Norm's offense

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2012, 04:52:52 PM »
Choz - you having standing very tall on that perch of yours lately like some sort of basketball guru.

I never said the Gauchos don't know anything about the game, I asked you if you were lumping your program into the "abysmal coaching" group that you proclaimed AAU hoops were, the last time I checked the Gauchos were an AAU program. I have been watching the Gauchos plays for over 20 years and have brought teams the the gym many times in the past. I would never make a blanket statement like that about AAU hoops but hey, you are expert on the Choz and the Choz are the be all and end all of AAU/youth hoops. It is reassuring to know that you think teaching young players the fundamentals of the game is boring. I wonder if Lou thoughtthat back in the day..?

You took a list of basic basketball skills and said kids are not beinbg taught these things, that is just not true. Then, when you get called out, you try and turn that list into advanced understanding of hoops. As you like tyo say, PLEASE SON.!!!

Coaching at the college level is about taking talent and molding it in a way that fits your team and program. Its not about teaching basics and if kids don't understand the basics when they get to campus they sit their ass on the bench and the kids that get it plays. The kids that don't understand the basics are referred to as RAW or PROJECTS.

Um....

"But these kids now, the coaches are catering to the star players. They don’t want to tell them when they’re messing up. They don’t want to correct things. They end up skating through things in AAU [Amateur Athletic Union], and go to college and still have all these weaknesses in their game."
-Kobe Bryant

“It’s a bad system for developing players. They aren’t learning to handle the ball, they aren’t learning to make plays against pressure. The emphasis with our high-school players is to get exposure and play as many games as you can and show everybody how great you are. If I can win the 11-and-12 year old league and tell all my friends about it, that is a whole lot more important than if my kids actually get any better or learn anything about the game.”
-Stan Van Gundy

 “Coach (Tom) Izzo hates AAU. There’s no strategy, no plays, no fundamentals, just kids running around. We would have open gyms in AAU and our coach wouldn’t even be there most of the time.”
-Russell Byrd, MSU playa

“If you put structure into AAU, no one would play.”
-Michael Beasley.


I think Pat's having a hard time differentiating from the coddled top 100 type kids who get there on pure athletic ability alone and the suburban CYO kids who have none, athletic ability that is.  ; )

Coaching is only as good as the players receptiveness to it is the main point and these kids who think they're NBA ready in 9th grade are not that receptive.

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2012, 05:47:31 PM »
Why is this a secret? If he was asked to leave, why did ESPN and every other source say that he quit?
O
I think it has been hinted at pretty plainly here by a few "in the know" people

I think it is the "my way or the highway" principle.  Nuri was apparently asked to do things I this system he didn't want to do.  Players can't be allowed to dictate terms and run the team.  It is the foremost team-killer.   Dunlap takes the blame because he knows how good Steve Lavin is with the players.  Lavion is the glue and the ultimate player's coach.  It's certainly a contrast in personality to Dunlap's seemingly "tough love" style.  Together they work together well, but there's no doubt than not only Nuri missed Lavin being here but the rest of the kids as well. 

Hope for Lavin's return after this recruiting trip so we can solidify our recruiting and move forward.

Nuri came to play for Lavin, not Dunlap
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 06:58:51 PM by Marco Baldi »

Poison

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2012, 06:11:28 PM »
Why is this a secret? If he was asked to leave, why did ESPN and every other source say that he quit?

I think it has been hinted at pretty plainly here by a few "in the know" people

"In the know" cracks me up.

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2012, 07:29:59 PM »
I like Phil Greene. He played pretty poorly yesterday but he's really good.

 :2funny:

Phil Greene has talent, but right now he's a marginal Big East player. 

boo3

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2012, 07:37:10 PM »
Why is this a secret? If he was asked to leave, why did ESPN and every other source say that he quit?
O
I think it has been hinted at pretty plainly here by a few "in the know" people

I think it is the "my way or the highway" principle.  Nuri was apparently asked to do things I this system he didn't want to do.  Players can't be allowed to dictate terms and run the team.  It is the foremost team-killer.   Dunlap takes the blame because he knows how good Steve Lavin is with the players.  Lavion is the glue and the ultimate player's coach.  It's certainly a contrast in personality to Dunlap's seemingly "tough love" style.  Together they work together well, but there's no doubt than not only Nuri missed Lavin being here but the rest of the kids as well. 

Hope for Lavin's return after this recruiting trip so we can solidify our recruiting and move forward.

Nuri came to play for Lavin, not Dunlap

  So did everyone else in last years class.  Thank god they didn't all quit as well or else we would have to cancel the season. 

MCNPA

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2012, 08:17:18 PM »
I like Phil Greene. He played pretty poorly yesterday but he's really good.

 :2funny:

Phil Greene has talent, but right now he's a marginal Big East player.

That's bogus.  He's not a marginal player.  He's a freshman that isn't lighting the world on fire after being thrust into a very difficult role.  He just doesn't have e luxury to come along at his pace with no veteran guards in front of him that can carry the load.  He's in a tough position and isn't playing badly overall, just not playing to his capability just yet.  He shows flashes, but isn't totally comfortable yet.  Give him time and cut him some slack.  Josiah Turner couldn't even make it off the bench at Zona.  Freshmen take time.  Some more than others.

sju89tr

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #66 on: January 04, 2012, 08:21:50 PM »
I like Phil Greene. He played pretty poorly yesterday but he's really good.

 :2funny:

Phil Greene has talent, but right now he's a marginal Big East player.

That's bogus.  He's not a marginal player.  He's a freshman that isn't lighting the world on fire after being thrust into a very difficult role.  He just doesn't have e luxury to come along at his pace with no veteran guards in front of him that can carry the load.  He's in a tough position and isn't playing badly overall, just not playing to his capability just yet.  He shows flashes, but isn't totally comfortable yet.  Give him time and cut him some slack.  Josiah Turner couldn't even make it off the bench at Zona.  Freshmen take time.  Some more than others.

Nothing wrong with Greene, blame Nuri for leaving and Stith for not being good enough to play ahead of him. He should be playing 15 minutes a game, not 32-35. He will be better by years end because of this training by fire. Love the kids attitude.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 08:22:36 PM by sju89tr »

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #67 on: January 04, 2012, 08:33:54 PM »
I like Phil Greene. He played pretty poorly yesterday but he's really good.

 :2funny:

Phil Greene has talent, but right now he's a marginal Big East player.

That's bogus.  He's not a marginal player.  He's a freshman that isn't lighting the world on fire after being thrust into a very difficult role.  He just doesn't have e luxury to come along at his pace with no veteran guards in front of him that can carry the load.  He's in a tough position and isn't playing badly overall, just not playing to his capability just yet.  He shows flashes, but isn't totally comfortable yet.  Give him time and cut him some slack.  Josiah Turner couldn't even make it off the bench at Zona.  Freshmen take time.  Some more than others.

Phil Grenne wouldn't get much playing time on about 90% of the other teams in our conference.  Im not saying he'll never develop into a really good player, but right now he's very very VERY average. 

I have no problem giving Phil time...I just found it hilarious that someone would say he's really good at this point in his career. 

boo3

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #68 on: January 04, 2012, 09:01:42 PM »
I like Phil Greene. He played pretty poorly yesterday but he's really good.

 :2funny:

Phil Greene has talent, but right now he's a marginal Big East player.

That's bogus.  He's not a marginal player.  He's a freshman that isn't lighting the world on fire after being thrust into a very difficult role.  He just doesn't have e luxury to come along at his pace with no veteran guards in front of him that can carry the load.  He's in a tough position and isn't playing badly overall, just not playing to his capability just yet.  He shows flashes, but isn't totally comfortable yet.  Give him time and cut him some slack.  Josiah Turner couldn't even make it off the bench at Zona.  Freshmen take time.  Some more than others.

Phil Grenne wouldn't get much playing time on about 90% of the other teams in our conference.  Im not saying he'll never develop into a really good player, but right now he's very very VERY average. 

I have no problem giving Phil time...I just found it hilarious that someone would say he's really good at this point in his career.

  I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.  I do believe that you are short changing Phil Greene a bit , IllWill. I like the way he gets into the lane.  Once he develops that little pull up J, and i think he will, he'll be a solid guard for us.

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #69 on: January 04, 2012, 11:49:49 PM »
Believe that Dunlap stating he is most to be blamed for Nuri or words to that effect is Dunlap and St J's taking the hit and the high road and not completely buring Nuri's career. It does not do a program any good or any team college or pro to bad mouth their players or former players. I don't know from an insiders postion but from the outside looking in it seems like Nuri had his own agenda to show case his skills to make money at the next level and did not have the team's interest as his top priority sort of like Santonio Holmes of the Jets. I could be wrong but that is just how I see the whole situation. Best thing was both parties moving on seperately IMHO.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 11:50:43 PM by Celtics11 »

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2012, 12:09:51 AM »
I think the truth lies in people having unrealistic expectations of a 3-4 star frosh SG being asked to play 35 minutes a game out of position.  Tell me what comparably rated frosh do you think Phil should be trying to emulate?  Phil is likely going to be a very good 4 year player who is making a far bigger contribution to this team than should reasonably have been asked of him or expected. 

MCNPA

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2012, 12:15:07 AM »
I think the truth lies in people having unrealistic expectations of a 3-4 star frosh SG being asked to play 35 minutes a game out of position.  Tell me what comparably rated frosh do you think Phil should be trying to emulate?  Phil is likely going to be a very good 4 year player who is making a far bigger contribution to this team than should reasonably have been asked of him or expected.

Well said.

Poison

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2012, 01:00:57 AM »
I think the truth lies in people having unrealistic expectations of a 3-4 star frosh SG being asked to play 35 minutes a game out of position.  Tell me what comparably rated frosh do you think Phil should be trying to emulate?  Phil is likely going to be a very good 4 year player who is making a far bigger contribution to this team than should reasonably have been asked of him or expected. 

Chaz Williams, Scott Machado, Eli Carter, Latif Rivers etc.
All have more than one above average guard skill.

Greene is going to be a good player eventually, but he's not ready to
run the point at this level, and it's not fair for the staff to ask him to.

If it is true that Lindsey was booted, that is very disappointing.

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2012, 03:00:17 PM »
Fun
Thanks for doing the dirty work. When your love of stats backs up my astute observations we could be an unstoppable tag team. If we teamed up more often we could own these boards! lol

Same way it began for Bonnie and Clyde; Cheech and Chong; and Hitler and Mussolini.

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2012, 03:36:47 PM »
Fun
Thanks for doing the dirty work. When your love of stats backs up my astute observations we could be an unstoppable tag team. If we teamed up more often we could own these boards! lol

Same way it began for Bonnie and Clyde; Cheech and Chong; and Hitler and Mussolini.

Ace and Gary

Moose

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2012, 04:59:50 PM »
Fun
Thanks for doing the dirty work. When your love of stats backs up my astute observations we could be an unstoppable tag team. If we teamed up more often we could own these boards! lol

Same way it began for Bonnie and Clyde; Cheech and Chong; and Hitler and Mussolini.

Ace and Gary

Lloyd Christmas and Harry Dunne
Remember who broke the Slice news

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2012, 05:20:04 PM »
Lloyd Christmas and Harry Dunne

Harry got the chicks so that would be me.

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #77 on: January 15, 2012, 04:46:46 AM »
Now before I begin let me state that I understand that we only have 6 and a half players. I also understand that we are young and very small. Furthermore I fully understand we have the worst shooting team in the nation. With all that being said our offense is embarrassing. Now I know coach Lavin has to sign off on everything, but who exactly nominated Dunlap as some kind of genius? Norm Roberts offense was better than this! Now I understand the concept of limiting the opponents attempts in order for the team to try not to lose by 30. But the idea of running down the shot clock is to have movement and try and at least get off a good shot. Princeton used to run the clock down than get back door layups or threes off penetration. Even Norm's offense was designed to have his two"best players" Mase and Geno have the ball as the clock wound down. Under Dunlap whoever has the ball with 2 seconds left is shooting a really bad shot. We have to lead the nation in shot clock violations. So in short if my life depended on it I would have more faith in Geno or Mase firing away from three than have Stith trying to shoot over anyone taller than Peter Dinklage. I think instead of worrying about Lavin's health becoming a problem for recruiting, we should be more worried about our offense. If any kid watches us play they would certainly choose anyone else. In fact I am starting to get afraid we might lose the people we have. It is no coincidence that we played better in the 2nd half of the last two games when we scrapped the shot clock violation offense. I mean it is really basic. We have enough trouble scoring w/o letting the defense rest until there is 5 seconds left on the shot clock.

First of all before you all start your triads on Dunlap, understand that this year, just like last year, dunlap is the main x and o guy. so dont go off giving lav all the credit for last year when in fact dunlap deserves most of the on court credit from last year. lav deserves credit for putting together a top notch staff and for recruiting. by the way, dunlap won the D2 championship as a head coach before he arrived at stj.

as to your ideas about why we are struggling this year, i blame the players i dont blame dunlap. as someone who as been in practices and witnessed what dunlap is trying to teach, it is clear that all have the players havent bought into it. thats why nurideen transfered. these kids didnt even expect to be playing for dunlap they thought they would be playing for lav. on the court they are acting like young kids, who were the best players in their hs or prep school, and now they have to adjust to D1 play. these kids need to mature very quickly if theres any hope for stj this year. they need to start buying into their interim coaches philosophy, if not we will continue to see inconsistent play. frankly im surprised and pleased that we are 8-8 right now and 2-3 in the big east. this is actually better than where i expected us to be at this point, considering the circumstances. I just hope we can finish with winning half of our big east games this year, or at least somewhere close to 50%.
O, God thy sea is so great and my boat is so small

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2012, 04:53:35 AM »
Believe that Dunlap stating he is most to be blamed for Nuri or words to that effect is Dunlap and St J's taking the hit and the high road and not completely buring Nuri's career. It does not do a program any good or any team college or pro to bad mouth their players or former players. I don't know from an insiders postion but from the outside looking in it seems like Nuri had his own agenda to show case his skills to make money at the next level and did not have the team's interest as his top priority sort of like Santonio Holmes of the Jets. I could be wrong but that is just how I see the whole situation. Best thing was both parties moving on seperately IMHO.

90% of all players, in every league of every pro or high revenue amatuer sport have their own agenda, the teams best interest is never top priority .. its never about the team its all about the paycheck. The smart ones realized that a greater paycheck will if the team is successful, and that is motivation to buy into the whole "team concept."
O, God thy sea is so great and my boat is so small

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2012, 09:22:52 PM »
Believe that Dunlap stating he is most to be blamed for Nuri or words to that effect is Dunlap and St J's taking the hit and the high road and not completely buring Nuri's career. It does not do a program any good or any team college or pro to bad mouth their players or former players. I don't know from an insiders postion but from the outside looking in it seems like Nuri had his own agenda to show case his skills to make money at the next level and did not have the team's interest as his top priority sort of like Santonio Holmes of the Jets. I could be wrong but that is just how I see the whole situation. Best thing was both parties moving on seperately IMHO.

90% of all players, in every league of every pro or high revenue amatuer sport have their own agenda, the teams best interest is never top priority .. its never about the team its all about the paycheck. The smart ones realized that a greater paycheck will if the team is successful, and that is motivation to buy into the whole "team concept."
Whatever the reason for buying in to team concept it is what is required for team to be successful and there are successful teams whose players play team ball. From an outsiders viewpoint it did not seem like Nuri bought in to help make the team successful and kept his own agenda above the team ala Santonio Holmes.