Coaching Carousel Begins

Quote from: fordham96 on March 22, 2012, 03:06:27 PM

Quote from: crgreen on March 22, 2012, 02:20:42 PM

Quote from: Marillac on March 22, 2012, 12:46:31 PM

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 22, 2012, 11:48:08 AM

Quote from: fordham96 on March 22, 2012, 11:43:25 AM

Some rumors that Carmody was going to get axed at Northwestern but they have decided to bring him back for another year:
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/11459848-419/bill-carmody-to-stay-at-northwestern.html

Hardest job in D1?

Army hands down.

Agree, 100%.  Not even "the right coach" can help at West Point, considering that the eleven combined seasons Army was coached by the #1 and #2 all time winningest coaches in Div-1 history (Bobby Knight and Mike Krzyzewski), they only managed two 20 win seasons, and ZERO Ncaa tourney appearances.

Wait a minute nobody is suggesting that Army is easy but you need to keep it relative.  There are plenty of mid major schools that don't make the NCAA's because they cannot win their conferences that does not make them the "hardest job in America.".  When is the last time Canisius won the MAAC?  Colgate is in the Patriot League, when is the last time they won that League?

Those are hard jobs too.  But they are relative.  I am comparing Canisius with Iona and Manhattan and Niagara NOT with UCONN or Syracuse.  I am comparing Army with Lehigh and Bucknell and Colgate NOT with Kentucky and Ohio St and UCLA. 

Vandy and Northwestern have to compete against the big boys night in and night out with some severe handicaps.  You think Nick Saban would rather coach Vandy football with its academic standards or Alabama?  We know darn well he aint coaching Army but guess what? Army does not compete in the SEC anyway so who cares.   But Vandy does that is the difference.

We're not talking about any mid-major, with 'decent' coaches.  We're talking about the 2 winningest coaches EVER.   It's speculaton for Lehigh, Bucknell and Colgate what might happen should they land such a calibre of coach.  Army's situation is already established.

I have no idea what that means but in big time college basketball Army is NOT established and has not been for decades.

There is a reason Army is Patriot League which like the Ivy League offers NO scholarships.  Because like their other members they are academically oriented.

How many college ballers would get a chance to go to college if not for hoops? You pay college basketball/football athletes, you have to pay the ping pong team also

Where is Barry Rohrssen?

Listen, I love college sports, LOVE, college basketball and football.
But the truth is we are the only country in the world who connects amateur sports with secondary academics.   

Think about it; if you're a great HS soccer player in England, Italy, Germany etc. you sign a contract with Barcelona or Manchester's development team.  And the same thing happens here in the US if you're an elite baseball player (usually you sign right out of HS), but even more so in sports like tennis and golf etc.
And they get paid, and receive professional training.   Which the top amateur athletes should be entitled to.   As great as it is that our staff has some nba experience, guess what; EVERY coach on an nba staff has nba experience.   And there are no limits on how many hours per week Lavin could work with Moe or Calipari could work with Anthony Davis.   Do you think there are limits on how often Justin Berber can work with his voice or dance instructors? Um no.   And I'll tell you for a fact that athletes we celebrated like Sarah Hughes or Michael phelps signed with professional coaches right out of high school to maximize their potential.

Noone blames 16 year old tennis stars from going to IMG acadamies or joining the tour; but Moe Harkless can't earn a living and enter the pro ranks at the same age.   What's the difference between Moe as a HS senior and David Beckham or Landon Donovan as 16/17 year olds?  (Or Robinson Cano or Jose Reyes or Sidney Crosby...who all entered the minor leagues at that age.   Honestly in my eyes there shouldn't be a difference.  I love college sports but we'd all be better off if young athletes could be signed by NBA and nfl development teams.   

Choz is absolutely right when he says college ball players are taken advantage of. 
But the answer isn't paying kids while they are in college... It's letting the free market decide who is a professional and who's an amateur.   Then you wouldn't have the issues with recruiting and agents influencing college players.

Choz - Like I have said, you are certainly entitled to your opinion but you are really looking at college sports from a very very single minded point of view. Theses kids all receive well in excess of $60,000 per year in value for playing basketball at the school THEY choose to attend. You use an example like Brandon Jennings but you know he is the massive EXCEPTION to the rule and would never ever be the standard. Also, he had no choice because he did such little work in high school he was never going to be cleared to play by the NCAA Clearinghouse.

If it were not for a college scholarship what would half these kids be up to and where would they be. For the 95% of them, they do not go on to any level of professional sports, college is their way to a better life and if they don't use the opportunity that is laid at their feet, its on THEM not the NCAA.

And also - lets not get into all these kids who are blatantly getting paid, some of them a lot, to go to the school they choose.

You use an example like Brandon Jennings but you know he is the massive EXCEPTION to the rule and would never ever be the standard.

Thats what peeps was sayin about Garnett back when he declared. He will be the exception. Elite players will still go to college.

Fast forward some years later and the NCAA was so fearful of losing all its talent that it colluded with the NBA to deprive high schoolers of the right to make a living (and maximize their earning potential) in the NBA monopoly until they was 19.

Yes, its hard fo an 17, 18 year old kid to make that gamble, skip college and go to Europe instead of the more traditional route. But one can hope.

Because that's one way where the NCAA house of cards can fall quickly - where their elite talent, their money makers, their cheap labor, their cattle, their property can finally have the playing field leveled. And a change will come.     

Because that's one way where the NCAA house of cards can fall quickly - where their elite talent, their money makers, their cheap labor, their cattle, their property can finally have the playing field leveled. And a change will come.

To refer to the kids who play any sport in college cattle is demeaning and wrong.

The way you are looking at this, the top 10% or so of the college sports playing world should be taken care of and compensated by the NCAA for what they provide for the 90% of the other student athletes that fall under the NCAA...   is that a safe way to say you are looking at it..?

To refer to the kids who play any sport in college cattle is demeaning and wrong.

No it's an honest assessment when you look past the propaganda of "student athlete" considering cattle also get housing (a barn) and food (oats) for their service.

The way you are looking at this, the top 10% or so of the college sports playing world should be taken care of and compensated by the NCAA for what they provide for the 90% of the other student athletes that fall under the NCAA...   is that a safe way to say you are looking at it..?

Revenue generating sports - mens bball and fball - should be treated differently than badmiton, yes.

Nobody is forcing these kids to go to college.  If these wannabe pros want to get paid out of high school, thy can enter the free market.  NBA doesn't want this to happen, NBA players union doesn't want it either.  That's not an issue for college athletics.  I think that colleges do a fantastic job of providing free scholarship and essentially an internship where these kids are given an opportunity to learn and train in their supposed trade which is basketball.  These are NOT cattle, and I played college sports for a short while.  98% of college athletes play sports for the love of the game and to get an education.  Just because some sports draw more money to the university than others shouldn't dictate that these athletes need pay for play.  I think it is a horrible idea. 

The kids that don't want college?  Don't go...  Figure out another way.  Go to Europe, NBDL, junior college, etc.  Truth is though that colleges provide what almost all of these kids need, which is basketball training, a free education, marketing and the like.  Think that SJU didn't provide anything for Moe Harkless?  Think again.  The marketing Moe got for free was phenomenal.  The improvement of Moe this year under the staff was remarkable.  It gave him the improvement and exposure to possibly get drafted in the first round.  Win-win for Moe and the University.  Looks like the college internship provided a LOT for a kid like Moe Harkless.  Had he tried his hand in the free market, I doubt he'd be in this position.

Quote from: pmg911 on March 23, 2012, 09:05:46 AM

To refer to the kids who play any sport in college cattle is demeaning and wrong.

No it's an honest assessment when you look past the propaganda of "student athlete" considering cattle also get housing (a barn) and food (oats) for their service.

Quote from: pmg911 on March 23, 2012, 09:05:46 AM

The way you are looking at this, the top 10% or so of the college sports playing world should be taken care of and compensated by the NCAA for what they provide for the 90% of the other student athletes that fall under the NCAA...   is that a safe way to say you are looking at it..?

Revenue generating sports - mens bball and fball - should be treated differently than badmiton, yes.

Choz, IMO your comparison to farm animals is offensive and your view on this stuff I wholeheartedly disagree with.

Choz:

Farm animals sole purpose is to provide food, and if they arent great performers, they are useless and have no other options. 

College basketball players primary purpose is to provide a great basketball product for the school administration, but if they arent great performers, they can still get a great education and take advantage of an opportunity they wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

Bad analogy.  The vast majority of D1 athletes will not play professionally, but they WILL get an education.  Knowledge is power.  It's up to them to use it.

I agree the system in unfair, and especially the top players are not getting compensated in a way they deserve to be, but as you pointed out, they can go to Europe if they don't care about education.  They are not forced to play college ball.  That's their choice.  They know what they are getting into when they get there.  They need to take advantage of it by making that education worth something.  And most players do.

Nobody is forcing these kids to go to college.  If these wannabe pros want to get paid out of high school, thy can enter the free market.

How is a market free when the highest-paying, most prestigious employer of your services bars you from entering when its managers think you're ready? Clearly you can't maximize your monetary potential, even though an NBA GM would really like to hire you, but is prevented from doing so. 

 
Think that SJU didn't provide anything for Moe Harkless?  Think again.

Think Moe didnt provide anything to SJU? Think again.

 

The marketing Moe got for free was phenomenal. 

The marketing SJU got from Moe for free was phenomenal.

The improvement of Moe this year under the staff was remarkable.  It gave him the improvement and exposure to possibly get drafted in the first round. 

The fact that this team didn't lose all its games thanks to the contribution of Moe was remarkable. It gave the staff the ability to keep earning their well-paid salaries and possibly get hired as head coaches, which would earn them even more money (all good).

Looks like the college internship provided a LOT for a kid like Moe Harkless.  Had he tried his hand in the free market, I doubt he'd be in this position.

Looks like cheap labor provided a LOT for a school like SJU, which would have drawn flies this year if not for Moe.

Choz, IMO your comparison to farm animals is offensive

Yes, I too find young athletes being treated as property offensive. I'm glad we can agree on this. 

Quote from: pmg911 on Today at 09:05:46 AM

The way you are looking at this, the top 10% or so of the college sports playing world should be taken care of and compensated by the NCAA for what they provide for the 90% of the other student athletes that fall under the NCAA...   is that a safe way to say you are looking at it..?

Revenue generating sports - mens bball and fball - should be treated differently than badmiton, yes.

Choz - I never knew you were a Conservative Republican - I have a new found respect for you.

It's interesting because when you apply the same point of view to everyday life , the top 5 - 10% of people in this country, the ones who are clearing supporting the rest of our country, are viewed as greedy elitist pigs.

Quote from: MCNPA on March 23, 2012, 09:30:04 AM

Choz, IMO your comparison to farm animals is offensive

Yes, I too find young athletes being treated as property offensive. I'm glad we can agree on this.

Then I guess I wish I was treated as property.  That style of servitude would have paid off my college loans for the mere price of playing a sport.  Oh the humanity...

You can't be a lawyer until you go to law school (and finish college).  You can't be a doctor until you go to med school (and finish college).  You can be an NFL player until you're 3 years removed from high school.  You can't be a member of the House of Representatives until you are 25.  You can't be a member of the Senate until you are 30.  You can't be President until you are 35.

So tell me why is it so unjust and unfair that the NBA requires 19/1 year removed from high school?  Nearly every high paying prestigious job requires a college education (I'm talking about the jobs I did not mention), and the jobs I did mention require something more/different.  There are tons of other restrictions on other jobs I did not mention.

So why is it so much more unfair to make ballers wait 1 year for the NBA?  This is NOT a big deal and it just makes them deal with what the rest of us have to deal with.  I think it's good for them, personally.

Kid - thank you for bringing a little perspective to this robust dialogue.

Look y'all, I cant spend all day going back and forth. A brothers gotta earn a livin. And he cant do that on JJ!!!! LOL.

So in summation:
-Revoke the NCAAs non-profit status.
-Let non-profit schools establish for-profit basketball and football teams whose players are part of a union, paid through a collectively-bargained wage scale based on the $1 billion+ they generate annually. And as part of their compensation package can go (but arent required) to classes and earn a degree for free.   
-This will make the system a bit more honest. Right now its a sham.

Peace out!
Choz4Life

Look y'all, I cant spend all day going back and forth. A brothers gotta earn a livin. And he cant do that on JJ!!!! LOL.

So in summation:
-Revoke the NCAAs non-profit status.
-Let non-profit schools establish for-profit basketball and football teams whose players are part of a union, paid through a collectively-bargained wage scale based on the $1 billion+ they generate annually. And as part of their compensation package can go (but arent required) to classes and earn a degree for free.   
-This will make the system a bit more honest. Right now its a sham.

Peace out!
Choz4Life

The only sham is the instant gratification that self-entitled amateur athletes expect.   It's an unpaid internship.  It's what almost every professional in every field has to go through.