Predicitions

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crgreen

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2012, 04:20:38 PM »
who woke you guys up?  a hard hard worker and a elite student and a truly special ambassador of the new regime.

Think this was discussed in another thread.  MOST JC players are MUCH more effective (improved)  their 2nd years than their first.   Look at  SJU's last two - how did Hardy and Brownlee's  Junior seasons compare to their Senior years?

LJSA

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2012, 04:48:24 PM »
I think most people expect Sanchez to start, which pushes GGA to the bench. If Obekpa shows anything, that cuts into GGA's time as well. His shooting percentage may go up, but his stats may be down across the board otherwise. But that's why games aren't played on paper, I guess. We shall see soon enough.

crgreen

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2012, 07:26:43 PM »
I think most people expect Sanchez to start, which pushes GGA to the bench. If Obekpa shows anything, that cuts into GGA's time as well. His shooting percentage may go up, but his stats may be down across the board otherwise. But that's why games aren't played on paper, I guess. We shall see soon enough.

You know, it's very possible for Gift to BE the most improved of last years players, and still not be BETTER than the newcomers (be it Sanchez, Sampson or Obekpa).   The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Re: Predicitions
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2012, 03:46:03 PM »
who woke you guys up?  a hard hard worker and a elite student and a truly special ambassador of the new regime.

Think this was discussed in another thread.  MOST JC players are MUCH more effective (improved)  their 2nd years than their first.   Look at  SJU's last two - how did Hardy and Brownlee's  Junior seasons compare to their Senior years?
Agree with your premise but not a good example cr as the biggest factor was a regime change. :)

crgreen

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2012, 04:02:03 PM »
who woke you guys up?  a hard hard worker and a elite student and a truly special ambassador of the new regime.

Think this was discussed in another thread.  MOST JC players are MUCH more effective (improved)  their 2nd years than their first.   Look at  SJU's last two - how did Hardy and Brownlee's  Junior seasons compare to their Senior years?
Agree with your premise but not a good example cr as the biggest factor was a regime change. :)
Well, I hate to bring up UCLA examples, but Sid Wicks was a 9pt 5 reb reserve his first year out of JC, NCAA Player of the Year his second :)  He's one of two JCs to win NCAA POY for the Bruins as seniors after coming in from JC.   And Lazeric Jones just led the bruins in scoring, Assists, Steals and Minutes his 2nd year out of JC this past season, after finishing 5th in scoring his first year.  (I tried to find an online list of SJU players who were JC transfers, but can't find one.  Sorry.)

Foad

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2012, 05:14:27 PM »
(I tried to find an online list of SJU players who were JC transfers, but can't find one.  Sorry.)

Some Jucos: Boo Harvey, James Scott, Billy Goodwin, Bootsy Thornton, Marcus Hatten, Walter Berry, Dwight Hardy, Justin Brownlee, Michael Porter, Billy Paultz. It could be that that group could beat any team of regular SJ recruits.

Re: Predicitions
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2012, 05:33:50 PM »
give me mullin and any four players and a three point line

crgreen

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2012, 05:52:00 PM »
(I tried to find an online list of SJU players who were JC transfers, but can't find one.  Sorry.)

Some Jucos: Boo Harvey, James Scott, Billy Goodwin, Bootsy Thornton, Marcus Hatten, Walter Berry, Dwight Hardy, Justin Brownlee, Michael Porter, Billy Paultz. It could be that that group could beat any team of regular SJ recruits.

THANKS!

JCs, 1st year/2nd year:

Walter Berry, 17.8pts-8.3rebs/23.0pts-11.1rebs
Billy Paultz,  8.0pts-6.6rebs/15.8pts-14.4rebs
Boo Harvey, 11.9pts/16.5pts
James Scott, 11.2pts/14.0pts
Bootsy Thornton, 14.9pts/15.3pts
Marcus Hatten, 20.1pts/22.2pts
Dwight Hardy, 10.5pts/18.3pts
Justin Brownlee, 6.8pts-4.5rebs/12.3pts-5.2rebs

Can't find stats on Goodwin or Porter...

ras

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2012, 06:36:00 PM »
GG will improve, but his stats wont, except FG %. Last year w 6 players on the team he played a lot. This year w the depth his minutes will be much less.

redslope

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2012, 06:53:00 PM »
(I tried to find an online list of SJU players who were JC transfers, but can't find one.  Sorry.)

Some Jucos: Boo Harvey, James Scott, Billy Goodwin, Bootsy Thornton, Marcus Hatten, Walter Berry, Dwight Hardy, Justin Brownlee, Michael Porter, Billy Paultz. It could be that that group could beat any team of regular SJ recruits.

THANKS!

JCs, 1st year/2nd year:

Walter Berry, 17.8pts-8.3rebs/23.0pts-11.1rebs
Billy Paultz,  8.0pts-6.6rebs/15.8pts-14.4rebs
Boo Harvey, 11.9pts/16.5pts
James Scott, 11.2pts/14.0pts
Bootsy Thornton, 14.9pts/15.3pts
Marcus Hatten, 20.1pts/22.2pts
Dwight Hardy, 10.5pts/18.3pts
Justin Brownlee, 6.8pts-4.5rebs/12.3pts-5.2rebs

Can't find stats on Goodwin or Porter...

Goodwin went from 9.1 to 14.7.

Stats about an individual player can prove many things when one looks at them in a vacuum.  In most cases, I believe that one should looks at the surrounding cast.  Yes Paultz's numbers went up his 1969 team included one of my fav's John Warren who averaged 20 and Joe Depre who averaged 16; also Carmine Calzonetti at point with players he played 3 years with and the recently departed Ralph Abraham who averaged 9 reb/game.

In Harvey's first year he had Shelton Jones as a senior scoring about 19, Jason as a soph; and Michael Porter who loved to shoot and was his running mate from JC.  Also Shelton made 2nd team BE and Michael Porter made 3rd BE in Harvey's first year.

Berry's first year was with Mullin/Wennington which probably effected his stats.

Marcus was unique but who was with him to "stifle" his game.

there is a possibility the Hardy/Brownlee improvements were the result of better usage of their talents as the cast of characters was basically the same.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 06:58:58 PM by redslope »

crgreen

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2012, 08:00:34 PM »
(I tried to find an online list of SJU players who were JC transfers, but can't find one.  Sorry.)

Some Jucos: Boo Harvey, James Scott, Billy Goodwin, Bootsy Thornton, Marcus Hatten, Walter Berry, Dwight Hardy, Justin Brownlee, Michael Porter, Billy Paultz. It could be that that group could beat any team of regular SJ recruits.

THANKS!

JCs, 1st year/2nd year:

Walter Berry, 17.8pts-8.3rebs/23.0pts-11.1rebs
Billy Paultz,  8.0pts-6.6rebs/15.8pts-14.4rebs
Boo Harvey, 11.9pts/16.5pts
James Scott, 11.2pts/14.0pts
Bootsy Thornton, 14.9pts/15.3pts
Marcus Hatten, 20.1pts/22.2pts
Dwight Hardy, 10.5pts/18.3pts
Justin Brownlee, 6.8pts-4.5rebs/12.3pts-5.2rebs

Can't find stats on Goodwin or Porter...

Goodwin went from 9.1 to 14.7.

Stats about an individual player can prove many things when one looks at them in a vacuum.  In most cases, I believe that one should looks at the surrounding cast.  Yes Paultz's numbers went up his 1969 team included one of my fav's John Warren who averaged 20 and Joe Depre who averaged 16; also Carmine Calzonetti at point with players he played 3 years with and the recently departed Ralph Abraham who averaged 9 reb/game.

In Harvey's first year he had Shelton Jones as a senior scoring about 19, Jason as a soph; and Michael Porter who loved to shoot and was his running mate from JC.  Also Shelton made 2nd team BE and Michael Porter made 3rd BE in Harvey's first year.

Berry's first year was with Mullin/Wennington which probably effected his stats.

Marcus was unique but who was with him to "stifle" his game.

there is a possibility the Hardy/Brownlee improvements were the result of better usage of their talents as the cast of characters was basically the same.

Or, more simply, my basic premise --- whatever the reasons or circumstances, MOST Junior College kids improve from 1st to 2nd year at their destination school...

you know, folks talk about GG like he was some kind of dismal failure who only put up mediocre numbers because he got ungodly minutes.   I'd remind that Sir Dom and Phil got MORE minutes, Amir got 27 to GG's 29.    Gift outscored and outrebounded and outshot them all.  Yet THEY'RE the three most expect to be "most improved" -  Gift was our THIRD LEADING SCORER, SECOND BEST Rebounder, and our BEST shooter from the field BY FAR (53%!), despite being matched up against the biggest and strongest players on the opposition every game.  And he's by FAR the most experienced college player on our roster.

Re: Predicitions
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2012, 12:21:52 AM »
(I tried to find an online list of SJU players who were JC transfers, but can't find one.  Sorry.)

Some Jucos: Boo Harvey, James Scott, Billy Goodwin, Bootsy Thornton, Marcus Hatten, Walter Berry, Dwight Hardy, Justin Brownlee, Michael Porter, Billy Paultz. It could be that that group could beat any team of regular SJ recruits.

THANKS!

JCs, 1st year/2nd year:

Walter Berry, 17.8pts-8.3rebs/23.0pts-11.1rebs
Billy Paultz,  8.0pts-6.6rebs/15.8pts-14.4rebs
Boo Harvey, 11.9pts/16.5pts
James Scott, 11.2pts/14.0pts
Bootsy Thornton, 14.9pts/15.3pts
Marcus Hatten, 20.1pts/22.2pts
Dwight Hardy, 10.5pts/18.3pts
Justin Brownlee, 6.8pts-4.5rebs/12.3pts-5.2rebs

Can't find stats on Goodwin or Porter...

The Whopper averaged 14.4 boards a game?  Was it pre-shot clock?  Is that even possible?

MCNPA

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2012, 12:42:53 AM »
Gift will be very valuable to have around this year.  I think the skills he does have will shine more now with help up front.  It will be an absolute luxury for SJU to have 2 bigs in Obekpa and Gift.  Can't remember the last time we had strong, athletic and skilled guys like that up front.  Don't sell Gift short.  He did a lot f work for us last year.  He played in a role that made it very difficult and really battled.  I expect he'll be much improved as well and it should bode well for us.

crgreen

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2012, 01:29:41 AM »
Gift will be very valuable to have around this year.  I think the skills he does have will shine more now with help up front.  It will be an absolute luxury for SJU to have 2 bigs in Obekpa and Gift.  Can't remember the last time we had strong, athletic and skilled guys like that up front.  Don't sell Gift short.  He did a lot f work for us last year.  He played in a role that made it very difficult and really battled.  I expect he'll be much improved as well and it should bode well for us.

Billy was an hellacious rebounder - especially on the defensive end.  He's #7 All Time in ABA history in Rebouding, #4 all time for Defensive Rebounds...Oh, and he's also #3 all time in ABA history in Blocked Shots.

His per game rebound numbers went down after the merger and he joined the NBA.  But only 'cause his minutes went down in the deeper league.  His per 36 numbers  his last 3 years in the ABA were 10.8, 9.8, 10.5.   After the merger, his next 6 seasons they were 9.2, 9.8, 10.6, 9.6, 9.5, 9.7.    The WORST per 36 rebounding number in his 15 years in the pros was 8.0, in his 10th season.   But he finsished strong, with 9.5 in his 13th season, 8.4 in his 14th, and 9.3 in his 15th and final year.   

Hellacious.

Don't know if I've mentioned it here, but I worked for several years in the ABA.   Really feel the guys from that league have gotten short shrift.     I'm talking guys who played the same opposition over those years, and EQUALED OR OUT PERFORMED  Doctor J, Rick Barry, Moses Malone, Connie Hawkins, Spencer Haywood, George Gervin, Dan Issell, Artis Gilmore, Charlie Scott, David Thompson, etc.

As a UCLA fan I was thrilled to see 3 Bruins in this past Hall of Fame induction class.  But MORE thrilled that they FINALLY recognized the GREAT Mel Daniels.....and absolutely insane that the ABA's all time leader in both scoring AND assists, Louie Dampier, is on the outside looking in.

When I see we're on a big kid named Jessie Govan, my brain flashes back to one of the best passing bigs I've ever seen, Jersey's own Gerald Govan - 6'10, 12th in ABA history in assists and 3rd all time in Rebounds (a fairly unique combination) - he retired at age 34 the year before the merger, so NBA fans never got to see him play....wonder if young Jessie is related?

Re: Predicitions
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2012, 08:37:08 AM »
give me mullin and any four players and a three point line
Better include some three year players too, Leroy Ellis, Tony Jackson, Kevin Loughery, Sonny Dove, Kenny McIntyre.

redslope

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2012, 10:35:25 AM »


Billy was an hellacious rebounder - especially on the defensive end.  He's #7 All Time in ABA history in Rebouding, #4 all time for Defensive Rebounds...Oh, and he's also #3 all time in ABA history in Blocked Shots.

His per game rebound numbers went down after the merger and he joined the NBA.  But only 'cause his minutes went down in the deeper league.  His per 36 numbers  his last 3 years in the ABA were 10.8, 9.8, 10.5.   After the merger, his next 6 seasons they were 9.2, 9.8, 10.6, 9.6, 9.5, 9.7.    The WORST per 36 rebounding number in his 15 years in the pros was 8.0, in his 10th season.   But he finsished strong, with 9.5 in his 13th season, 8.4 in his 14th, and 9.3 in his 15th and final year.   

Hellacious.

Don't know if I've mentioned it here, but I worked for several years in the ABA.   Really feel the guys from that league have gotten short shrift.     I'm talking guys who played the same opposition over those years, and EQUALED OR OUT PERFORMED  Doctor J, Rick Barry, Moses Malone, Connie Hawkins, Spencer Haywood, George Gervin, Dan Issell, Artis Gilmore, Charlie Scott, David Thompson, etc.

As a UCLA fan I was thrilled to see 3 Bruins in this past Hall of Fame induction class.  But MORE thrilled that they FINALLY recognized the GREAT Mel Daniels.....and absolutely insane that the ABA's all time leader in both scoring AND assists, Louie Dampier, is on the outside looking in.

When I see we're on a big kid named Jessie Govan, my brain flashes back to one of the best passing bigs I've ever seen, Jersey's own Gerald Govan - 6'10, 12th in ABA history in assists and 3rd all time in Rebounds (a fairly unique combination) - he retired at age 34 the year before the merger, so NBA fans never got to see him play....wonder if young Jessie is related?

Couldn't agree with you more regarding ABA.  I to this day believe that Dr. J in the ABA was better than Jordan.  The excitement Dr. J created was unbelievable in the Nassau Colesium to anyone who saw him play there.  His play after the trade by the Nets was hampered by the "curse of Roy Bowe"

desco80

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2012, 07:42:00 PM »
my basic premise --- whatever the reasons or circumstances, MOST Junior College kids improve from 1st to 2nd year at their destination school...

Definitely agree with you about the accolades due many of the ABA stars.  Dr J has always gotten publicity, and still gets his due.   But I agree the rest of the ABA alumni can get overlooked.  And it's interesting to hear you worked in their offices for awhile, you should definitely share any stories that come to mind.   

But I can't agree with your theory that most JUCO players improve from their first to second seasons, we simply don't know that.
The stats you listed don't show that former JUCO players improve from their first to second seasons, they show that college basketball players who play more minutes score more points!

Walter Berry 33mins / 36mins
Bootsy Thornton, 30mins / 35mins
Dwight Hardy, 22mins / 34mins
Justin Brownlee, 18mins/ 30mins

I couldn't find the minutes played for everyone you listed, but for guys like Paultz and James Scott it's safe to assume they saw more minutes as well; (both saw their shot attempts increase more than 50% in their second seasons)   Hatten was the only guy who played equal minutes (or less) and scored more points, thus indicating he improved from his first to second seasons in D-1.    And I'll even concede that Berry's 6 points more per game in his second season weren't because he got 2 extra mins... , but I do think it could be because a 20pt scorer had just graduated.

My point is, all the guys you listed (except for Hatten) got more opportunity their second seasons.  Maybe they did improve a lot from season 1 to season 2, but you can't draw that conclusion from those numbers. 

And as for God's Gift, you know by now I have a different view of his skill set than you do.   But what you said of him is true; he is, by far, the most experienced college player on our roster.   
What that tells me however is he's much closer to a finished product than a Dom Pointer or Amir Garrett who don't have the experience of three seasons of college basketball.   
And to use Gift's numbers comparative to our team last season to prove his ability is equally intellectually dishonest; of course he was second in rebounds and the third scorer, he played on team without another big men!   And, as you've pointed out in another thread- he was playing significant minutes.    If anyone other than Moe had more rebounds than Gift, an investigation would be necessary, because I would think GG was throwing the games.
And finally, to say the man who takes all his shots in the paint led the team in FG%, tells me very little indeed.   

All of which is to say; stats can tell us a lot of things, but they don't prove what you're trying to show in the case of JUCO players improving in their second seasons or God's Gift's production last year. 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 07:43:27 PM by desco80 »

Poison

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2012, 09:34:46 PM »
The he played without another big man argument is soft IMO. The team played better without any big man because Gift didn't know what he was doing out there.

Re: Predicitions
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2012, 10:25:34 PM »
Top Scorer: Harrison
Top Rebounder: Obekpa
Assist Leader: Phil
Top Shot Blocker: Obekpa
Steal Leader: Amir
Most Improved Player: Phil
Least Improved Player: Amir
Top Overall Newcomer (including a Freshman, Transfer or JUCO):Sanchez
Top Freshman: Jones

ras

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Re: Predicitions
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2012, 11:28:33 PM »
Top Scorer: Harrison
Top Rebounder: Obekpa
Assist Leader: Phil
Top Shot Blocker: Obekpa
Steal Leader: Amir
Most Improved Player: Phil
Least Improved Player: Amir
Top Overall Newcomer (including a Freshman, Transfer or JUCO):Sanchez
Top Freshman: Jones
You think Jones is going to be better then Sampson?