Marquette - Game Thread

Quote from: IllWill on January 12, 2012, 03:10:42 PM

Quote from: P1NSTR1PEZ on January 11, 2012, 09:37:57 PM

Just a disgusting game to watch in the 2nd half.

- Inexcusable, careless play that led to every turnover. No excuses for such ineptitude
- This team proved today that besides Harrison NO ONE can shoot when we need a bucket. What happened to an explosive offense? Unless we are running and gunning at the rim, we can't score. Harkless did jack shit, why can't he seem to step up when we need him? Besides the Providence game, he has been MIA in crunch time.
- God's Gift had his best overall performance in that first half.
- Harrison picking up 5 fouls with 9 or so minutes left in the 2nd half is ridiculous, I didn't agree with all 5, but he has to be smarter and pick his spots, he's too valuable.
- Where is Amir Garrett's offense? It's one thing to not know certain plays but this guy all he has done when he gets the ball is stutter step with his left foot and stop dribbling. Pointer can't score unless its a dunk or layup, Greene couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, and Stith still has the ugliest jump shot in college basketball. Too many of these trends seem to be leaking over into each game.
- Here come all the comments of growing pains...yea that's fine and dandy I didn't expect a ton out of this squad but it's been SO DAMN UGLY.
- last but not least, Mike Dunlap is a dunce. He's proved over and over that he can't be a head coach, he didn't make any adjustments in the 2nd half. Marquette opened up with at 9-0 run and he did nothing to change the flow or get us some baskets, no set plays, just a horrific coaching display.

Our recruits, INCLUDING HARKLESS, are a tad bit overrated. 

Halfway thru their first years and they are overrated.
Awesome.

Reading this board, yes they are being overrated by the posters.  Again, Im not sayign they will never develop into big-time player, or good players, but let's be honest:  Dom, Amir and Phil Greene are really limited offensively.  And before we start throwing around the "THEY ARE FRESHMAN!!" rant(s), there have been plenty of freshman who have shown alot more skill than these guys have across america. 

Quote from: IllWill on January 12, 2012, 03:15:14 PM

Quote from: desco80 on January 11, 2012, 10:25:21 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 11, 2012, 10:02:09 PM

Quote from: P1NSTR1PEZ on January 11, 2012, 09:37:57 PM

Just a disgusting game to watch in the 2nd half.

- Inexcusable, careless play that led to every turnover. No excuses for such ineptitude
- This team proved today that besides Harrison NO ONE can shoot when we need a bucket. What happened to an explosive offense? Unless we are running and gunning at the rim, we can't score. Harkless did jack shit, why can't he seem to step up when we need him? Besides the Providence game, he has been MIA in crunch time.
- God's Gift had his best overall performance in that first half.
- Harrison picking up 5 fouls with 9 or so minutes left in the 2nd half is ridiculous, I didn't agree with all 5, but he has to be smarter and pick his spots, he's too valuable.
- Where is Amir Garrett's offense? It's one thing to not know certain plays but this guy all he has done when he gets the ball is stutter step with his left foot and stop dribbling. Pointer can't score unless its a dunk or layup, Greene couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, and Stith still has the ugliest jump shot in college basketball. Too many of these trends seem to be leaking over into each game.
- Here come all the comments of growing pains...yea that's fine and dandy I didn't expect a ton out of this squad but it's been SO DAMN UGLY.
- last but not least, Mike Dunlap is a dunce. He's proved over and over that he can't be a head coach, he didn't make any adjustments in the 2nd half. Marquette opened up with at 9-0 run and he did nothing to change the flow or get us some baskets, no set plays, just a horrific coaching display.

You are a good poster, but this post is ri-#$%^ING-diculous.  Dunlap is a dunce?  Harrison should know better as a freshman?  Garrett should feel comfortable two weeks into a new offense and new defense at a completely new level?  Where is the explosive offense?

C'mon dude.

We were beating Marquette at the half at their place with no depth, no size, and a team of freshman.  We lost Harrison and we lost our chance.  The f'at bastard Gardner was having his way with a buch of tooth picks, but next season Gathers would eat his lunch, Harkless will be a solid 230, and that Precious looking b'astard won't be able to wipe his face without worrying about getting that thrown back at him like every shot he put up on the floor.

Here's the problem...   some posters fall off the deep end after every loss like this (Illwill, Pinstripez etc)  but then half of you overreact in the opposite direction defending the team.   Whether we want to admit it or not --- or whether our emotions will let us think rationally immediately after a loss --- the truth is somewhere in between both these sentiments. 

This game isn't "inexcusable", we're a very short handed, all-freshmen team for crying out loud!   And Moe isn't invisible, nor is Dunlap a "dunce"... at least according to his peers across the college basketball landscape. 

But - at the same time, Marrillac, things aren't all sunshine and rainbows in SJU-land.  And I know you didn't say things we're perfect, but your're providing excuses by giving too much credence to the "we'll be better next year" notion.   One way we'll be better next year is if we make corrections from game to game this season ! 

 We needed to come out with our heads on in the second half and we didn't.  D'angelo may have gotten the short end of the stick from the refs, but he's got to be able to change his game once that becomes a problem.  And Dom, Amir, and Phil need to start to learn to pick up the slack when Harrison is out and teams are denying Moe and GG the ball.   Even if you think of tonight in terms of the big picture, this was a teachable moment and the 3 I just mentioned didn't earn a C ... this was a inarguable  F performance by them in the second half. 

Sky's not falling ... and we certainly are short-handed, but there were a lot of correctable mistakes out there tonight.  Simple as that.

I appreciate being on so many posters' minds while they are posting, but I never "fall off the deep end" mainly because i never had high expectations to begin with.  My complaint(s) have been basically about the ineligible players, and the transfers. 

I will say that Phil Greene has been vastly overrated by many posters here.  And I certainbly fell victim to overrating Harkless.  No, I'm not denying that he is a legit player and should develop into a very good big east player, but after the providence game i think i said he'll go down as a top 3 player in SJU history. 

Moe Harkless has  A LOT to improve on...

Just so I understand. Phil Greene is overrated? The recruit who was the least heralded coming in? The one who has been a pleasant surprise on all accounts? Sure he's struggling but he was recruited to be a role guy and he's now playing 35mpg. Give me a break.

You can give me a break as well while you're at it....Phil Greene is being overrated by some posters on here.  If I had the time, I'd bring up all the posts/threads of people saying how good he will be in a couple of years.  And I'm asking....Based on what? The kid has looked pretty bad...

Quote from: IllWill on January 12, 2012, 03:10:42 PM

Quote from: P1NSTR1PEZ on January 11, 2012, 09:37:57 PM

Just a disgusting game to watch in the 2nd half.

- Inexcusable, careless play that led to every turnover. No excuses for such ineptitude
- This team proved today that besides Harrison NO ONE can shoot when we need a bucket. What happened to an explosive offense? Unless we are running and gunning at the rim, we can't score. Harkless did jack shit, why can't he seem to step up when we need him? Besides the Providence game, he has been MIA in crunch time.
- God's Gift had his best overall performance in that first half.
- Harrison picking up 5 fouls with 9 or so minutes left in the 2nd half is ridiculous, I didn't agree with all 5, but he has to be smarter and pick his spots, he's too valuable.
- Where is Amir Garrett's offense? It's one thing to not know certain plays but this guy all he has done when he gets the ball is stutter step with his left foot and stop dribbling. Pointer can't score unless its a dunk or layup, Greene couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, and Stith still has the ugliest jump shot in college basketball. Too many of these trends seem to be leaking over into each game.
- Here come all the comments of growing pains...yea that's fine and dandy I didn't expect a ton out of this squad but it's been SO DAMN UGLY.
- last but not least, Mike Dunlap is a dunce. He's proved over and over that he can't be a head coach, he didn't make any adjustments in the 2nd half. Marquette opened up with at 9-0 run and he did nothing to change the flow or get us some baskets, no set plays, just a horrific coaching display.

Our recruits, INCLUDING HARKLESS, are a tad bit overrated. 

If the #39 rated recruit in the nation is averaging 15.3 and 8.5 as a freshman, I think that's pretty good.
To create a fair comparison, how is everyone else in this class doing that has been rated comparably?

For example, how is Quin Cook doing?

Yes, that's good...I've said numerous times Moe is our best recruit in years.  But people, including myself, began throwing around the lottery pick talk a little too early...imo

  I don't understand , from a purely on the court analysis, how anyone can be disappointed with any of these players?..  I boggles my mind.  Do they have room for improvement? Of course, they do.  First year players, playing 30-35 minutes a night in the BE.

 To say you had no expectations, but then say everyone is over rated, seems to be a bit contradictory. Or not?  Carry on.

I'm not dissapointed in any of these players...

Your last sentence makes no sense.   

IllWill= had no expectations, or didn't have great expectations

Posters on Johnny Jungle= overrating some of our recruits.


So, how am I contradicting myself?

You can give me a break as well while you're at it....Phil Greene is being overrated by some posters on here.  If I had the time, I'd bring up all the posts/threads of people saying how good he will be in a couple of years.  And I'm asking....Based on what? The kid has looked pretty bad...

Based on him scoring 7 points in under 90 seconds to bring us back vs. Zona.

If that dont make you think he got potential, dont know what will.

Quote from: IllWill on January 12, 2012, 04:22:57 PM

You can give me a break as well while you're at it....Phil Greene is being overrated by some posters on here.  If I had the time, I'd bring up all the posts/threads of people saying how good he will be in a couple of years.  And I'm asking....Based on what? The kid has looked pretty bad...

Based on him scoring 7 points in under 90 seconds to bring us back vs. Zona.

If that dont make you think he got potential, dont know what will.

*not sure if this is sarcasm*

...carry along. 

Quote from: Poison on January 12, 2012, 04:07:27 PM

Quote from: IllWill on January 12, 2012, 03:10:42 PM

Quote from: P1NSTR1PEZ on January 11, 2012, 09:37:57 PM

Just a disgusting game to watch in the 2nd half.

- Inexcusable, careless play that led to every turnover. No excuses for such ineptitude
- This team proved today that besides Harrison NO ONE can shoot when we need a bucket. What happened to an explosive offense? Unless we are running and gunning at the rim, we can't score. Harkless did jack shit, why can't he seem to step up when we need him? Besides the Providence game, he has been MIA in crunch time.
- God's Gift had his best overall performance in that first half.
- Harrison picking up 5 fouls with 9 or so minutes left in the 2nd half is ridiculous, I didn't agree with all 5, but he has to be smarter and pick his spots, he's too valuable.
- Where is Amir Garrett's offense? It's one thing to not know certain plays but this guy all he has done when he gets the ball is stutter step with his left foot and stop dribbling. Pointer can't score unless its a dunk or layup, Greene couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, and Stith still has the ugliest jump shot in college basketball. Too many of these trends seem to be leaking over into each game.
- Here come all the comments of growing pains...yea that's fine and dandy I didn't expect a ton out of this squad but it's been SO DAMN UGLY.
- last but not least, Mike Dunlap is a dunce. He's proved over and over that he can't be a head coach, he didn't make any adjustments in the 2nd half. Marquette opened up with at 9-0 run and he did nothing to change the flow or get us some baskets, no set plays, just a horrific coaching display.

Our recruits, INCLUDING HARKLESS, are a tad bit overrated. 

If the #39 rated recruit in the nation is averaging 15.3 and 8.5 as a freshman, I think that's pretty good.
To create a fair comparison, how is everyone else in this class doing that has been rated comparably?

For example, how is Quin Cook doing?

Yes, that's good...I've said numerous times Moe is our best recruit in years.  But people, including myself, began throwing around the lottery pick talk a little too early...imo

I did not throw around the lottery pick idea. Not for a second. He is not overrated. He is not a lottery pick either.

  "and before we start throwing around the "THEY ARE FRESHMAN!!" rant(s), there have been plenty of freshman who have shown alot more skill than these guys have across america.  "   IllWIll
 

 Are we supposed to judge these guys against the Carmelo Anthony's of the world?  Anthony Davis?  Are you talking about freshmen this season? If so, by all means,  show me the kids playing 30-35 minutes a night in a major conference, and performing well.  I can honestly say that, IMO, non of our freshmen are playing "badly". All have shown signs of being good to great players in the BE in the future.

 Do fans on forums over rate their recruits?  umm..  of course they do.  We try not to shit on our players , at least until they transfer or flunk out (  thats for WASJU).  I'm not sure what your looking for.

 You say you have no expectations and love these kids, but act like they should be better than they are.  I'm confused. Not the first time, nor the last. 

Quote from: IllWill on January 12, 2012, 03:10:42 PM

Quote from: P1NSTR1PEZ on January 11, 2012, 09:37:57 PM

Just a disgusting game to watch in the 2nd half.

- Inexcusable, careless play that led to every turnover. No excuses for such ineptitude
- This team proved today that besides Harrison NO ONE can shoot when we need a bucket. What happened to an explosive offense? Unless we are running and gunning at the rim, we can't score. Harkless did jack shit, why can't he seem to step up when we need him? Besides the Providence game, he has been MIA in crunch time.
- God's Gift had his best overall performance in that first half.
- Harrison picking up 5 fouls with 9 or so minutes left in the 2nd half is ridiculous, I didn't agree with all 5, but he has to be smarter and pick his spots, he's too valuable.
- Where is Amir Garrett's offense? It's one thing to not know certain plays but this guy all he has done when he gets the ball is stutter step with his left foot and stop dribbling. Pointer can't score unless its a dunk or layup, Greene couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, and Stith still has the ugliest jump shot in college basketball. Too many of these trends seem to be leaking over into each game.
- Here come all the comments of growing pains...yea that's fine and dandy I didn't expect a ton out of this squad but it's been SO DAMN UGLY.
- last but not least, Mike Dunlap is a dunce. He's proved over and over that he can't be a head coach, he didn't make any adjustments in the 2nd half. Marquette opened up with at 9-0 run and he did nothing to change the flow or get us some baskets, no set plays, just a horrific coaching display.

Our recruits, INCLUDING HARKLESS, are a tad bit overrated. 

If the #39 rated recruit in the nation is averaging 15.3 and 8.5 as a freshman, I think that's pretty good.
To create a fair comparison, how is everyone else in this class doing that has been rated comparably?

For example, how is Quin Cook doing?

I'm not a supporter of this "overrated" nonsense.  Moe's got all the talent in the world, I think that's clear. 

But, to be fair, Quinn Cook is playing 12 minutes a night.   How many other freshmen are playing 35mpg?    Moe's been great, but it's hard to find a good comparison for our guys.   The only other freshmen getting major minutes like ours are the Teagues, Glichrists, Rivers, Plumlee at IU etc, and they were expected to be All-World. 

And, FWIW I don't think anyone ever said Moe was a lottery pick this year.   Many posters have said they think he will be following his soph or junior season.  And I've seen nothing that would indicate he won't be.   

Guys are drafted based on potential, that's been pointed out ad nauseum, but just because Moe may never dominate a college game like Hardy or Scottie Reynolds or Hatten did ... doesn't mean he won't be a top 10 pick and make millions in the NBA.   It's a different animal.   

Quote from: IllWill on January 12, 2012, 03:10:42 PM

Quote from: P1NSTR1PEZ on January 11, 2012, 09:37:57 PM

Just a disgusting game to watch in the 2nd half.

- Inexcusable, careless play that led to every turnover. No excuses for such ineptitude
- This team proved today that besides Harrison NO ONE can shoot when we need a bucket. What happened to an explosive offense? Unless we are running and gunning at the rim, we can't score. Harkless did jack shit, why can't he seem to step up when we need him? Besides the Providence game, he has been MIA in crunch time.
- God's Gift had his best overall performance in that first half.
- Harrison picking up 5 fouls with 9 or so minutes left in the 2nd half is ridiculous, I didn't agree with all 5, but he has to be smarter and pick his spots, he's too valuable.
- Where is Amir Garrett's offense? It's one thing to not know certain plays but this guy all he has done when he gets the ball is stutter step with his left foot and stop dribbling. Pointer can't score unless its a dunk or layup, Greene couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, and Stith still has the ugliest jump shot in college basketball. Too many of these trends seem to be leaking over into each game.
- Here come all the comments of growing pains...yea that's fine and dandy I didn't expect a ton out of this squad but it's been SO DAMN UGLY.
- last but not least, Mike Dunlap is a dunce. He's proved over and over that he can't be a head coach, he didn't make any adjustments in the 2nd half. Marquette opened up with at 9-0 run and he did nothing to change the flow or get us some baskets, no set plays, just a horrific coaching display.

Our recruits, INCLUDING HARKLESS, are a tad bit overrated. 

If the #39 rated recruit in the nation is averaging 15.3 and 8.5 as a freshman, I think that's pretty good.
To create a fair comparison, how is everyone else in this class doing that has been rated comparably?

For example, how is Quin Cook doing?

Higher ranked BE players that Harkless is outperforming include Michael Carter-Williams, Deandre Daniels, Otto Porter.  Other higher ranked guys at his position (besides Dom), Rodney Hood, Michael Gbinje, Dorian Finney-Smith, and Lebryan Nash.  He's doing slightly to considerably better than all of them and they were all more highly rated and many of them are playing major minutes as well.

I know we all want to be undefeated and have the guys play like top 10 recruits with 2 years experience but anyone looking at it objectively can see these guys are performing very well considering the circumstances.

Carter-Williams has 3 All American guards in front of him. I think Quinn Cook is a better comparison. He's not playing because he's not that good. Duke is not the Duke we usually see.

Mo will probably be a lottery pick his JR year. I think Harrison has a good shot at the NBA but he will be a 4 year player,which is good for us. Amir hasnt even played enough games to evaluate. As mentioned a 1000 times not only are we young but we only play 7 players so we have to alter the game plan. I really believe with the addition of Branch and a few bigs we will be a top 25 team next year.

  "and before we start throwing around the "THEY ARE FRESHMAN!!" rant(s), there have been plenty of freshman who have shown alot more skill than these guys have across america.  "   IllWIll
 

 Are we supposed to judge these guys against the Carmelo Anthony's of the world?  Anthony Davis?  Are you talking about freshmen this season? If so, by all means,  show me the kids playing 30-35 minutes a night in a major conference, and performing well.  I can honestly say that, IMO, non of our freshmen are playing "badly". All have shown signs of being good to great players in the BE in the future.

 Do fans on forums over rate their recruits?  umm..  of course they do.  We try not to shit on our players , at least until they transfer or flunk out (  thats for WASJU).  I'm not sure what your looking for.

 You say you have no expectations and love these kids, but act like they should be better than they are.  I'm confused. Not the first time, nor the last. 

Continue the good fight, boo (and a few others).  There is a reason why I really haven't engaged in conversations of late. 

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be shocked if some Lavin haters from the UCLA boards were here pretending to be dissatisfied St. John's fans.  If our real fans allow them to drive us away, then it kills these boards for rest of us.

Quote from: IllWill on January 12, 2012, 03:10:42 PM

Quote from: P1NSTR1PEZ on January 11, 2012, 09:37:57 PM

Just a disgusting game to watch in the 2nd half.

- Inexcusable, careless play that led to every turnover. No excuses for such ineptitude
- This team proved today that besides Harrison NO ONE can shoot when we need a bucket. What happened to an explosive offense? Unless we are running and gunning at the rim, we can't score. Harkless did jack shit, why can't he seem to step up when we need him? Besides the Providence game, he has been MIA in crunch time.
- God's Gift had his best overall performance in that first half.
- Harrison picking up 5 fouls with 9 or so minutes left in the 2nd half is ridiculous, I didn't agree with all 5, but he has to be smarter and pick his spots, he's too valuable.
- Where is Amir Garrett's offense? It's one thing to not know certain plays but this guy all he has done when he gets the ball is stutter step with his left foot and stop dribbling. Pointer can't score unless its a dunk or layup, Greene couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, and Stith still has the ugliest jump shot in college basketball. Too many of these trends seem to be leaking over into each game.
- Here come all the comments of growing pains...yea that's fine and dandy I didn't expect a ton out of this squad but it's been SO DAMN UGLY.
- last but not least, Mike Dunlap is a dunce. He's proved over and over that he can't be a head coach, he didn't make any adjustments in the 2nd half. Marquette opened up with at 9-0 run and he did nothing to change the flow or get us some baskets, no set plays, just a horrific coaching display.

Our recruits, INCLUDING HARKLESS, are a tad bit overrated. 

If the #39 rated recruit in the nation is averaging 15.3 and 8.5 as a freshman, I think that's pretty good.
To create a fair comparison, how is everyone else in this class doing that has been rated comparably?

For example, how is Quin Cook doing?

Not a fair comparison to compare our freshman's stats with stats of freshman on any other teams because I doubt any other team's freshman joined a team with no returning players (i don't count Stith) because this team has 100% of its points, rebs.assists etc. up for grabs between all the freshman. Someone has to score some points. Not the same as coming to a team with some established players where there are just not that many points available to newcomers. this is not to take anything away from our freshman who I like very much just that comparisons are not really fair when it comes to stats.

Quote from: Choz4Life on January 12, 2012, 04:28:11 PM

Quote from: IllWill on January 12, 2012, 04:22:57 PM

You can give me a break as well while you're at it....Phil Greene is being overrated by some posters on here.  If I had the time, I'd bring up all the posts/threads of people saying how good he will be in a couple of years.  And I'm asking....Based on what? The kid has looked pretty bad...

Based on him scoring 7 points in under 90 seconds to bring us back vs. Zona.

If that dont make you think he got potential, dont know what will.

*not sure if this is sarcasm*

...carry along.

If you're not a troll, you are the biggest pessimist I've ever encountered. We are 8-8 and have 2 BE wins. One over a very good Cincinnati team, and another over a Providence team that just beat Louisville by 31 points. I think you are missing the point of "potential."

And if you honestly think Harkless is overrated, I don't know what to tell you, you're lost. Did you expect him to be Anthony Davis? Maybe you expected Kevin Durant at Texas?

Is D'Angelo overrated too? The guy who is the catalyst of the team who just won Freshman of the week? Your act is getting old.

Quote from: boo3 on January 12, 2012, 04:01:23 PM

  I don't understand , from a purely on the court analysis, how anyone can be disappointed with any of these players?..  I boggles my mind.  Do they have room for improvement? Of course, they do.  First year players, playing 30-35 minutes a night in the BE.

 To say you had no expectations, but then say everyone is over rated, seems to be a bit contradictory. Or not?  Carry on.

I'm not dissapointed in any of these players...

Your last sentence makes no sense.   

IllWill= had no expectations, or didn't have great expectations

Posters on Johnny Jungle= overrating some of our recruits.


So, how am I contradicting myself?

Why do you choose to alienate yourself? It seems like you're just asking for trouble.

If you don't like it here, no one is asking you to continually come back and read what they have to say.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be shocked if some Lavin haters from the UCLA boards were here pretending to be dissatisfied St. John's fans.  If our real fans allow them to drive us away, then it kills these boards for rest of us.

If I was a UCLA fan, I'd have my own disappointment to contend with first.

Just so I understand. Phil Greene is overrated? The recruit who was the least heralded coming in? The one who has been a pleasant surprise on all accounts? Sure he's struggling but he was recruited to be a role guy and he's now playing 35mpg. Give me a break.

Yes, but before the beginning of the season we read this from Jon Rothstein (Phillip Greene thread, page 6): St. John's coach Steve Lavin said freshman guard Phil Greene has been impressive in workouts.