Norm's offense

Again, I understand why we are doing it. I just don't happen to agree with it.

I do actually agree with you, it's not suited to our personnel at all. I also don't feel that Dunlap has instantly turned into a dumb ass ( I know you didn't say that). We are just in a really tough spot right now.

With all that being said our offense is embarrassing. Now I know coach Lavin has to sign off on everything, but who exactly nominated Dunlap as some kind of genius? Norm Roberts offense was better than this!

This is similar to the one thought I had throughout last night's game....

When do we score in the course of an actual offensive set?    Never.     Unless a play breaks down, we get a turnover, or we get fouled... we simply never score through a set play.   

Obviously it's hard to be too critical, because he's working with such a limited roster (yes, all of whom are freshmen) but at some point I'd like to see Dunlap's coaching prowess start working in our favor.   And on the offensive end, in all the most "coachable" areas, we have been average to poor:
1) Breaking the press
2) Set plays in the half court
3) In bounds, and especially...
4) Plays following a timeout

We're playing 6 freshmen, so it's natural that at times they get lost on the court or make poor decisions with the ball, I'm willing to live with that.   But coming out of a timeout, when he's drawn up a play for the very next possession, there is NO REASON we shouldn't be able to get a good shot off.  If we miss, we miss.    But we're not even getting looks on those possessions.

At one point in the first half after two straight near shot clock violations there was a media timeout, it was obvious to everyone in MSG that Dunlap was telling the guys to be more aggressive and look for entry passes at the foul line or along the baselines, and what happens coming out of that timeout?   Cue the sad Charlie Brown music.... we hold the ball for 35 seconds until Dom is forced to chuck up an off balance three.   

And you could tell it frustrated Dunlap because 20 seconds later, after Louisville scored, he called another timeout.   


This team has plenty of potential, but something has got to change in the half-court.   This team has been practicing together now for 3 months, they have four top 100 recruits in the lineup, I would understand if we can't sustain an efficient offense for a full game to beat a UCONN or a Louisville.   But, we can't even scratch together two good possessions in a row. 

We look better against man to man D, but even that I think is misleading because PC played such horrible defense, in retrospect.   All game we ran that double screen from the foul line extended for D'angelo and Greene.   PC stood there like statutes, all they had to do was slip under the picks and cutoff D'angelo before he wrapped around into the lane.   They didn't make that adjustment.   But that was the most productive set-offense we've had all season.

In summation - I'm not completely impatient or unrealistic, but the offense must be more efficient than this.  It's not October anymore Dunlap, these are talented players, from time to time you should have them in position to score in the half-court. 

Okay y'all for the last time:

Because of the one-on-one nature of AAU to showcase y'self for a schollie as well as the abysmal coachin at that level, let me tell you in the most simple of terms what the vast majority of NCAA frosh dont know how to do:

1. Move witout the ball.

2. Value the ball.

3. Play against a zone D.

4. Set a pick.

5. Play effectively as a PG.

So you wonderin why the O is suckin? It takes a hella amount of time to break down all new players and get them into a team.

Norm had Mason as a junior starter, Lawrence as a senior pg and Burrell, DJ and Evans upfront. Louisville beat them by 35. Norm's offense was terrible. His mistakes were made during the games.

This team doesn't have a point guard. That was a mistake. It has no size. That too was a mistake. They let Ron Roberts walk and in his place took Polee. Another mistake. They took risks on lazy and childish recruits.

We know all of this. This will be a losing season. However, if we don't have any further defections, and our freshman grow up up, we can be competitive next year provided Lavin returns and we can add the rest of the team to the half of a team that we have now.

Quote from: we are sju on January 04, 2012, 10:56:54 AM

There is a wide gap between running and the shot clock violation offense we are currently witnessing.

I don't believe for a second that we wouldn't be pushing the ball up the floor and using 20 - 25 seconds on clock rather than wait until 5 seconds are left to shoot if we didn't want to slow the game down to avoid fatigue.

The defense we're facing has a lot to do with this.  Opponents know we have trouble with outside shooting so they zone us.  We then often fall into the passive toss it around the perimeter until about 5 seconds and heave it up.

Pat Riley had "showtime". Mike D'antoni had "7 seconds or less". Nolan Richardson had "40 minutes of hell".  Dean Smith had "four corners"-(Thankfully obsolete). Tex Winters / Phil Jackson had the "triangle". Dunlap / Lavin have the "shot clock violation offense".

They let Ron Roberts walk and in his place took Polee. Another mistake.

Peeps keep bringin this up.
But whats to say RR wouldnt have transferred if he thought he was being recruited over wit Moe, Jakarr, GG, Pelle, Dom comin in for the frotncourt just like DP?

Quote from: Poison on January 04, 2012, 11:44:54 AM

They let Ron Roberts walk and in his place took Polee. Another mistake.

Peeps keep bringin this up.
But whats to say RR wouldnt have transferred if he thought he was being recruited over wit Moe, Jakarr, GG, Pelle, Dom comin in for the frotncourt just like DP?

You're assuming that RR is a woman like Polee apparently was. He's been a serviceable player in the A10. Not exceptional, and not great, but a guy we could have certainly used.
I don't understand these 18, 19 year old kids that get homesick and miss their mommy. What a bunch of pussies. It's pathetic.

People keep saying they're kids. A kid is 12. A kid is not 19. Unless we are supposed to accept that a college basketball player's maturity level is equal to a kid with severe special needs like autism or some kind of behavior disorder. In all seriousness, that's probably the case with some players. Pelle seems like he's a 12 year old.

Pat Riley had "showtime". Mike D'antoni had "7 seconds or less". Nolan Richardson had "40 minutes of hell".  Dean Smith had "four corners"-(Thankfully obsolete). Tex Winters / Phil Jackson had the "triangle". Dunlap / Lavin have the "shot clock violation offense".

+1 lol

Quote from: Choz4Life on January 04, 2012, 12:16:33 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 04, 2012, 11:44:54 AM

They let Ron Roberts walk and in his place took Polee. Another mistake.

Peeps keep bringin this up.
But whats to say RR wouldnt have transferred if he thought he was being recruited over wit Moe, Jakarr, GG, Pelle, Dom comin in for the frotncourt just like DP?

You're assuming that RR is a woman like Polee apparently was. He's been a serviceable player in the A10. Not exceptional, and not great, but a guy we could have certainly used.
I don't understand these 18, 19 year old kids that get homesick and miss their mommy. What a bunch of pussies. It's pathetic.

People keep saying they're kids. A kid is 12. A kid is not 19. Unless we are supposed to accept that a college basketball player's maturity level is equal to a kid with severe special needs like autism or some kind of behavior disorder. In all seriousness, that's probably the case with some players. Pelle seems like he's a 12 year old.

Being homesick is crap.   These guys leave because they think it's in their best interest, and they will have a better shot at getting to the pros, be it NBA or Europe. 

Polee, Nuri, Momo, Sidiki, it's all the same.    I don't buy homesickness anymore than I do family illnesses.   

Been awhile, but peeps forget that St. John was the beneficiary of transfers some of who was homesick like Reggie Carter (Hawaii) and Mikes Moses (FLA).

And others who was not gettin any PT like Ron Rowan (ND) and Matt Brust (UNC).

And other who want to move up like Lamont Middleton (Hartford) and Alpha (Monmouth).

So its a two-way street. Just been movin in one direction for St. John in the last 20 year or so.

Quote from: we are sju on January 04, 2012, 08:54:00 AM

With all that being said our offense is embarrassing. Now I know coach Lavin has to sign off on everything, but who exactly nominated Dunlap as some kind of genius? Norm Roberts offense was better than this!

This is similar to the one thought I had throughout last night's game....

When do we score in the course of an actual offensive set?    Never.     Unless a play breaks down, we get a turnover, or we get fouled... we simply never score through a set play.   

Obviously it's hard to be too critical, because he's working with such a limited roster (yes, all of whom are freshmen) but at some point I'd like to see Dunlap's coaching prowess start working in our favor.   And on the offensive end, in all the most "coachable" areas, we have been average to poor:
1) Breaking the press
2) Set plays in the half court
3) In bounds, and especially...
4) Plays following a timeout

We're playing 6 freshmen, so it's natural that at times they get lost on the court or make poor decisions with the ball, I'm willing to live with that.   But coming out of a timeout, when he's drawn up a play for the very next possession, there is NO REASON we shouldn't be able to get a good shot off.  If we miss, we miss.    But we're not even getting looks on those possessions.

At one point in the first half after two straight near shot clock violations there was a media timeout, it was obvious to everyone in MSG that Dunlap was telling the guys to be more aggressive and look for entry passes at the foul line or along the baselines, and what happens coming out of that timeout?   Cue the sad Charlie Brown music.... we hold the ball for 35 seconds until Dom is forced to chuck up an off balance three.   

And you could tell it frustrated Dunlap because 20 seconds later, after Louisville scored, he called another timeout.   


This team has plenty of potential, but something has got to change in the half-court.   This team has been practicing together now for 3 months, they have four top 100 recruits in the lineup, I would understand if we can't sustain an efficient offense for a full game to beat a UCONN or a Louisville.   But, we can't even scratch together two good possessions in a row. 

We look better against man to man D, but even that I think is misleading because PC played such horrible defense, in retrospect.   All game we ran that double screen from the foul line extended for D'angelo and Greene.   PC stood there like statutes, all they had to do was slip under the picks and cutoff D'angelo before he wrapped around into the lane.   They didn't make that adjustment.   But that was the most productive set-offense we've had all season.

In summation - I'm not completely impatient or unrealistic, but the offense must be more efficient than this.  It's not October anymore Dunlap, these are talented players, from time to time you should have them in position to score in the half-court.

Great post Desco.

Our kids may be freshmen who dont understand the nuances of playing against a zone just yet, but Dunlap and the staff are not putting them in a position to succeed in the half court by playing to their strengths. Last year we had one guy who could shoot and no height, but Justin Brownlee made a living in the high post- shooting a little 15 footer, passing inside to a cutter, or kicking it out to Hardy. Last night we ran Moe to the foul line once. ONCE. The rest of the time we had four guys pass the ball around the perimeter while the Louisville guys each stood in a four foot circle and just turned whatever direction the ball moved. No in and out on our part; hell we barely ever even get the ball to the baseline. How the hell can you beat a zone if you dont get it to MOVE? We have a bunch of guys that can jump out of the building...how about while we're passing the ball from wing to top key to wing, we set a screen down low and throw an oop to Harkless or Dom just to keep the defense honest? For all the talk around here that Moe is playing out of position at the 4 instead of the 3, I'd argue that as much time as he spends 30 feet away from the basket on the perimeter, he's playing out of position at the TWO. Get him on the baseline or in the paint more so he can operate closer to the hole and offensive board. None of that is kids not knowing how to play against the zone. Thats coaching. Or lack thereof.

As many other posters have pointed out, slowing the ball down to preserve energy is the height of stupidity. You're taking away the greatest strength these kids have right now- their natural aggressiveness and athleticism. We have plenty of time to teach them to be the 69 Knicks. Whats the use of saving all of their energy if they're getting smoked while doing it. Come out attacking...if it doesnt work, they were going to get smoked anyway, and if it does and you're running on fumes or in foul trouble at the end, cross that bridge when you get to it. They have to be able to get their shots in the flow of the offense, whether there's 30 seconds left on the clock or 5.

One last note to the coaching staff: having Amir or Dom on the ball in the 1-1-3 zone is great, but how many more alley oops over 6'2" D'Angelo in the back line of the zone do we have to see before we wise up and put some height back there?

1. Move witout the ball.

2. Value the ball.

3. Play against a zone D.

4. Set a pick.

5. Play effectively as a PG.

Besides #5 which is very hard to teach a kid, all of those things are basics which are taught through grammar school & high school. I am sure someone with a connection to such a highly regarded program as the GAUCHOS would agree that kids are taught these things at a young age, unless you are lumping the Gauchos into the "abysmal coaching" group too.?

I have seen CYO teams that understand 1 - 4 with out many problems.

it wasn't dunlap/keady who went 1-29 out there.  if they went a poor 9-29, we win the game.

in one sequence, stith came into the game and held the ball for a three pointer by pointer with a couple of seconds left..then a shot clock violation.  stith was taken out.  i'd guess that's not the offense dunlap was looking for.  the key to this team is we have no point guard.  period.  justin tuck is an outstanding player...but the football giants would be winless if he replaced eli manning at quarterback.  a point guard is equally important.  we have no point guard.
 
had we put the full court press on momo...or if we knew kyle anderson was coming, these threads would be different.  you know that!

it wasn't dunlap/keady who went 1-29 out there.  if they went a poor 9-29, we win the game.

in one sequence, stith came into the game and held the ball for a three pointer by pointer with a couple of seconds left..then a shot clock violation.  stith was taken out.  i'd guess that's not the offense dunlap was looking for.  the key to this team is we have no point guard.  period.  justin tuck is an outstanding player...but the football giants would be winless if he replaced eli manning at quarterback.  a point guard is equally important.  we have no point guard.
 
had we put the full court press on momo...or if we knew kyle anderson was coming, these threads would be different.  you know that!

If you know you only have one kid who can shoot from the perimeter, and your coach runs an offense which is designed to almost exclusively produce shots from the perimeter, it's the coaches fault.

1. Move witout the ball.

2. Value the ball.

3. Play against a zone D.

4. Set a pick.

5. Play effectively as a PG.

Besides #5 which is very hard to teach a kid, all of those things are basics which are taught through grammar school & high school. I am sure someone with a connection to such a highly regarded program as the GAUCHOS would agree that kids are taught these things at a young age, unless you are lumping the Gauchos into the "abysmal coaching" group too.?

I have seen CYO teams that understand 1 - 4 with out many problems.

You serious wit this?

Son, have u even seen an AAU game? Or been to a camp? ABCD back in the day? Honesdale?

Fundamentals? Fundamentals is borin. Drills is borin. And they dont win games at CYO, AAU or whatever. Talent does.  Bad habits is overlooked for talent. Been that way 4ever. Aint no coachin goin on there. Just rump kissin.

When the playin level is equalized in college, thats when the fundamentals come into play. Thats when you see an upperclassman big who knows automatically to flash to the rightbox key a split second before the 2-2-1 plays the ball in the corner, and the upperclassman wing who knows the passin lane aint there less he sees D3 rotating off the block.

But yeah we dont know shizz at the Choz.

Next thing you gonna say is high school players play D wit they feet, not they hands. Or know how to effectively block out.

They dont. Most college sophs is still be taught how to do that.

Quote from: desco80 on January 04, 2012, 11:20:19 AM

Quote from: we are sju on January 04, 2012, 08:54:00 AM

With all that being said our offense is embarrassing. Now I know coach Lavin has to sign off on everything, but who exactly nominated Dunlap as some kind of genius? Norm Roberts offense was better than this!

This is similar to the one thought I had throughout last night's game....

When do we score in the course of an actual offensive set?    Never.     Unless a play breaks down, we get a turnover, or we get fouled... we simply never score through a set play.   

Obviously it's hard to be too critical, because he's working with such a limited roster (yes, all of whom are freshmen) but at some point I'd like to see Dunlap's coaching prowess start working in our favor.   And on the offensive end, in all the most "coachable" areas, we have been average to poor:
1) Breaking the press
2) Set plays in the half court
3) In bounds, and especially...
4) Plays following a timeout

We're playing 6 freshmen, so it's natural that at times they get lost on the court or make poor decisions with the ball, I'm willing to live with that.   But coming out of a timeout, when he's drawn up a play for the very next possession, there is NO REASON we shouldn't be able to get a good shot off.  If we miss, we miss.    But we're not even getting looks on those possessions.

At one point in the first half after two straight near shot clock violations there was a media timeout, it was obvious to everyone in MSG that Dunlap was telling the guys to be more aggressive and look for entry passes at the foul line or along the baselines, and what happens coming out of that timeout?   Cue the sad Charlie Brown music.... we hold the ball for 35 seconds until Dom is forced to chuck up an off balance three.   

And you could tell it frustrated Dunlap because 20 seconds later, after Louisville scored, he called another timeout.   


This team has plenty of potential, but something has got to change in the half-court.   This team has been practicing together now for 3 months, they have four top 100 recruits in the lineup, I would understand if we can't sustain an efficient offense for a full game to beat a UCONN or a Louisville.   But, we can't even scratch together two good possessions in a row. 

We look better against man to man D, but even that I think is misleading because PC played such horrible defense, in retrospect.   All game we ran that double screen from the foul line extended for D'angelo and Greene.   PC stood there like statutes, all they had to do was slip under the picks and cutoff D'angelo before he wrapped around into the lane.   They didn't make that adjustment.   But that was the most productive set-offense we've had all season.

In summation - I'm not completely impatient or unrealistic, but the offense must be more efficient than this.  It's not October anymore Dunlap, these are talented players, from time to time you should have them in position to score in the half-court.

Great post Desco.

Our kids may be freshmen who dont understand the nuances of playing against a zone just yet, but Dunlap and the staff are not putting them in a position to succeed in the half court by playing to their strengths. Last year we had one guy who could shoot and no height, but Justin Brownlee made a living in the high post- shooting a little 15 footer, passing inside to a cutter, or kicking it out to Hardy. Last night we ran Moe to the foul line once. ONCE. The rest of the time we had four guys pass the ball around the perimeter while the Louisville guys each stood in a four foot circle and just turned whatever direction the ball moved. No in and out on our part; hell we barely ever even get the ball to the baseline. How the hell can you beat a zone if you dont get it to MOVE? We have a bunch of guys that can jump out of the building...how about while we're passing the ball from wing to top key to wing, we set a screen down low and throw an oop to Harkless or Dom just to keep the defense honest? For all the talk around here that Moe is playing out of position at the 4 instead of the 3, I'd argue that as much time as he spends 30 feet away from the basket on the perimeter, he's playing out of position at the TWO. Get him on the baseline or in the paint more so he can operate closer to the hole and offensive board. None of that is kids not knowing how to play against the zone. Thats coaching. Or lack thereof.

As many other posters have pointed out, slowing the ball down to preserve energy is the height of stupidity. You're taking away the greatest strength these kids have right now- their natural aggressiveness and athleticism. We have plenty of time to teach them to be the 69 Knicks. Whats the use of saving all of their energy if they're getting smoked while doing it. Come out attacking...if it doesnt work, they were going to get smoked anyway, and if it does and you're running on fumes or in foul trouble at the end, cross that bridge when you get to it. They have to be able to get their shots in the flow of the offense, whether there's 30 seconds left on the clock or 5.

One last note to the coaching staff: having Amir or Dom on the ball in the 1-1-3 zone is great, but how many more alley oops over 6'2" D'Angelo in the back line of the zone do we have to see before we wise up and put some height back there?

Excellent points re: breaking down a zone, tnice.  Where is the ball movement?  Where are the entry passes to the high post and baselines?  No one is asking for miracles here, but we should be able to get off a shot in the flow of the offense on occasion. 

And I didn't mention anything about our D, but that's another good point; about being beat deep over D'angelo or Phil when we have one of the wings at the top of the zone.   It also seems the staff is starting to fall in love with Garrett in that position, but he needs to stop gambling on every possession.   Every time Garret gambles for a steal, his man blows by him and our zone has to collapse to help out.... leaving the Kuric's and Smith's wide open for a kickout.   That was a frequent occurrence last night.  Hopefully Amir and Dom start staying in front of their man a little more often, allowing the rest of the D to stay home in their areas.   

We mI've without the ball like a Brian Mahoney led Felipe Lopez/Tarik Turner/Zendon Hamilton inspired offense.

Why is it the offense and not the execution? These players' are young and tentative. The game is moving to fast for them right now. They have been so accustomed to simply relying on their athleticism, now they have to learn to think the game. This is a talented group, but it will take time.

All kidding aside I am sure Dunlap / Lavin didn't plan on leading the nation im shot clock violations. Right now that is the offense and it is clear that they are trying to limit the other teams possesions. Regardless of the execution of this ridiculous offense the results fall on the coaching staff.