Discouraged team

You can actually see it, even through the TV. I do not know the answer and I am not sure much can be done to change outcomes of games but let us retrace how we got here.
-Kids come in as part of the most highly publicized recruiting class in SJU history going to play for a program coached by well known coach coming off an NCAA bid and a seemingly on the rise.
-Three kids ineligible making team not only the youngest in BE, but thinnest as well.
-Instead of playing for former UCLA coach, ESPN commentator you find yourself playing for goofy looking dude who always looks like he is sucking on a lemon who you probably never heard of until last year.
-Nuri debacle leaves you less talented and even thinner.
-Kids who have probably only known success start getting crushed even by lesser BE teams in half empty hockey arenas.
-Most of the kids are not local and therefore they don't have their support system when things go bad.
-You are playing probably the least fun offense in the world.
-You have a couple games coming up where you are probably going to lose by 30

Now while I concede there is probably not much that can be done from a won loss perspective or even to keep games close, I do have a suggestion. While not much can be done about all the things listed that got us to this point, one thing can easily be adjusted. The offense needs to be loosened. I know we do not have the personal to doing any kind of running but let the kids go a little. The kids were being asked to play defense then hold on to the ball until 3 seconds in the shot clock. Let the kids have some fun. I agree with the thread about Harrison now looking tentative. On TV they constantly call out Harkless for not being aggressive. That is our offense! Whoever has the ball at the end of the shot clock is putting up a bad shot. You can't have the kids go through all of what they went through expect them to play tough D then make them play the shot clock violation offense. Lossen things up are you are going to lose the team for the season and I fear transfers will follow.

You can actually see it, even through the TV. I do not know the answer and I am not sure much can be done to change outcomes of games but let us retrace how we got here.
-Kids come in as part of the most highly publicized recruiting class in SJU history going to play for a program coached by well known coach coming off an NCAA bid and a seemingly on the rise.
-Three kids ineligible making team not only the youngest in BE, but thinnest as well.
-Instead of playing for former UCLA coach, ESPN commentator you find yourself playing for goofy looking dude who always looks like he is sucking on a lemon who you probably never heard of until last year.
-Nuri debacle leaves you less talented and even thinner.
-Kids who have probably only known success start getting crushed even by lesser BE teams in half empty hockey arenas.
-Most of the kids are not local and therefore they don't have their support system when things go bad.
-You are playing probably the least fun offense in the world.
-You have a couple games coming up where you are probably going to lose by 30

Now while I concede there is probably not much that can be done from a won loss perspective or even to keep games close, I do have a suggestion. While not much can be done about all the things listed that got us to this point, one thing can easily be adjusted. The offense needs to be loosened. I know we do not have the personal to doing any kind of running but let the kids go a little. The kids were being asked to play defense then hold on to the ball until 3 seconds in the shot clock. Let the kids have some fun. I agree with the thread about Harrison now looking tentative. On TV they constantly call out Harkless. That is our offense. Whoever has the ball at the end of the shot clock is putting up a bad shot. You can't have the kids go through all of what they went through expect them to play tough D then make them play the shot clock violation offense. Lossen things up are you are going to lose the team for the season and I fear transfers will follow.

Sky is falling because I agree.

I also agree. At some point, and that point is now, I think, you have to stop trying to teach these kid lessons of holding onto ball and doing anything to win, and start allowing them to enjoy playing...even if it results in less of a chance to win.  We are not going anywhere this year regardless of whether we essentially play the stall offense or the seven seconds or less offense, BUT, the kids will feel better about themselves if they are playing a fun offense knowing they will be getting reinforcements for next year.   I'm not saying we should totally let them loose and disregard all of the smart basketball principles dunlap is instilling in them, but let them have some fun.  We need these kids happy about their first season to some extent so they don't transfer, esp considering, as wasju pointed out, many are not from nyc, and prob have some ppl at home in their ears...

I also agree. At some point, and that point is now, I think, you have to stop trying to teach these kid lessons of holding onto ball and doing anything to win, and start allowing them to enjoy playing...even if it results in less of a chance to win.  We are not going anywhere this year regardless of whether we essentially play the stall offense or the seven seconds or less offense, BUT, the kids will feel better about themselves if they are playing a fun offense knowing they will be getting reinforcements for next year.   I'm not saying we should totally let them loose and disregard all of the smart basketball principles dunlap is instilling in them, but let them have some fun.  We need these kids happy about their first season to some extent so they don't transfer, esp considering, as wasju pointed out, many are not from nyc, and prob have some ppl at home in their ears...

Also don't want recruits seeing misreable players on tv.

No reason why the walk-ons havent seen any development at this point. No reason why a walk on can't get five minutes of light to relieve Mo, or D or SirDom. That will keep the scholarship players legs a little fresher for the second half.

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 19, 2012, 09:08:45 AM

I also agree. At some point, and that point is now, I think, you have to stop trying to teach these kid lessons of holding onto ball and doing anything to win, and start allowing them to enjoy playing...even if it results in less of a chance to win.  We are not going anywhere this year regardless of whether we essentially play the stall offense or the seven seconds or less offense, BUT, the kids will feel better about themselves if they are playing a fun offense knowing they will be getting reinforcements for next year.   I'm not saying we should totally let them loose and disregard all of the smart basketball principles dunlap is instilling in them, but let them have some fun.  We need these kids happy about their first season to some extent so they don't transfer, esp considering, as wasju pointed out, many are not from nyc, and prob have some ppl at home in their ears...

Also don't want recruits seeing misreable players on tv.

What recruits are also seeing is plenty of PT because of a short-handed team of freshmen are getting consistently beat up in the second half because the team simply needs more depth, balance and able bodies. 

I appreciate the sentiment associated with this thread, but I'm putting my faith in Lavin to get these kids through this rough stretch.  It's not like he's in a coma and doesn't see what we're seeing.  I'm sure he'll be pep talking the hell out of these kids as things get tougher (and they will).     

No reason why the walk-ons havent seen any development at this point. No reason why a walk on can't get five minutes of light to relieve Mo, or D or SirDom. That will keep the scholarship players legs a little fresher for the second half.

They are not good and will never play.  330 something D1 schools with 13 scholarships each.  That close to 4300 players and they were at STJ not playing ball.  Start factoring in D2 and maybe even D3 and its why they aren't playing.  These aren't preferred walkons like Andre Stanley, Phil Missere or the Lee Melancholy (totally butchered his last name) from Duke.

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:13:19 AM

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 19, 2012, 09:08:45 AM

I also agree. At some point, and that point is now, I think, you have to stop trying to teach these kid lessons of holding onto ball and doing anything to win, and start allowing them to enjoy playing...even if it results in less of a chance to win.  We are not going anywhere this year regardless of whether we essentially play the stall offense or the seven seconds or less offense, BUT, the kids will feel better about themselves if they are playing a fun offense knowing they will be getting reinforcements for next year.   I'm not saying we should totally let them loose and disregard all of the smart basketball principles dunlap is instilling in them, but let them have some fun.  We need these kids happy about their first season to some extent so they don't transfer, esp considering, as wasju pointed out, many are not from nyc, and prob have some ppl at home in their ears...

Also don't want recruits seeing misreable players on tv.

What recruits are also seeing is plenty of PT because of a short-handed team of freshmen are getting consistently beat up in the second half because the team simply needs more depth, balance and able bodies. 

I appreciate the sentiment associated with this thread, but I'm putting my faith in Lavin to get these kids through this rough stretch.  It's not like he's in a coma and doesn't see what we're seeing.  I'm sure he'll be pep talking the hell out of these kids as things get tougher (and they will).     

What recruits are also seeing is an offense in a coma.

Quote from: DFF6 on January 19, 2012, 09:27:29 AM

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:13:19 AM

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 19, 2012, 09:08:45 AM

I also agree. At some point, and that point is now, I think, you have to stop trying to teach these kid lessons of holding onto ball and doing anything to win, and start allowing them to enjoy playing...even if it results in less of a chance to win.  We are not going anywhere this year regardless of whether we essentially play the stall offense or the seven seconds or less offense, BUT, the kids will feel better about themselves if they are playing a fun offense knowing they will be getting reinforcements for next year.   I'm not saying we should totally let them loose and disregard all of the smart basketball principles dunlap is instilling in them, but let them have some fun.  We need these kids happy about their first season to some extent so they don't transfer, esp considering, as wasju pointed out, many are not from nyc, and prob have some ppl at home in their ears...

Also don't want recruits seeing misreable players on tv.

What recruits are also seeing is plenty of PT because of a short-handed team of freshmen are getting consistently beat up in the second half because the team simply needs more depth, balance and able bodies. 

I appreciate the sentiment associated with this thread, but I'm putting my faith in Lavin to get these kids through this rough stretch.  It's not like he's in a coma and doesn't see what we're seeing.  I'm sure he'll be pep talking the hell out of these kids as things get tougher (and they will).     

What recruits are also seeing is an offense in a coma.

Many of our games are on regional tv.  I'm sure they aren't seeing those games.       

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:28:20 AM

Quote from: DFF6 on January 19, 2012, 09:27:29 AM

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:13:19 AM

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 19, 2012, 09:08:45 AM

I also agree. At some point, and that point is now, I think, you have to stop trying to teach these kid lessons of holding onto ball and doing anything to win, and start allowing them to enjoy playing...even if it results in less of a chance to win.  We are not going anywhere this year regardless of whether we essentially play the stall offense or the seven seconds or less offense, BUT, the kids will feel better about themselves if they are playing a fun offense knowing they will be getting reinforcements for next year.   I'm not saying we should totally let them loose and disregard all of the smart basketball principles dunlap is instilling in them, but let them have some fun.  We need these kids happy about their first season to some extent so they don't transfer, esp considering, as wasju pointed out, many are not from nyc, and prob have some ppl at home in their ears...

Also don't want recruits seeing misreable players on tv.

What recruits are also seeing is plenty of PT because of a short-handed team of freshmen are getting consistently beat up in the second half because the team simply needs more depth, balance and able bodies. 

I appreciate the sentiment associated with this thread, but I'm putting my faith in Lavin to get these kids through this rough stretch.  It's not like he's in a coma and doesn't see what we're seeing.  I'm sure he'll be pep talking the hell out of these kids as things get tougher (and they will).     

What recruits are also seeing is an offense in a coma.

Many of our games are on regional tv.  I'm sure they aren't seeing those games.   

I wouldn't worry... recruits prefer this brand of basketball.  Who wouldn't want to play "an exciting up-tempo baseline-to-baseline attack style of basketball" ? 

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:28:20 AM

Quote from: DFF6 on January 19, 2012, 09:27:29 AM

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:13:19 AM

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 19, 2012, 09:08:45 AM

I also agree. At some point, and that point is now, I think, you have to stop trying to teach these kid lessons of holding onto ball and doing anything to win, and start allowing them to enjoy playing...even if it results in less of a chance to win.  We are not going anywhere this year regardless of whether we essentially play the stall offense or the seven seconds or less offense, BUT, the kids will feel better about themselves if they are playing a fun offense knowing they will be getting reinforcements for next year.   I'm not saying we should totally let them loose and disregard all of the smart basketball principles dunlap is instilling in them, but let them have some fun.  We need these kids happy about their first season to some extent so they don't transfer, esp considering, as wasju pointed out, many are not from nyc, and prob have some ppl at home in their ears...

Also don't want recruits seeing misreable players on tv.

What recruits are also seeing is plenty of PT because of a short-handed team of freshmen are getting consistently beat up in the second half because the team simply needs more depth, balance and able bodies. 

I appreciate the sentiment associated with this thread, but I'm putting my faith in Lavin to get these kids through this rough stretch.  It's not like he's in a coma and doesn't see what we're seeing.  I'm sure he'll be pep talking the hell out of these kids as things get tougher (and they will).     

What recruits are also seeing is an offense in a coma.

Many of our games are on regional tv.  I'm sure they aren't seeing those games.       

Aren't all games either live or archived on ESPN3?

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 19, 2012, 09:29:53 AM

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:28:20 AM

Quote from: DFF6 on January 19, 2012, 09:27:29 AM

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:13:19 AM

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 19, 2012, 09:08:45 AM

I also agree. At some point, and that point is now, I think, you have to stop trying to teach these kid lessons of holding onto ball and doing anything to win, and start allowing them to enjoy playing...even if it results in less of a chance to win.  We are not going anywhere this year regardless of whether we essentially play the stall offense or the seven seconds or less offense, BUT, the kids will feel better about themselves if they are playing a fun offense knowing they will be getting reinforcements for next year.   I'm not saying we should totally let them loose and disregard all of the smart basketball principles dunlap is instilling in them, but let them have some fun.  We need these kids happy about their first season to some extent so they don't transfer, esp considering, as wasju pointed out, many are not from nyc, and prob have some ppl at home in their ears...

Also don't want recruits seeing misreable players on tv.

What recruits are also seeing is plenty of PT because of a short-handed team of freshmen are getting consistently beat up in the second half because the team simply needs more depth, balance and able bodies. 

I appreciate the sentiment associated with this thread, but I'm putting my faith in Lavin to get these kids through this rough stretch.  It's not like he's in a coma and doesn't see what we're seeing.  I'm sure he'll be pep talking the hell out of these kids as things get tougher (and they will).     

What recruits are also seeing is an offense in a coma.

Many of our games are on regional tv.  I'm sure they aren't seeing those games.       

Aren't all games either live or archived on ESPN3?

Possibly.  But, I doubt most kids today take the time to watch an archived game. 

What recruits are also seeing is plenty of PT because of a short-handed team of freshmen are getting consistently beat up in the second half because the team simply needs more depth, balance and able bodies. 

I appreciate the sentiment associated with this thread, but I'm putting my faith in Lavin to get these kids through this rough stretch.  It's not like he's in a coma and doesn't see what we're seeing.  I'm sure he'll be pep talking the hell out of these kids as things get tougher (and they will).     


While we all understand Lavin's situation, the fact is when they are losing to Duke by 40 and the Cameron goofballs(no offense Kid) are chanting goofy things at them, they wont have Lavin to turn to but instead they will have sourface.

I also disagree with your point about the recruiting. The kind of kids Lavin is trying to recruit could probably play anywhere. Norm type recruits would be willing to come here just for the promise of PT.

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 19, 2012, 09:29:53 AM

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:28:20 AM

Quote from: DFF6 on January 19, 2012, 09:27:29 AM

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:13:19 AM

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 19, 2012, 09:08:45 AM

I also agree. At some point, and that point is now, I think, you have to stop trying to teach these kid lessons of holding onto ball and doing anything to win, and start allowing them to enjoy playing...even if it results in less of a chance to win.  We are not going anywhere this year regardless of whether we essentially play the stall offense or the seven seconds or less offense, BUT, the kids will feel better about themselves if they are playing a fun offense knowing they will be getting reinforcements for next year.   I'm not saying we should totally let them loose and disregard all of the smart basketball principles dunlap is instilling in them, but let them have some fun.  We need these kids happy about their first season to some extent so they don't transfer, esp considering, as wasju pointed out, many are not from nyc, and prob have some ppl at home in their ears...

Also don't want recruits seeing misreable players on tv.

What recruits are also seeing is plenty of PT because of a short-handed team of freshmen are getting consistently beat up in the second half because the team simply needs more depth, balance and able bodies. 

I appreciate the sentiment associated with this thread, but I'm putting my faith in Lavin to get these kids through this rough stretch.  It's not like he's in a coma and doesn't see what we're seeing.  I'm sure he'll be pep talking the hell out of these kids as things get tougher (and they will).     

What recruits are also seeing is an offense in a coma.

Many of our games are on regional tv.  I'm sure they aren't seeing those games.   

I wouldn't worry... recruits prefer this brand of basketball.  Who wouldn't want to play "an exciting up-tempo baseline-to-baseline attack style of basketball" ? 

Must be a gloom and doom bug going around on these boards.    I guess we'll see toward the end of the spring signing period what impact, if any, the teams' apparent frustration and "exciting" brand of basketball will have.  Personally, I don't think it will have a material impact.

Quote from: desco80 on January 19, 2012, 09:35:21 AM

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 19, 2012, 09:29:53 AM

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:28:20 AM

Quote from: DFF6 on January 19, 2012, 09:27:29 AM

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:13:19 AM

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 19, 2012, 09:08:45 AM

I also agree. At some point, and that point is now, I think, you have to stop trying to teach these kid lessons of holding onto ball and doing anything to win, and start allowing them to enjoy playing...even if it results in less of a chance to win.  We are not going anywhere this year regardless of whether we essentially play the stall offense or the seven seconds or less offense, BUT, the kids will feel better about themselves if they are playing a fun offense knowing they will be getting reinforcements for next year.   I'm not saying we should totally let them loose and disregard all of the smart basketball principles dunlap is instilling in them, but let them have some fun.  We need these kids happy about their first season to some extent so they don't transfer, esp considering, as wasju pointed out, many are not from nyc, and prob have some ppl at home in their ears...

Also don't want recruits seeing misreable players on tv.

What recruits are also seeing is plenty of PT because of a short-handed team of freshmen are getting consistently beat up in the second half because the team simply needs more depth, balance and able bodies. 

I appreciate the sentiment associated with this thread, but I'm putting my faith in Lavin to get these kids through this rough stretch.  It's not like he's in a coma and doesn't see what we're seeing.  I'm sure he'll be pep talking the hell out of these kids as things get tougher (and they will).     

What recruits are also seeing is an offense in a coma.

Many of our games are on regional tv.  I'm sure they aren't seeing those games.   

I wouldn't worry... recruits prefer this brand of basketball.  Who wouldn't want to play "an exciting up-tempo baseline-to-baseline attack style of basketball" ? 

Must be a gloom and doom bug going around on these boards.    I guess we'll see toward the end of the spring signing period what impact, if any, the teams' apparent frustration and "exciting" brand of basketball will have.  Personally, I don't think it will have a material impact.

It doesn't take much for the "doom and gloom" to fester over here.  Nevertheless, I don't think it'll have much impact, either.  There is always a possibility, but I think we'll be fine. 

What recruits are also seeing is plenty of PT because of a short-handed team of freshmen are getting consistently beat up in the second half because the team simply needs more depth, balance and able bodies. 

I appreciate the sentiment associated with this thread, but I'm putting my faith in Lavin to get these kids through this rough stretch.  It's not like he's in a coma and doesn't see what we're seeing.  I'm sure he'll be pep talking the hell out of these kids as things get tougher (and they will).     


While we all understand Lavin's situation, the fact is when they are losing to Duke by 40 and the Cameron goofballs(no offense Kid) are chanting goofy things at them, they wont have Lavin to turn to but instead they will have sourface.

I also disagree with your point about the recruiting. The kind of kids Lavin is trying to recruit could probably play anywhere. Norm type recruits would be willing to come here just for the promise of PT.

I don't disagree with you concerning the caliber of recruit between Lavin and Norm.  But if a HS senior sees one team with two or more upperclassmen ahead of him on the depth chart, and then he looks at us, he will at least see the benefit of having less competition for significant pt (unless your a Kentucky freshman, then this way of thinking doesn't apply).

Hard to watch that embarrassing debacle last night and crack a smile thru it all.  Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves.

Quote from: desco80 on January 19, 2012, 09:35:21 AM

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 19, 2012, 09:29:53 AM

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:28:20 AM

Quote from: DFF6 on January 19, 2012, 09:27:29 AM

Quote from: Moose on January 19, 2012, 09:13:19 AM

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 19, 2012, 09:08:45 AM

I also agree. At some point, and that point is now, I think, you have to stop trying to teach these kid lessons of holding onto ball and doing anything to win, and start allowing them to enjoy playing...even if it results in less of a chance to win.  We are not going anywhere this year regardless of whether we essentially play the stall offense or the seven seconds or less offense, BUT, the kids will feel better about themselves if they are playing a fun offense knowing they will be getting reinforcements for next year.   I'm not saying we should totally let them loose and disregard all of the smart basketball principles dunlap is instilling in them, but let them have some fun.  We need these kids happy about their first season to some extent so they don't transfer, esp considering, as wasju pointed out, many are not from nyc, and prob have some ppl at home in their ears...

Also don't want recruits seeing misreable players on tv.

What recruits are also seeing is plenty of PT because of a short-handed team of freshmen are getting consistently beat up in the second half because the team simply needs more depth, balance and able bodies. 

I appreciate the sentiment associated with this thread, but I'm putting my faith in Lavin to get these kids through this rough stretch.  It's not like he's in a coma and doesn't see what we're seeing.  I'm sure he'll be pep talking the hell out of these kids as things get tougher (and they will).     

What recruits are also seeing is an offense in a coma.

Many of our games are on regional tv.  I'm sure they aren't seeing those games.   

I wouldn't worry... recruits prefer this brand of basketball.  Who wouldn't want to play "an exciting up-tempo baseline-to-baseline attack style of basketball" ? 

Must be a gloom and doom bug going around on these boards.    I guess we'll see toward the end of the spring signing period what impact, if any, the teams' apparent frustration and "exciting" brand of basketball will have.  Personally, I don't think it will have a material impact.

For me, anyway, it's tongue-in-cheek.   It's not the end of days, but I think it's time for Coach D to loosen the reigns on the offense a little.   I'd be willing to forgive D'angelo for throwing up an occasional brick early in the shot-clock or Dom trying to take his man off the dribble and risk getting stripped, if they're "feeling it" or think they have a good opportunity.  Right now the ball's not moving, guys aren't moving, and everybody's thinking too much out there.

That doesn't mean it needs to be a Chinese-fire drill every possession, but maybe simplify things a little and let the kids just react rather than over-think situations. 

And FWIW, no.. I don't think our struggles of late will kill our chances in recruiting.  Lavin is still our best weapon, and he'll get the job done.  But it certainly doesn't help, either.  And there's a big difference between bringing in 3 quality players or 5. 

Hard to watch that embarrassing debacle last night and crack a smile thru it all.  Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves


Losing is tough but kind of expected. Watching our offense is...... I guess uncomfortable would be the word. Tough to watch and not something I would want to play in.

If I were on the team I would already be beginning to think that we hold the ball until the last second so that it eats up the clock and reduces the number of points we are going to lose by. Not a winner's mentality. I agree - we need to turn them loose for at least one game. This Saturday against Villanova would be the right time to do it.  OK they just beat the Hall by 8 but they also lost to USF by 17. We can beat Nova and we need a morale booster before meeting the likes of Duke and Syracuse.

However - Dunlap strikes me as the kind of a coach who is constitutionally incapable of telling them on Saturday, " Treat this like an IS8 game - just go out there and beat the bejesus out of the bastids." His logic? Why undo everything we've been teaching them?

Lavin on the hand seems quite capable of making some such move. It it were to occur I should think the order would have to come from on high.