on February 19, 2013, 02:14:40 PM

No idea his theory behind it but its not condusive to attracting attacking the rim type pg's

makes it more obvious why Lindsey left(?)

I think Nuri left because he thought he was better than he actually is. He's averaging 8.5 at Rider.

Since Lavin has been here, we haven't had a big, penetrating PG. I would hold off on saying that his "philosophy" is against it. I think it's more the fact that we lack a player capable of running that type of offense.

Guess I should have clarified I have no idea if Lav would alter his philosophy nor am I being critical of it....simply making a factual observation

It is odd that under Jarvis, we had Erick Barkley [actually recruited by Fran], then Omar [one-and-done] and then Marcus, who was actually a 2 playing point. Then under Norm we had Geno and Malik, two NYC PGs who were mid-major starters or high major off the bench types. Lavin gives the ball to Hardy, taking a page from Jarvis giving Hattan the rock. Last year was point by committee with PGIV, D'Lo and the two quitters Lindsey and Stith.

For a school that claims to be NYC's team...for a City that claims to be the breeding ground of point guards...St John's hasn't had a legitimate D1/NBA caliber point guard in over ten years. Why is it so difficult?

He built his team on being able to run up and down the floor and attack. That's what he recruited his players into.  When you play that way and get these kinds of athletes you are GOING to have turnovers, but I don't understand why anyone would tighten the reigns on kids like Rysheed Jordan or Jamal Branch who are so good at getting to the rim and obviously (as shown by results) we're a more successful team when Branch can control the offense.  We're not good enough at executing in the half court to be able to tighten the reigns and slow things down.  Running false motion is what sets us into offensive lulls.  Gotta give trust to Branch/Harrison (and Jordan if he were to come in) to play into the teams identity (which will naturally lead to some more turnovers but also more wins.

I don't think it's our scheme at is getting us into lulls.  What is getting us into lulls is our lack of a post scorer, some more shooting on the perimeter and our best PG currently in Branch sitting injured.  Green doesn't run the offense well.  Frm everything I've read, the false motion offense is not the easiest to learn and requires some discipline to run.  Our seniors were able to pick it up very well 2 years ago.  This team isn't quite as savy yet.

With that said, ALL teams need to run half-court offense when the break is stopped.  I don't think our problems would be fixed by going to a flex offense, or anything else.  Still comes down to players executing.  It is not our half court style that is inhibiting anybody.  Phil Greene is getting plenty of looks.  He's getting opportunities to attack the hoop. 

We are missing somebody to score inside which allows defenses to, well... not guard the interior.  It takes away some of our game.  Phil isn't a great facilitator either. 

Getting off point too much, but our offense still is designed to push the ball up court at every opportunity, but not to be reckless about it.  I don't see why it would inhibit a Pg like Rysheed from coming here.  What we are missing is a guy like Rysheed and one post scorer.

is the prevailing thought still that he is unlikely to come here if d'angelo stays?

I would think Branch would be more of an issue than D'Lo. But seriously, if any player has thoughts about playing in the league, then they shouldn't be concerned about competing for minutes at the college level. If you can't beat out the teams current player at your position, then either come off the bench until you can, or re-evaluate your pro-prospects. 

I don't love our offense by any means - but I actually think its an awesome offense if you're a guard who can penetrate.  Jordan would light it up under Lavin. 
All we do is run pick and rolls at the top, if you're a guy who can get around that pick and drive hard... you'll score all day. 
Our problem has been we haven't had a ball handler quick enough who can do that, or split the trap when defenses bring that.     But this offense has virtually no post up plays or set 3pt plays.  It's all about the ball handler and a teammate playing pick n roll.   

The only thing that would bother me if I'm a pg is that we spin a wheel every time we run the weave.  And half the time the ball ends up in the hands of a guy other than the pg.   so that would annoy me if I'm used to running the show.    But otherwise this offense is ready made for guys who can take it to the rack.   

Quote from: Gray Chudney on February 19, 2013, 10:55:50 AM

is the prevailing thought still that he is unlikely to come here if d'angelo stays?

I would think Branch would be more of an issue than D'Lo. But seriously, if any player has thoughts about playing in the league, then they shouldn't be concerned about competing for minutes at the college level. If you can't beat out the teams current player at your position, then either come off the bench until you can, or re-evaluate your pro-prospects.

That's just silly.  How can you fault a player for, all things being equal, wanting to play right away? 
If I'm a high school senior this year who's a qb I'm surely not signing with Texas AM or I'm guaranteed to sit on the bench for the next two years.   
I wouldn't hold it against a kid if that was one of his reasons for picking a school.  Seems pretty rationale to me.   

I don't love our offense by any means - but I actually think its an awesome offense if you're a guard who can penetrate.  Jordan would light it up under Lavin. 
All we do is run pick and rolls at the top, if you're a guy who can get around that pick and drive hard... you'll score all day. 
Our problem has been we haven't had a ball handler quick enough who can do that, or split the trap when defenses bring that.     But this offense has virtually no post up plays or set 3pt plays.  It's all about the ball handler and a teammate playing pick n roll.   

The only thing that would bother me if I'm a pg is that we spin a wheel every time we run the weave.  And half the time the ball ends up in the hands of a guy other than the pg.   so that would annoy me if I'm used to running the show.    But otherwise this offense is ready made for guys who can take it to the rack.

I thought guys not getting to the rim because we can't shoot. How our guys getting to rim if other guys packing it in? Whoever puts it on floor driving into traffic. Harrison not getting there, Phil goes halfway, and Branch does ok because he got that little pull up action going. If we had a Rose, or Wall, those types don't take no for an answer. Do we ever get the other guys to spread out? It helps that JaKarr can hit that 15 footer. Dom hits one of those once in a while too. Otherwise it's bombs away. I was hoping Amir would have gotten some baseline stuff going. If I remember right, Moe had some baseline stuff go in, and when guys jumped out, he was able to drive baseline. Anyway, we are putting up some points, but everything seems hard if we don't get run outs.

Both Phil and Dlo have decent mid range games but they keep hoisting up 3s.  Our Frontcourt needs help as it is and more penetration for boards.  I sure hope Lavin has someone big in his sites.

Both Phil and Dlo have decent mid range games but they keep hoisting up 3s.  Our Frontcourt needs help as it is and more penetration for boards.  I sure hope Lavin has someone big in his sites.

I do to.  Because if he doesn't he is either going to be fired or he is going to get a 10 year extension.

I can never keep that stuff straight.

But I know for a fact he reads this board and recruits kids based soley on your expertise and comments.

Quote from: Gray Chudney on February 19, 2013, 02:16:27 PM

Quote from: SJU79 on February 19, 2013, 02:14:40 PM

No idea his theory behind it but its not condusive to attracting attacking the rim type pg's

baron davis?

Maybe CR and his library of knowledge can fill us in and let us know if he ran something similar at UCLA back in the day.

Lav's UCLA Pgs - the first was Cameron Dollar - Cam DID attack the rim, but never finished - seemed like he ALWAYS passed out of penetration - of course, the offense had Charles O'Bannon, Toby Bailey and JR Henderson as attackers waiting for those passes - so the offense did get to the Elite 8.   Cam, however, was injured quite a bit that year.   His backup was starting SF Toby Bailey, who actually played the most at the 1.  when Toby was at the point, yes, attack and finish at the rim.   But Toby was also effective in the set offense as well - he led the Bruins with 155 assists (4.8 a game) that year (very underappriciated kid - finished at UCLA as #4 all time scorer, #6 all time assists, #8 Steals, #14 rebs).

The next PG was Baron Davis - sort of.   Lav's ran essentially a double PG - as Baron and fellow 1998 frosh Earl Watson started from Day 1.   Baron was unstoppable attacking the rim (remember, you likely never saw him at his best - that frosh season ended with a torn ACL, and he was NEVER the same player again) - But Earl was, if anything, stronger.   Believe it or not, Earl was a pt FORWARD in high school.  Made his living either dishing  (9 assists as a hs senior) or banging underneath (14 rebs a game!).    After Baron left, Earl became more of a feeding point than an attacking post - he had Dan Gadzuric, Jerome Moisio (lotto to Boston), JaRon Rush (best of the 3 Rush brothers - alcohol ended his career), Jason Kapono, and Matt Barnes to dish to.   That continued with Lav's final PG - 6'5 Ced Bozeman.   Boze had an injury plagued Bruin career - 7 surgeries in 5 years, including a knee surgery DURING his frosh year, an ACL after his Junior year,  plus off-season hip and shoulder surgeries.  He never really attacked the rim after his first 5 games as a frosh - that's when he went out for surgery.     He had a healthy Junior year - and led the Pac 10 in assissts for Ben Howland's first Bruin team,  then tore the ACL.  He sat out a year, and Jordan Farmar took over the PG spot.   When he came back, instead of b!tching, Ced asked what can I do to help the team.   He was the starting small forward on the 2006 Bruin team that lost to Florida in the National Championship.    He went on to set the D-League record for assists in a game (24), got called up to Atlanat, started 5 games before another injury.   He's had a nice overseas career for the last 7 years or so.  He came back to play in the D-Leauge a couple years ago - put up 18 pts and 9 assists a game.  When he's done playing, I expect he'll be a solid coach someday.

Don't know if that answers the question.    Lav's DOES go with what works with his talent on hand.  It's one of the reasons he plays so many combinations and weird substitution patterns in the 1st half of a season.   He seems to need to see players in game action more so than practice situations.   It's a "drawback" you have to accept with Lavin as your coach.   Players can earn PT in practice, but d@mn well better produce in games to keep it.

cr - would Coach Lavin ever consider recruiting a 5'11" PG again?  If so, Will Ferguson could have been a target for this 2013 class in case Rysheed doesn't pan out.  Has a really good handle, solid passer/vision, and not afraid to take any type of shot, particularly good on little floating pull ups from 12-8 feet.  I watched him in person twice, and I think Huggy will have a steal if he chooses WVU.

cr - would Coach Lavin ever consider recruiting a 5'11" PG again?  If so, Will Ferguson could have been a target for this 2013 class in case Rysheed doesn't pan out.  Has a really good handle, solid passer/vision, and not afraid to take any type of shot, particularly good on little floating pull ups from 12-8 feet.  I watched him in person twice, and I think Huggy will have a steal if he chooses WVU.

? ? ? My understanding is we're recruiting 5'10  Emmanuel Owootoah right now (2014 who reclassified to 2013 last month)..  And Parker Jackson-Cartwright is 5'9 - hes a target in the following year's class.  Steve's final PG recruit at UCLA - recruit, not signee was Aaron Brooks (kid had 2 hats on the table at his signing presser, picked up the Oregon cap, left the UCLA one).   As a High School senior Brooks was 5'10 (pretty sure they list him at 6'0 now - not sure he IS tho!).

But...if it's a choice between an  equally talented 6'2 or  taller PG and a 6'0 or shorter, Steve is likely to concentrate on the bigger kid.

Word out of Philly is Jordan is stringing all these coaches along a bit. It should be interesting who's patience will outlast for Jordan or who pulls out.

I for one have a strong love/hate for Jordan. On one hand his physical tools give him the potential to be something very special and you can't teach that but on the other hand he's such a knuckle head and I don't know if he's ever going to mature past being a knuckle head.

Word out of Philly is Jordan is stringing all these coaches along a bit. It should be interesting who's patience will outlast for Jordan or who pulls out.

I for one have a strong love/hate for Jordan. On one hand his physical tools give him the potential to be something very special and you can't teach that but on the other hand he's such a knuckle head and I don't know if he's ever going to mature past being a knuckle head.

I had a feeling about your 2nd paragraph. 

Word out of Philly is Jordan is stringing all these coaches along a bit. It should be interesting who's patience will outlast for Jordan or who pulls out.

I for one have a strong love/hate for Jordan. On one hand his physical tools give him the potential to be something very special and you can't teach that but on the other hand he's such a knuckle head and I don't know if he's ever going to mature past being a knuckle head.

Hard to say.  Not sure what he's waiting on if he's down to 3.  His tweets make him certainly come across as a knucklehead.  I think/know that Lavin is as patient as can be, and it paid off for Obekpa but might not pay off in all cases.  All depends if we have somebody else worth grabbing instead.  Do we?  I don't know.  Doesn't seem so.  Is Severe that guy?  A scoring PF I don't know about?  Too bad because Jordan is such a talented kid.  Hopefully just misunderstood like D'Lo.

Word out of Philly is Jordan is stringing all these coaches along a bit. It should be interesting who's patience will outlast for Jordan or who pulls out.

I for one have a strong love/hate for Jordan. On one hand his physical tools give him the potential to be something very special and you can't teach that but on the other hand he's such a knuckle head and I don't know if he's ever going to mature past being a knuckle head.

If that is the case i wonder.if he and dee could coexist.

Quote from: Dave on February 20, 2013, 11:19:23 PM

Word out of Philly is Jordan is stringing all these coaches along a bit. It should be interesting who's patience will outlast for Jordan or who pulls out.

I for one have a strong love/hate for Jordan. On one hand his physical tools give him the potential to be something very special and you can't teach that but on the other hand he's such a knuckle head and I don't know if he's ever going to mature past being a knuckle head.

If that is the case i wonder.if he and dee could coexist.

He seems like a good teammate though but then again he is better than all of them.