Moe and the 2012 Draft

 I think Len Robbins likes to torture St. John's fans.

I think Len Robbins likes to torture St. John's fans.

It's how those papers operate

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath.  I understand that the potential that Mo might declare has been fueled today by the combination of the tweet earlier in the week from the guy at one of the NBA draft websites, Robbins' tweet today, as well as Coach Lav's.  But I think that Mo's and Nate Blue's tweets are easily the most credible, and given that Lavin is out on the recruiting trail, he could be purposefully generating buzz about Mo's consideration to help persuade potential recruits that if they come to the Johnnies to work with this staff, it may have immediate results for their potential NBA prospects.

If Mo decides to leave, I wish him nothing but the best and hope that he ends up being a first round pick.  My concern for Mo is that some of the pre-draft works out don't go as well as he thought they would, and he drops a bit, or ends up at the end of an NBA bench without the ability to further refine and develop his skills (granted, if as a first round pick, he'll have a good payday).  I'd also be concerned about the various wings/forwards who may jump this year, which could impact Mo's draft position. 

Short term, Mo leaving obviously hurts our team next year.  But the flip-side, as recognized by several on this board, is that it lends further credibility to Lavin and this staff in their ability to develop talent to make it to the next level.  That is a positive development, as is all the local buzz this is generating.

And if Mo doesn't leave, we will have a first team Big East type player leading our squad, along with D-Lo, the rest of the talented returning players, and whoever Lavin reels in.  And our program will have the upshot of all the buzz this has generated.

Everyone keeps talking about Barnes, Davis, Sullinger and the Zellers.
But what about Europe and South America? The NBA has scouts everywhere.

I would tell Moe to stay because he will develop more here then the NBA, but it wont stop him from becoming a great player if he decides to leave.

Paul George, Wilson Chandler, Thaddeus Young, etc. have done it.

I would tell Moe to stay because he will develop more here then the NBA, but it wont stop him from becoming a great player if he decides to leave.

Paul George, Wilson Chandler, Thaddeus Young, etc. have done it.

Im just going off by memory but didnt all of those guys stay at least 2 years? I know chandler did

Quote from: Save The Hero on March 11, 2012, 12:52:26 AM

I would tell Moe to stay because he will develop more here then the NBA, but it wont stop him from becoming a great player if he decides to leave.

Paul George, Wilson Chandler, Thaddeus Young, etc. have done it.

Im just going off by memory but didnt all of those guys stay at least 2 years? I know chandler did

Young was the only one to stay only 1 year. But developmental stage wise when they entered, are all about equal to Moe. The NBA is starting to trend to drafting these high potential lengthy forward types higher and higher in the draft. He can't make a wrong decision in my mind. If he comes back he has a chance to be a top 10 player in the draft and develops more, if he enters he hinders his development only slightly, but he makes money right away and is closer to free agency.

if moe leaves, all the more reason for sampson to come.  not only will he get a ton of minutes right away, but a great part of the offence will run through him.  easily fifteen plus a game as a freshman.

Mo Harkless is NOT ready for the NBA. Leaving after one good year on q team where he had free reign to shoot as much as he would like would be a major mistake. He would be stapled to a bench ine league for a few years.

I do understand the economics of coming out and getting your service time clock started but if he has one bad work out for a team looking to draft him and falls to the second round he has really hurt himself, his future and his family.

Stay in school, have monster Sophmore season and be a Lottery pick, this is a no brainer?

if moe leaves, all the more reason for sampson to come.  not only will he get a ton of minutes right away, but a great part of the offence will run through him.  easily fifteen plus a game as a freshman.

I hope I am wrong but I don't Sampson is committing until we get a commit from a true center. I don't think he is going to want to play the 5.

Someone jog my memory and help me recall the last player who stayed that extra year and it ended up hurting thier draft stock. I can't recall any in the past couple years but know a lot who helped them selves by staying, and I've herd countless times of guys who shoulda stayed an extra year but not really any who "stayed to long".

This year alone, Jared Sullinger and Terrence Jones have both dropped from where they would have gone last year.

Moe's stock will never be higher for THIS YEAR'S draft than it is right now coming off that great game against Pitt.  That will change as teams start to dissect his body and his game.  The kid is simply not ready for the NBA at this point--both his body and his game need work.  He shot less than 25% from three and under 70% from the FT line!  He's very thin and weak by NBA standards.  He has not proven that he can defend his position.  That is something he hasn't had to do at all this season. When teams look at tape closely the will see that Moe often doesn't jump for rebounds because of his exception size and length. 

If he's being projected in the late first round (#21 according to draft express), that also presents the problem of being considered by winning teams looking to add players to contribute right away.  Add in the scary fact that just about every other player around him right now is more ready physically and has more experience--even the international kids at the same age who have ben playing professionally for the past few seasons.

He will make more money in the short term by staying a year and working his way into the lottery.  He might also extend his NBA career.  He'll be the focus at St. John's, but he'l be an after though in the NBA for a few years. It is not uncommon for players in the first round to disappear very quickly from the NBA. 


With that written, it's tough to say no to the NBA.  I will cheer for him the rest of my life in whatever he does, and I'd expect our entire fan base to do the same.  He started the flood of players to St. John's and I know I won't forget that. The kid has all the makings of a fine NBA player if he works on his body and his game.

I'm convinced there is no better recruiting tool than pointing to a player in the NBA at the same position and saying that he is a product of your staff's coaching, a product of your current system, and telling the recruit that he's next if he gets on board.  Nobody will capitalize on that more than Steve Lavin.  I'm sure all the coaches recruiting against Lav have tried to minimize Lav's success with producing NBA players by saying things like "that was at UCLA" and "this is a completely different system with completely different coaches."  Now Lav would be able to say "I did it at Purdue, I did it at UCLA, and I'm already doing it here at STJ.  Look at Harkless.  In one season he went from being a kid not even ranked in the top 40 in his class to being chosen in the first round.  Why?  Because we have the best staff in the country, we have a system that showcase players' talents, and no place in the country is more visible to NBA scouts and GM's than NYC."  This is truly a win-win situation for St. John's.   

This year alone, Jared Sullinger and Terrence Jones have both dropped from where they would have gone last year.

I'm not sure about that the reason why both of those guys stayed was because they weren't sure fire top 7-10 picks to begin with and there probably be around the same thing this year.

 Nice post Marillac. Pretty much sums up my feelings as well.  People masking as STJ fans pumping Nate Blue's twitter with digs at Moe going pro aren't making the rest of us look very good. " Have fun in the D-league, Moe" ... not cool.  Get over it.

 I could see him getting drafted by a team like the Celtics, playing behind Paul Pierce for a few years and then taking over and torturing us Knicks fans for the next 10-15.. Sounds about right from my perspective.

 I think Terrence Jones and Sullinger were both lottery picks last year and will be lottery picks next year.  Jones may get a title as a reward for sticking around....that is what its all about.

Moe's stock will never be higher for THIS YEAR'S draft than it is right now coming off that great game against Pitt.  That will change as teams start to dissect his body and his game.  The kid is simply not ready for the NBA at this point--both his body and his game need work.  He shot less than 25% from three and under 70% from the FT line!  He's very thin and weak by NBA standards.  He has not proven that he can defend his position.  That is something he hasn't had to do at all this season. When teams look at tape closely the will see that Moe often doesn't jump for rebounds because of his exception size and length. 

If he's being projected in the late first round (#21 according to draft express), that also presents the problem of being considered by winning teams looking to add players to contribute right away.  Add in the scary fact that just about every other player around him right now is more ready physically and has more experience--even the international kids at the same age who have ben playing professionally for the past few seasons.

He will make more money in the short term by staying a year and working his way into the lottery.  He might also extend his NBA career.  He'll be the focus at St. John's, but he'l be an after though in the NBA for a few years. It is not uncommon for players in the first round to disappear very quickly from the NBA. 


With that written, it's tough to say no to the NBA.  I will cheer for him the rest of my life in whatever he does, and I'd expect our entire fan base to do the same.  He started the flood of players to St. John's and I know I won't forget that. The kid has all the makings of a fine NBA player if he works on his body and his game.

I'm convinced there is no better recruiting tool than pointing to a player in the NBA at the same position and saying that he is a product of your staff's coaching, a product of your current system, and telling the recruit that he's next if he gets on board.  Nobody will capitalize on that more than Steve Lavin.  I'm sure all the coaches recruiting against Lav have tried to minimize Lav's success with producing NBA players by saying things like "that was at UCLA" and "this is a completely different system with completely different coaches."  Now Lav would be able to say "I did it at Purdue, I did it at UCLA, and I'm already doing it here at STJ.  Look at Harkless.  In one season he went from being a kid not even ranked in the top 40 in his class to being chosen in the first round.  Why?  Because we have the best staff in the country, we have a system that showcase players' talents, and no place in the country is more visible to NBA scouts and GM's than NYC."  This is truly a win-win situation for St. John's.   

Well said, I believe this is another ingenious PR tactic by lav to bolster the attention around the program. harkless isn't leaving but the media attention around him possibly leaving is great attention especially if they drag it out to the end and he decides to take his talents back to utopia pkwy

Quote from: Marillac on March 11, 2012, 12:52:53 PM

Moe's stock will never be higher for THIS YEAR'S draft than it is right now coming off that great game against Pitt.  That will change as teams start to dissect his body and his game.  The kid is simply not ready for the NBA at this point--both his body and his game need work.  He shot less than 25% from three and under 70% from the FT line!  He's very thin and weak by NBA standards.  He has not proven that he can defend his position.  That is something he hasn't had to do at all this season. When teams look at tape closely the will see that Moe often doesn't jump for rebounds because of his exception size and length. 

If he's being projected in the late first round (#21 according to draft express), that also presents the problem of being considered by winning teams looking to add players to contribute right away.  Add in the scary fact that just about every other player around him right now is more ready physically and has more experience--even the international kids at the same age who have ben playing professionally for the past few seasons.

He will make more money in the short term by staying a year and working his way into the lottery.  He might also extend his NBA career.  He'll be the focus at St. John's, but he'l be an after though in the NBA for a few years. It is not uncommon for players in the first round to disappear very quickly from the NBA. 


With that written, it's tough to say no to the NBA.  I will cheer for him the rest of my life in whatever he does, and I'd expect our entire fan base to do the same.  He started the flood of players to St. John's and I know I won't forget that. The kid has all the makings of a fine NBA player if he works on his body and his game.

I'm convinced there is no better recruiting tool than pointing to a player in the NBA at the same position and saying that he is a product of your staff's coaching, a product of your current system, and telling the recruit that he's next if he gets on board.  Nobody will capitalize on that more than Steve Lavin.  I'm sure all the coaches recruiting against Lav have tried to minimize Lav's success with producing NBA players by saying things like "that was at UCLA" and "this is a completely different system with completely different coaches."  Now Lav would be able to say "I did it at Purdue, I did it at UCLA, and I'm already doing it here at STJ.  Look at Harkless.  In one season he went from being a kid not even ranked in the top 40 in his class to being chosen in the first round.  Why?  Because we have the best staff in the country, we have a system that showcase players' talents, and no place in the country is more visible to NBA scouts and GM's than NYC."  This is truly a win-win situation for St. John's.   

Well said, I believe this is another ingenious PR tactic by lav to bolster the attention around the program. harkless isn't leaving but the media attention around him possibly leaving is great attention especially if they drag it out to the end and he decides to take his talents back to utopia pkwy

That would be a genius thing by Lav. Make Moe look like the hero for coming back for another season. That being said, I doubt that's what happening.

Quote from: Marillac on March 11, 2012, 12:52:53 PM

Moe's stock will never be higher for THIS YEAR'S draft than it is right now coming off that great game against Pitt.  That will change as teams start to dissect his body and his game.  The kid is simply not ready for the NBA at this point--both his body and his game need work.  He shot less than 25% from three and under 70% from the FT line!  He's very thin and weak by NBA standards.  He has not proven that he can defend his position.  That is something he hasn't had to do at all this season. When teams look at tape closely the will see that Moe often doesn't jump for rebounds because of his exception size and length. 

If he's being projected in the late first round (#21 according to draft express), that also presents the problem of being considered by winning teams looking to add players to contribute right away.  Add in the scary fact that just about every other player around him right now is more ready physically and has more experience--even the international kids at the same age who have ben playing professionally for the past few seasons.

He will make more money in the short term by staying a year and working his way into the lottery.  He might also extend his NBA career.  He'll be the focus at St. John's, but he'l be an after though in the NBA for a few years. It is not uncommon for players in the first round to disappear very quickly from the NBA. 


With that written, it's tough to say no to the NBA.  I will cheer for him the rest of my life in whatever he does, and I'd expect our entire fan base to do the same.  He started the flood of players to St. John's and I know I won't forget that. The kid has all the makings of a fine NBA player if he works on his body and his game.

I'm convinced there is no better recruiting tool than pointing to a player in the NBA at the same position and saying that he is a product of your staff's coaching, a product of your current system, and telling the recruit that he's next if he gets on board.  Nobody will capitalize on that more than Steve Lavin.  I'm sure all the coaches recruiting against Lav have tried to minimize Lav's success with producing NBA players by saying things like "that was at UCLA" and "this is a completely different system with completely different coaches."  Now Lav would be able to say "I did it at Purdue, I did it at UCLA, and I'm already doing it here at STJ.  Look at Harkless.  In one season he went from being a kid not even ranked in the top 40 in his class to being chosen in the first round.  Why?  Because we have the best staff in the country, we have a system that showcase players' talents, and no place in the country is more visible to NBA scouts and GM's than NYC."  This is truly a win-win situation for St. John's.   

Well said, I believe this is another ingenious PR tactic by lav to bolster the attention around the program. harkless isn't leaving but the media attention around him possibly leaving is great attention especially if they drag it out to the end and he decides to take his talents back to utopia pkwy

I was thinking the same thing. But after analyzing the situation, I think it hurts our recruiting. Recruits want PT, but they want to also play on winning teams and not get double teamed.I.E.  IMO it would be more disireable for Sampson to play alongside MO,then to just take Mos place. How is Sampson to differentiate between a PR stunt and reality.

Quote from: Chilleb on March 11, 2012, 01:33:04 PM

Quote from: Marillac on March 11, 2012, 12:52:53 PM

Moe's stock will never be higher for THIS YEAR'S draft than it is right now coming off that great game against Pitt.  That will change as teams start to dissect his body and his game.  The kid is simply not ready for the NBA at this point--both his body and his game need work.  He shot less than 25% from three and under 70% from the FT line!  He's very thin and weak by NBA standards.  He has not proven that he can defend his position.  That is something he hasn't had to do at all this season. When teams look at tape closely the will see that Moe often doesn't jump for rebounds because of his exception size and length. 

If he's being projected in the late first round (#21 according to draft express), that also presents the problem of being considered by winning teams looking to add players to contribute right away.  Add in the scary fact that just about every other player around him right now is more ready physically and has more experience--even the international kids at the same age who have ben playing professionally for the past few seasons.

He will make more money in the short term by staying a year and working his way into the lottery.  He might also extend his NBA career.  He'll be the focus at St. John's, but he'l be an after though in the NBA for a few years. It is not uncommon for players in the first round to disappear very quickly from the NBA. 


With that written, it's tough to say no to the NBA.  I will cheer for him the rest of my life in whatever he does, and I'd expect our entire fan base to do the same.  He started the flood of players to St. John's and I know I won't forget that. The kid has all the makings of a fine NBA player if he works on his body and his game.

I'm convinced there is no better recruiting tool than pointing to a player in the NBA at the same position and saying that he is a product of your staff's coaching, a product of your current system, and telling the recruit that he's next if he gets on board.  Nobody will capitalize on that more than Steve Lavin.  I'm sure all the coaches recruiting against Lav have tried to minimize Lav's success with producing NBA players by saying things like "that was at UCLA" and "this is a completely different system with completely different coaches."  Now Lav would be able to say "I did it at Purdue, I did it at UCLA, and I'm already doing it here at STJ.  Look at Harkless.  In one season he went from being a kid not even ranked in the top 40 in his class to being chosen in the first round.  Why?  Because we have the best staff in the country, we have a system that showcase players' talents, and no place in the country is more visible to NBA scouts and GM's than NYC."  This is truly a win-win situation for St. John's.   

Well said, I believe this is another ingenious PR tactic by lav to bolster the attention around the program. harkless isn't leaving but the media attention around him possibly leaving is great attention especially if they drag it out to the end and he decides to take his talents back to utopia pkwy

I was thinking the same thing. But after analyzing the situation, I think it hurts our recruiting. Recruits want PT, but they want to also play on winning teams and not get double teamed.I.E.  IMO it would be more disireable for Sampson to play alongside MO,then to just take Mos place. How is Sampson to differentiate between a PR stunt and reality.

Nobody will ever be double-teamed with Harrison lurking on the perimeter.  That kid can score every which way possible and is an assassin from three.

Mo Harkless is NOT ready for the NBA. Leaving after one good year on q team where he had free reign to shoot as much as he would like would be a major mistake. He would be stapled to a bench ine league for a few years.

I do understand the economics of coming out and getting your service time clock started but if he has one bad work out for a team looking to draft him and falls to the second round he has really hurt himself, his future and his family.

Stay in school, have monster Sophmore season and be a Lottery pick, this is a no brainer?

He's being raised by a single mother who works part time at Applebees.  When you're offered a high-6-figure or low-7-figure job in the family financial situation that he's in, don't try to tell any reasonable human being that going back to the 30k a year job (the value of a scholarship at St. John's) is a "no brainer".  I also don't want to hear about the career insurance, because for the most part that can only be collected in full value if an Eric Legrand-like injury occurs.  Moe's income can disappear with one bad landing off a jump for a rebound. 

And by the way, what defenses do you face in the NBA?? man-to-man.  And what teams did Moe TEAR APART this year?? The ones that defended in man-to-man.  AND he did it while playing out of position.