Which generation is smarter?

" That means all the scores have to be constructed in relation to the median score.  So ever decade or two, they "renormalize" the scores.  What they've found is that the median goes up, I believe something like 20 points each time they renormalize.
 
This means that a what it takes to get a median score now, would have gotten you an above average score a generation ago, would have made you a genius two generations ago.  We're getting smarter, over time.  Similarly, a person who got a median score two generations ago, would not be seen as slow.
 
It's not really fair to say that the scoring system has changed; it's merely been recalibrated.  It's also probably not fair to say the test is harder, except that it has to be harder in order to properly assess the capabilities of people these days.
 
I find this to be a hopeful thing, because it means that our children are doing better than we did.  Knowledge is being learned faster, and children these days need to know much more to be considered average, then they did when we were kids.  I only hope that I can keep up (and I really need to), because it is my job to teach folks in a university."


Fast interpretation: students get smarter with each generation and thus the standards change getting higher and higher. I know you would like to think you had it rough back in the day when nuns hit you. Maybe physically you did, but mentally nowhere as rough as today's students.

I'd also love to see the cost of the average textbook back in the 70's and 80's compared with today's. Today you can easily spend 800-1000 bucks on books alone for college and maybe get 150 back if you're lucky.

Honestly, at any point in your pre-college career did you feel pressure because a place like Finland has a better education system?

Finland does have an excellent education system.  I've been there and am of Finnish background and am a citizen.  Most kids effectively learn 3 languages in schools which are Finnish, Swedish a English.  An amazing feat in and of itself.  With that in mind, Finland's education system and economy is much, much smaller and more workable than the US.  The country has a very small population and it's difficult to compare the US educational system which is much more varied, without the same consistencies across the board.  In the US in some places, you can get a top notch public education and in others a horrid one.  The US has their work cut out though to maintain pace, with little funding priority going into revamping the approach to education in the U.S.  It will only get worse with the fiscal restraints that the US is facing moving forward.  Small countries like Finland don't have the same burdens and barriers. 

USGOV.info: "Increasing at an average of 6 percent per year". So the cost of textbooks is a hell of a lot more than any the older generations had. More tuition costs, much more textbook costs, loans not as easily available, longer tests, more tests, more standards, higher IQ's, harder to get into college, NCLB tests, other countries like China creating added pressure, nearly no jobs, housing too expensive, transportation too expensive, gas too expensive. I can go on and on. The world we live in today is much much much more pressure filled, complicated and tougher that the past. You would probably have to go back to the great depression to find a time that might have had it worse.

"textbook prices nearly tripled from December 1986 to December 2004, while tuition and fees increased by 240 percent"

Quote from: LJSA on October 13, 2011, 12:36:48 AM

Honestly, at any point in your pre-college career did you feel pressure because a place like Finland has a better education system?

Finland does have an excellent education system.  I've been there and am of Finnish background and am a citizen.  Most kids effectively learn 3 languages in schools which are Finnish, Swedish a English.  An amazing feat in and of itself.  With that in mind, Finland's education system and economy is much, much smaller and more workable than the US.  The country has a very small population and it's difficult to compare the US educational system which is much more varied, without the same consistencies across the board.  In the US in some places, you can get a top notch public education and in others a horrid one.  The US has their work cut out though to maintain pace, with little funding priority going into revamping the approach to education in the U.S.  It will only get worse with the fiscal restraints that the US is facing moving forward.  Small countries like Finland don't have the same burdens and barriers. 

and all this time i thought you were lithuanian...

as far as the "discussion"...there were smart people and idiots when i went to high school and there are smart people and idiots today.

i work with a number of 20 somethings...and most are brilliant.  that's just the way it is.

Quote from: MCNPA on October 13, 2011, 02:08:51 AM

Quote from: LJSA on October 13, 2011, 12:36:48 AM

Honestly, at any point in your pre-college career did you feel pressure because a place like Finland has a better education system?

Finland does have an excellent education system.  I've been there and am of Finnish background and am a citizen.  Most kids effectively learn 3 languages in schools which are Finnish, Swedish a English.  An amazing feat in and of itself.  With that in mind, Finland's education system and economy is much, much smaller and more workable than the US.  The country has a very small population and it's difficult to compare the US educational system which is much more varied, without the same consistencies across the board.  In the US in some places, you can get a top notch public education and in others a horrid one.  The US has their work cut out though to maintain pace, with little funding priority going into revamping the approach to education in the U.S.  It will only get worse with the fiscal restraints that the US is facing moving forward.  Small countries like Finland don't have the same burdens and barriers. 

and all this time i thought you were lithuanian...

as far as the "discussion"...there were smart people and idiots when i went to high school and there are smart people and idiots today.

i work with a number of 20 somethings...and most are brilliant.  that's just the way it is.

Half Finn, half Lithuanian

Quote from: newsman13 on October 13, 2011, 05:04:20 AM

Quote from: MCNPA on October 13, 2011, 02:08:51 AM

Quote from: LJSA on October 13, 2011, 12:36:48 AM

Honestly, at any point in your pre-college career did you feel pressure because a place like Finland has a better education system?

Finland does have an excellent education system.  I've been there and am of Finnish background and am a citizen.  Most kids effectively learn 3 languages in schools which are Finnish, Swedish a English.  An amazing feat in and of itself.  With that in mind, Finland's education system and economy is much, much smaller and more workable than the US.  The country has a very small population and it's difficult to compare the US educational system which is much more varied, without the same consistencies across the board.  In the US in some places, you can get a top notch public education and in others a horrid one.  The US has their work cut out though to maintain pace, with little funding priority going into revamping the approach to education in the U.S.  It will only get worse with the fiscal restraints that the US is facing moving forward.  Small countries like Finland don't have the same burdens and barriers. 

and all this time i thought you were lithuanian...

as far as the "discussion"...there were smart people and idiots when i went to high school and there are smart people and idiots today.

i work with a number of 20 somethings...and most are brilliant.  that's just the way it is.

Half Finn, half Lithuanian

and 1/4 Tomas Jasolius

Quote from: LJSA on October 13, 2011, 12:36:48 AM

Honestly, at any point in your pre-college career did you feel pressure because a place like Finland has a better education system?

Finland does have an excellent education system.  I've been there and am of Finnish background and am a citizen.  Most kids effectively learn 3 languages in schools which are Finnish, Swedish a English.  An amazing feat in and of itself. 

Last year when my girlfriend and I went to Denmark/Sweden/Norway every single person there spoke English better than people in our own country.

In Copenhagen they didn't even have accents when speaking English and I swear if you put them here in the US you wouldn't even know they were from a foreign country.

BUT I think it's a lot easier for people to learn foreign languages when they start early. But I also think it's remarkably impressive especially since I can't learn a foreign language for anything except for curse words.

Nathalie aside from learning english early in Peru she also speaks French fluently and pretty decent italian. Yesterday on the subway here in Paris in less than 5 minutes she was giving subway directions to someone in english then to someone in french then to a couple in Spanish. And I still can't even read a subway map. LOL

This got RIDICULOUSLY off topic.

But going to add something to this: almost ALL leading groups of school psychologists and evaluators in the country have come to the conclusion that standardized testing is not an accurate way to test intelligence (more specifically non-cognitive learning) or evaluate schools.  NCLB has been a failure and has really taken life-skills teaching OUT of the schools (which researchers believe is often more important than what is tested) because of the stress that schools feel to get good marks on standardized tests.  It has also been argued that NCLB has caused a WIDER separation gap between low-income and high-income students, because many wealthy towns/cities across the country are re-drawing district lines so that low-income families are no longer included in their school's district, which then raises the overall scores and reputation of the school.  This then leaves districts with a higher percentage of low-income families, which creates the domino effect of less funding and being less of an attractive destination for skilled teachers.  It is a common thought among those that are PROFESSIONALS in education and psychology that NCLB has been a failure.

mj - if it's any consolation we are a nation of linguistic cripples and few of us speak or write our own language well no less anyone else's. The educational system has steadily deteriorated because of its focus on social adjustment rather than knowledge.

I will not attempt to split this topic on my smart phone but rest assured I will tonight.

I will not attempt to split this topic on my smart phone but rest assured I will tonight.

Oh your taking away all the fun

I will not attempt to split this topic on my smart phone but rest assured I will tonight.

Is splitting topics more fun than splitting hairs?

It’s clear that NCLB has had a negative impact as teachers began teaching to a standard and by doing that it detracted from other areas of cognitive development. However, that being said, within that framework kids today are learning things in grade school that people of decades past didn’t learn until High School or College. This holds true especially in American History. When I was young it seemed teachers and books only mentioned the positive things that were done by people and/or government and never told the “whole” story. My son learned about the Trail of Tears when he was in the 3rd or 4th grade along with other realities and I don’t believe that was something that I was taught until I was in HS. I wouldn’t go as far to say kids are more intelligent today though, it appears something has been lost due to the NCLB act so its a wash.       

USGOV.info: "Increasing at an average of 6 percent per year". So the cost of textbooks is a hell of a lot more than any the older generations had. More tuition costs, much more textbook costs, loans not as easily available, longer tests, more tests, more standards, higher IQ's, harder to get into college, NCLB tests, other countries like China creating added pressure, nearly no jobs, housing too expensive, transportation too expensive, gas too expensive. I can go on and on. The world we live in today is much much much more pressure filled, complicated and tougher that the past. You would probably have to go back to the great depression to find a time that might have had it worse.

I read this, and lyrics struck me...." Woke up this morning, what did I see
A big black cloud hanging over me
I switched on the radio and nearly dropped dead
The news was so bad that I fell out of bed
There was a gas strike, oil strike, lorry strike, bread strike
Got to be a Superman to survive
Gas bills, rent bills, tax bills, phone bills
I'm such a wreck but I'm staying alive
[Look in the paper, what do I see,
Robbery, violence, insanity.]
Hey girl we've got to get out of this place
There's got to be something better than this
I need you, but I hate to see you this way
If I were Superman then we'd fly away...."

That came out in '79 in the throes of a heavy global recession....and it was about the closest thing I could tolerate of a remote beat pattern of the dreaded music form known as _ _ _ _ _. Luckily, the Kinks quickly abandoned further thought of it.  although "Wish I Could Fly" was catchy. 

One of most cogent comments of the thread - many of today's students are not being taught, nor are their parents' teaching, critical thinking to the extent they will need in an ever quickly changing world.  I see it first hand with my children, who are all very good students .  At times I have engaging convos with them where they display an ability to process a challenging problem quite well.  Other times ( a bit too many times for me), logic based reasoning,  apparently flies out of the window. 

Like many have mentioned, the education system in the US needs some retooling.  A recent Time piece raised some good points concerning universities' main educational mission and posed this question - Is it to help prepare students for their vocation, or to expose students to farther reaching endeavors such as enlightened thought? Or both? If so, to what extent?  It has been, and currently is, some of both. But a debate will continue to go on as to which area should be emphasized more, especially with jobs becoming more scarce.

Bottom line is life is always challenging, with a high order of critical thinking I believe a person can do well in any field.  I do believe in today's world, there needs to be more of a balance in left brain and right brain thinking.  The world is beginning to shift from a left brain dominant world, but it will take more time.  I'm a left brained engineer, so my advice is go study BioEngineering and if you're "half-good," you'll be able to work for 1,000 years straight.

IMHO today's average kid is smarter than those of 40 years ago-not because of more testing in school- and in fact in NYC the classroom has become preparation for testing and not the knowledge itself-not that it ever was just for the knowledge, but less so today.  There are more sources available  today than there have ever been for the "average kid" to gain information.  IMHO testing has become a burden on the schools and students-at one time teachers were always discouraged from "teaching to the test"- today that is almost all that is done in the NYC Public Schools-we must get the students to score well on this or that test-to hell with what good that knowledge does for them in terms of life and intelligence.  Im sure many other school systems have been forced into teaching to the test because of some of the state and national directives.  Does this all make things harder or easier for students of today as compared to yesteryear-I'm not sure one way or the other.  I do feel that students of today feel more "entitled" than students of my day-yes I'm "Old" relative to the folks on this board (sh@$#t-I'm glad I made it this far-smile, but most "students/kids" of my school years seemed more appreciative of what they got in life.  I put a lot of the blame for that on people like me-parents-who wanted things better and easier for their offspring than they themselves had it.  I also blame the government and school systems for making excuses for kids not taking care of their responsibilities.  Oh-he has ADD or ADHD-or we're not keeping score so no one will have hurt feelings-I'm sure most of you have seen a posting that says, "LIFE IS NOT FAIR-GET USED TO IT!   Seems many kids of today -with encouragement from their parents and schools and government think that life IS FAIR-or should be-Life can't be fair until we are all born the same size,  in the same health, and identical intelligence.

mj - if it's any consolation we are a nation of linguistic cripples and few of us speak or write our own language well no less anyone else's. The educational system has steadily deteriorated because of its focus on social adjustment rather than knowledge.

Agreed.

I will not attempt to split this topic on my smart phone but rest assured I will tonight.

Spend your time learning a foreign language instead of splitting up threads

"I went last year and it was a hoot. I traveled all the way from Hartford, CT... I came out with... and [a] wallet from the vendor ...."

You stole the vendor's wallet?

Quote from: IcemanSTJ on October 11, 2011, 11:29:46 PM

"I went last year and it was a hoot. I traveled all the way from Hartford, CT... I came out with... and [a] wallet from the vendor ...."

You stole the vendor's wallet?

beat him over the head with a basketball!