How deep...?

To me, the most exciting and relieving part about our depth is that we finally have it. We can't know the recipe until we see how hard everyone has worked this summer. For our 5 returnees, 9/10 their second year success is a direct answer to their summer work.

Will we have Lavor Postell or Felipe Lopez? I tend to believe that Lavin's staff had a plan for each player this summer.

Last season our biggest problem was our absolute lack of depth and experience.  We we handcuffed in what we could do, especially trying not to foul all game long.  We lost some close ones which I think would have gone a different way with some more experience and a few more pieces.  I don't think guys like Dom and Phil were awful.  They are just freshmen and not able to ease their way into the lineup with zero vets on the roster.

This year we return 5 guys that earned lots of minutes last year.  We don't have many upperclassment with experience, but we have some experienced sophs that should be a bit better.  I'm sure some will be to varying degrees.  More importantly though, we have tons more depth and at different positions.  We won't be forced to play Phil at PG all season long when a true Pg in Branch is eligible to play.  That should help a ton.  We have much more size and athleticism overall up front which should also help.  We really struggled last year because Gift was our only "big".  Adding Obekpa, Sanchez and Jones will open up options for us as well.

Last year we started 5 freshmen and had no bench at all.  Is season we double our team and all of those freshman except 1 are back (albeit a real good one).  Other Big East teams have many of the same issues of player turnover and are relying on guys to improve significantly to achieve success.  Some of the top few teams will still be there.

I will be clear though that I'm not saying we will win the Big East.  I do think we have the pieces to crack the top 6 though and make the NCAA's.

What a beacon of sunshine you are.
If a friend of yours told you he won the lotto would you congratulate him or wax on about how many taxes are taken out?

Yeah but Fun won't be one of the guys bitching when we are 8-8 or whatever. Most of you have lost your minds. Although it is tough to lose something you might not have ever had. If I could have a nickel for all the complaining that is going to go on around here when this team struggles which it will do..... Hopefully this team establishes the start of something that was supposed to start last season. I expect us to struggle just as much this season as we did last season if not more as you know we lost our best player and everything. Also the returning players actually will be playing for a new coach. NIT would be great!

Yeah but Fun won't be one of the guys bitching when we are 8-8 or whatever. Most of you have lost your minds. Although it is tough to lose something you might not have ever had. If I could have a nickel for all the complaining that is going to go on around here when this team struggles which it will do..... Hopefully this team establishes the start of something that was supposed to start last season. I expect us to struggle just as much this season as we did last season if not more as you know we lost our best player and everything. Also the returning players actually will be playing for a new coach. NIT would be great!

Your right because Fun rarely comments on actual basketball.
Thanks for 'replying' to my post and talking about complaining since I'm often told I'm an extreme homer so that just makes things even more confusing.
Also thanks for 'replying' to my post talking about posters not being able to lose their minds when they didnt have a mind to begin with.

Yeah but Fun won't be one of the guys bitching when we are 8-8 or whatever. Most of you have lost your minds. Although it is tough to lose something you might not have ever had. If I could have a nickel for all the complaining that is going to go on around here when this team struggles which it will do..... Hopefully this team establishes the start of something that was supposed to start last season. I expect us to struggle just as much this season as we did last season if not more as you know we lost our best player and everything. Also the returning players actually will be playing for a new coach. NIT would be great!

Normally I agree with you but I think this team had a chance to REALLY surprise people. A lot of it depends on how quickly Obekpa adjusts to college but we are very athletic, have a gews that can actually shoot the ball and actually have depth - all not bad problems and could be recipe for good season.

NIT would be great?   - I can't exactly get on board with that, but I do agree with the general idea that we're going to struggle more than most people expect.   I've said before when it's all said and done I think we'll be a bubble team.

The added depth helps no question.   But I disagree that our biggest weakness last season was depth.   If that were the case then you could expect that we would've gotten off to good starts and faded down the stretch in a lot of games.   That didn't happen on a regular basis.   And other than the OT loss to Villanova and the Rutgers game to end the season I don't recall too many close games that you can easily say.. "man if we could've given our starters a breather here and there we win that game".    There just weren't many games like that.

We have added depth, and some meaningful experience.
But to me our biggest issues were: rebounding, turnovers, poor foul shooting, poor shooting from the field, and no ball movement.
And then we lost our best rebounder/scorer.

I'm not saying this will be a bad season, I just think there are obvious deficiencies that we still have.   I think Sanchez/Sampson/Obekpa help in the rebounding department, and when he's eligible Branch can get the offense moving.  Potential upgrades in those areas for sure.   
But I'm not sure Marco plays enough to really make a difference offensively, and I expect only incremental improvement from Amir, Dom, and Phil.    I think that's where our predictions diverge.  If you guys are right and Marco can be a Sergio Luyck, and the returners take a substantial step forward; then the team will perform closer to the top of the Big East.     

Besides depth this group of players has flexibility to play other positions.  With Branch unavailable in the pre Big East portion of the schedule, Dangelo will get time at the point.  The projected SF's will all get time at SG.  The projected three PF's could be on the floor at the same covering the 3 front court positions.  The possibilities are interesting as to the combinations that we could see and from the first 2 years, we know coach loves to experiment in November/December.  That is what makes some of the early games interesting as we go to them thinking "who tonight?"

Quote from: Foad on September 07, 2012, 08:20:53 AM

Quote from: Chilleb on September 06, 2012, 10:51:09 PM

what Needs to happen

First, several players who were completely awful last year need to getter better. For example Dom Pointless and Phil Greene, who stank, they'll have to not stink. Gazundheit Achiewa will need to perform against Division 1 teams with the same aplomb that he does against Division 3 teams. These players as a group will have to shoot better than .28 percent from 3, higher than 40 percent from the floor, and manage more than 10 assists a game. 

Second, his year's freshmen class will have to play much better much faster than last year's heralded freshman class, which included a first round NBA draft pick and a player some fans here claim is the best player in the BE. You may recall that last year's heralded freshman class team won 13 of the 32 games it played. So all of the new freshman will have to perform at a much higher level than a rational fan would expect them to perform and they will have to adapt to college with a wisdom and maturity than many 18 year olds don't possess.

Third someone will have to step in and replace Mike Dunlap, last I heard a tactical and logistical genius. Perhaps its this new guy who has never before coached a day in his life. And TGAPL will have to prove that his .350 winning percentage this century is a fluke and that he is in fact able to win games without Norm Roberts players.

Finally several other players and teams in the BE will need to get considerably worse. Ideally most of the very good players would be declared academically ineligible and several HOF coaches would be banned from the sport forever. But that seems unlikely. Perhaps though the Carrier Dome will get swallowed up in a giant sink hole taking NY's team with it and Kentucky will secede from the union. That would improve SJ chances immeasurably.

So to recap. In order for SJ to win the BE calamity would have to befall the top half of the league and SJ players and staff would need to overachieve.
 

What a beacon of sunshine you are.
If a friend of yours told you he won the lotto would you congratulate him or wax on about how many taxes are taken out?

Moose, it was a perfect setup. Did you think fun could resist the challengeto not respond.

What a beacon of sunshine you are.
If a friend of yours told you he won the lotto would you congratulate him or wax on about how many taxes are taken out?

Yeah but Fun won't be one of the guys bitching when we are 8-8 or whatever. Most of you have lost your minds. Although it is tough to lose something you might not have ever had. If I could have a nickel for all the complaining that is going to go on around here when this team struggles which it will do..... Hopefully this team establishes the start of something that was supposed to start last season. I expect us to struggle just as much this season as we did last season if not more as you know we lost our best player and everything. Also the returning players actually will be playing for a new coach. NIT would be great!

Do you even realize we only had 6 players and no PG or center last season. We didn't have our head coach either. Everyone who was a freshman last season is now a year more experienced. How you think we won't improve greatly this season is beyond me.

Quote from: Chilleb on September 06, 2012, 10:51:09 PM

what Needs to happen

Third someone will have to step in and replace Mike Dunlap, last I heard a tactical and logistical genius. Perhaps its this new guy who has never before coached a day in his life. And TGAPL will have to prove that his .350 winning percentage this century is a fluke and that he is in fact able to win games without Norm Roberts players.

You do realize Steve Lavin  Managed to go 135-59, with an Elite 8 and 4 Sweet 16s, 6 straight years of 21 or more wins, and 6 straight years getting his team to the AP or Coachs Poll top 25 ---  WITHOUT Mike Dunlap, right?

And what the flock is this ".350 winning percentage this century" stuff?  He's 91-64  (58.7%) from 2000 on, with 4 NCAA tourneys and 3 Sweet 16s in 5 sdasons.    Unless you're changing ships from "Dunlap being the coach that has to be replaced from last year",  and crediting SL with last years  13-19 record - but that still makes him  104-83 (55.6 with 4 dances & 3 Sweet 16s in SIX seasons).....

OR you're just yanking our chain, as the "Norm's players" comment might indicate.   

Thanks for 'replying' to my post and talking about complaining since I'm often told I'm an extreme homer so that just makes things even more confusing.
Also thanks for 'replying' to my post talking about posters not being able to lose their minds when they didnt have a mind to begin with


The last time I was thanked this many times w/o knowing why was in college when I woke up next to some chubster (probably from Iona) after a prolific night of drinking.
My response will be the same however your welcome!

Do you even realize we only had 6 players and no PG or center last season. We didn't have our head coach either. Everyone who was a freshman last season is now a year more experienced. How you think we won't improve greatly this season is beyond me.

Yes I realize that. DO you realize that our best player from a 13 win team is gone. How many of the incoming recruits would you trade to have Harkless back? Yes the 5 remaining guys from last year have experience, but will now be playing for a different coach. And judging by the pining over Dunlap, isn't his leaving supposed to be a bad thing? You seem to think it will be a good thing? I am confused

Listen I looking forward to the season as I did last year. I enjoyed last season and I will enjoy this one. Becuase of all the ineligibilties and Coach's situation I really don't consider this season as an extension of last year. We are basically starting over and will struggle. could we surprise everyone not posting on these boards? Anything is possible, Fun owns BEB. I expect similar results to last season so those of you who are saying we can win the BE are going to bitch.

Do you even realize we only had 6 players and no PG or center last season. We didn't have our head coach either. Everyone who was a freshman last season is now a year more experienced. How you think we won't improve greatly this season is beyond me.

Yes I realize that. DO you realize that our best player from a 13 win team is gone. How many of the incoming recruits would you trade to have Harkless back? Yes the 5 remaining guys from last year have experience, but will now be playing for a different coach. And judging by the pining over Dunlap, isn't his leaving supposed to be a bad thing? You seem to think it will be a good thing? I am confused

Listen I looking forward to the season as I did last year. I enjoyed last season and I will enjoy this one. Becuase of all the ineligibilties and Coach's situation I really don't consider this season as an extension of last year. We are basically starting over and will struggle. could we surprise everyone not posting on these boards? Anything is possible, Fun owns BEB. I expect similar results to last season so those of you who are saying we can win the BE are going to bitch.

I understand we lost Harkless. And honestly, if my choice was to have Harkless back this year, and once again have no depth, or have the team we have now, I'd take the team we have now, hands down.

And yes, they are playing for a different coach, but now they will be playing for the coach they actually came to play for. And no where in my post did I suggest that losing Dunlap was a good thing. The only thing I implied was that losing Lavin for the season last year was a bad thing. Getting Lavin back as coach is more of a positive than losing Dunlap was a negative IMO.

You do realize Steve Lavin  Managed to go 135-59, with an Elite 8 and 4 Sweet 16s, 6 straight years of 21 or more wins, and 6 straight years getting his team to the AP or Coachs Poll top 25 ---  WITHOUT Mike Dunlap, right?

And what the flock is this ".350 winning percentage this century" stuff?  He's 91-64  (58.7%) from 2000 on, with 4 NCAA tourneys and 3 Sweet 16s in 5 sdasons.    Unless you're changing ships from "Dunlap being the coach that has to be replaced from last year",  and crediting SL with last years  13-19 record - but that still makes him  104-83 (55.6 with 4 dances & 3 Sweet 16s in SIX seasons).....

OR you're just yanking our chain, as the "Norm's players" comment might indicate.   

Lavin's record is 44 and 40 since 2002. He's 23 and 38 since then without the benefit of Norm's senior class, for a winning percentage of .37.

Lavin had great success at UCLA riding Wooden's coattails, and some success at SJ, riding Norm's. As to whether he'll succeed on his own in the here and now or whether he'll merely suck: except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Lavin had great success at UCLA riding Wooden's coattails, and some success at SJ, riding Norm's.

2nd part is one of the funniest statements ever written.

Your right because Fun rarely comments on actual basketball.

I talk about basketball with people who know something about it. Hence our dearth of intercourse.

Quote from: Moose on September 07, 2012, 10:54:44 AM

Your right because Fun rarely comments on actual basketball.

I talk about basketball with people who know something about it. Hence our dearth of intercourse.

Guess your implying nobody on this site knows anything about basketball because you don't talk to anyone here about basketball.
But carry on doing what you do because every village needs one.

No one is addressing the argument Fun made and WASJU concurred with.   

We added depth yes, and some height, but the simple truth is we couldn't score last year.
We shot horribly from the field and 3pt, turned the ball over a lot, couldn't get an assist if our life depended on it, and didn't hit our foul shots.   

How do the new additions + the loss of Moe = a VASTLY improved team?    I think that's a legitimate question to be debated.

Our rebounding and interior defense should improve some, I think that's something everyone can agree on.  Sampson/Obekpa/Sanchez/Gift  should be an improvement over Moe/Gift.

But, the offense?   That's much less clear to me.
Do Sampson/Sanchez make up for the loss of Moe?   Maybe.
Is Branch a difference maker?   From what I saw of him at AM, he's clearly a D1 pg... but a difference maker?  I didn't see anything that showed he would be that right off the bat.   

   

No one is addressing the argument Fun made and WASJU concurred with.   

We added depth yes, and some height, but the simple truth is we couldn't score last year.
We shot horribly from the field and 3pt, turned the ball over a lot, couldn't get an assist if our life depended on it, and didn't hit our foul shots.   

How do the new additions + the loss of Moe = a VASTLY improved team?    I think that's a legitimate question to be debated.

Our rebounding and interior defense should improve some, I think that's something everyone can agree on.  Sampson/Obekpa/Sanchez/Gift  should be an improvement over Moe/Gift.

But, the offense?   That's much less clear to me.
Do Sampson/Sanchez make up for the loss of Moe?   Maybe.
Is Branch a difference maker?   From what I saw of him at AM, he's clearly a D1 pg... but a difference maker?  I didn't see anything that showed he would be that right off the bat.   

 

But do you not see how depth at every position will make all the difference. D'Angelo will no longer have the burden of playing 40 minutes a game.

Tired legs = low shooting percentage.

It's safe to say all of our guys had tired legs at the end of games last year.

I also think you must be underestimating the experience factor. A majority of the time, a players FG% increases each year they play.

For the assists question, we have added a pure PG who was ranked in the top 70 out of HS. Last year, all we had was a freshman combo guard holding down the point.

I understand Moe was a great talent, and would've made our team even better this year, but like I said before, give me a top 70 Branch, a top 50 Sampson, a top 70 Obekpa, a top JUCO and some role players and a shooter any day of the week over one more year of Moe.  Call me crazy.

Quote from: desco80 on September 07, 2012, 02:31:01 PM

No one is addressing the argument Fun made and WASJU concurred with.   

We added depth yes, and some height, but the simple truth is we couldn't score last year.
We shot horribly from the field and 3pt, turned the ball over a lot, couldn't get an assist if our life depended on it, and didn't hit our foul shots.   

How do the new additions + the loss of Moe = a VASTLY improved team?    I think that's a legitimate question to be debated.

Our rebounding and interior defense should improve some, I think that's something everyone can agree on.  Sampson/Obekpa/Sanchez/Gift  should be an improvement over Moe/Gift.

But, the offense?   That's much less clear to me.
Do Sampson/Sanchez make up for the loss of Moe?   Maybe.
Is Branch a difference maker?   From what I saw of him at AM, he's clearly a D1 pg... but a difference maker?  I didn't see anything that showed he would be that right off the bat.   

 

But do you not see how depth at every position will make all the difference. D'Angelo will no longer have the burden of playing 40 minutes a game.

Tired legs = low shooting percentage.

It's safe to say all of our guys had tired legs at the end of games last year.

I also think you must be underestimating the experience factor. A majority of the time, a players FG% increases each year they play.

For the assists question, we have added a pure PG who was ranked in the top 70 out of HS. Last year, all we had was a freshman combo guard holding down the point.

I understand Moe was a great talent, and would've made our team even better this year, but like I said before, give me a top 70 Branch, a top 50 Sampson, a top 70 Obekpa, a top JUCO and some role players and a shooter any day of the week over one more year of Moe.  Call me crazy.

Maybe just the lingering mindset here at St. Johns?   

Elite level talent has been so far and few between the last decade or so, maybe some can't fathom that it IS quite possible to replace even elite talent on a regular basis.   

 All I can keep repeating is that the team that went to the NCAA's in 2011 had ONE player ranked in the top 100 out of high school.   And yes, we've lost a top 40 ranked forward from last year's team. But this years team will have a top 50 Center.  A top 35 forward.  A top 40 Forward.  A top 75 Forward.  A top 50 Shooting Guard.  A Top 50 Point Guard.    And TWO JC All-American bigs.   Plus 4 others, including the returning starting PG, a pure shooting JC Wing, an Athletic freak Gaurd, and a bruiser with size, bulk, hops and agility.