Baylor - Game Discussion

It would have been nice to beat a rank team just to get that monkey off our back...I know it's early but that is one thing that will keep being brought up until we actually do it.

What do you guys make of Jay Williams saying Sanchez could start.in the NBA right now according to what Watson told him?

Quote from: we are sju on November 18, 2012, 08:19:16 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 18, 2012, 08:16:39 PM

Quote from: we are sju on November 18, 2012, 08:13:41 PM

Quote from: paultzman on November 18, 2012, 08:00:44 PM

Based on what I have seen, we need Sanchez more than Branch. Our rebounding is atrocious!

That was also the worst zone defense ever. What was the point of it?  Let them shoot threes than not be in rebounding position when they missed? That was a real bad job by Lavin of making in game adjustments. Actualy he made no adjustment.  I guess the saying "shooting them out of the zone" does not apply to us.

Maybe you weren't actually watching because Lavin switched to man defense.

They played 95% zone, maybe you weren't watching or are not sure what a zone is?

You said he made no adjustment.  Just admit you are wrong.  He did adjust.  Actually, we were very effective for most of the game with that zone.  We did a poor job blanketing Heslip with or without the zone.  Point is that adjustments were made but we still got burned.

You are an idiot and I will not respond to any of your posts ever again. Zone was great, we gave up 97 points and were outrebounded by 20.

Coach did have a great half time speech. "Heslip keeps shooting wide open threes, we can't rebound and our pets heads are falling off"

Quote from: MCNPA on November 18, 2012, 08:39:31 PM

Quote from: we are sju on November 18, 2012, 08:19:16 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 18, 2012, 08:16:39 PM

Quote from: we are sju on November 18, 2012, 08:13:41 PM

Quote from: paultzman on November 18, 2012, 08:00:44 PM

Based on what I have seen, we need Sanchez more than Branch. Our rebounding is atrocious!

That was also the worst zone defense ever. What was the point of it?  Let them shoot threes than not be in rebounding position when they missed? That was a real bad job by Lavin of making in game adjustments. Actualy he made no adjustment.  I guess the saying "shooting them out of the zone" does not apply to us.

Maybe you weren't actually watching because Lavin switched to man defense.

They played 95% zone, maybe you weren't watching or are not sure what a zone is?

You said he made no adjustment.  Just admit you are wrong.  He did adjust.  Actually, we were very effective for most of the game with that zone.  We did a poor job blanketing Heslip with or without the zone.  Point is that adjustments were made but we still got burned.

You are an idiot and I will not respond to any of your posts ever again. Zone was great, we gave up 97 points and were outrebounded by 20.

To be fair, the zone Lavin is trying to use is complicated to learn. If you remember back to the 2010-11 team, they too had a lot of trouble getting used to the zone at the beginning of the season. But eventually, they got it together. I remember the same questions arose back then asking why Lavin refused to make adjustments.

Quote from: we are sju on November 18, 2012, 10:15:46 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 18, 2012, 08:39:31 PM

Quote from: we are sju on November 18, 2012, 08:19:16 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 18, 2012, 08:16:39 PM

Quote from: we are sju on November 18, 2012, 08:13:41 PM

Quote from: paultzman on November 18, 2012, 08:00:44 PM

Based on what I have seen, we need Sanchez more than Branch. Our rebounding is atrocious!

That was also the worst zone defense ever. What was the point of it?  Let them shoot threes than not be in rebounding position when they missed? That was a real bad job by Lavin of making in game adjustments. Actualy he made no adjustment.  I guess the saying "shooting them out of the zone" does not apply to us.

Maybe you weren't actually watching because Lavin switched to man defense.

They played 95% zone, maybe you weren't watching or are not sure what a zone is?

You said he made no adjustment.  Just admit you are wrong.  He did adjust.  Actually, we were very effective for most of the game with that zone.  We did a poor job blanketing Heslip with or without the zone.  Point is that adjustments were made but we still got burned.

You are an idiot and I will not respond to any of your posts ever again. Zone was great, we gave up 97 points and were outrebounded by 20.

To be fair, the zone Lavin is trying to use is complicated to learn. If you remember back to the 2010-11 team, they too had a lot of trouble getting used to the zone at the beginning of the season. But eventually, they got it together. I remember the same questions arose back then asking why Lavin refused to make adjustments.

We gave up 45 points at the half. I don't love zones personally, but it was pretty evident when they were hitting wide open threes and playing volleyball that we should have went to man for the rest of the game. If we didn't shoot better than normal we would have lost by 40. Lavin likes zone and that is fine but if it is not working you have to come out of it.

Quote from: MCNPA on November 18, 2012, 08:39:31 PM

Quote from: we are sju on November 18, 2012, 08:19:16 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 18, 2012, 08:16:39 PM

Quote from: we are sju on November 18, 2012, 08:13:41 PM

Quote from: paultzman on November 18, 2012, 08:00:44 PM

Based on what I have seen, we need Sanchez more than Branch. Our rebounding is atrocious!

That was also the worst zone defense ever. What was the point of it?  Let them shoot threes than not be in rebounding position when they missed? That was a real bad job by Lavin of making in game adjustments. Actualy he made no adjustment.  I guess the saying "shooting them out of the zone" does not apply to us.

Maybe you weren't actually watching because Lavin switched to man defense.

They played 95% zone, maybe you weren't watching or are not sure what a zone is?

You said he made no adjustment.  Just admit you are wrong.  He did adjust.  Actually, we were very effective for most of the game with that zone.  We did a poor job blanketing Heslip with or without the zone.  Point is that adjustments were made but we still got burned.

You are an idiot and I will not respond to any of your posts ever again. Zone was great, we gave up 97 points and were outrebounded by 20.

Coach did have a great half time speech. "Heslip keeps shooting wide open threes, we can't rebound and our pets heads are falling off"

Good idea.  You probably shouldn't respond when you don't know what you're talking about and are going to fabricate.   You said he didn't adjust, but he did.  Plain as day, he switched out of the zone to man. We still didnt check Heslip. We're not the first team that couldn't check the best shooter in the country.  They couldn't check Harrison at all either.   We gave up 97 points, but they were only ahead by one or two possessions with about 3 minutes left.  They ran it up at the end in garbage time, so the 97 points is a bit misleading. 

Moose you are correct.  On second thought Im.cousing our second half fatigue with a lack of depth.  They aren't one and the same.   Were playing enough #s of guys, i just think Marco and Felix need to be used.more to keep Phil and Dangelo fresh.

Again, this is frustrating but we knew there would be growing pains with this team.   Big wins were not going to.come easy to us right out of the gate.  But hopefully this.motivates the guys to put in the effort in practice for the next month or.so.

And anyone who says.they.know the.one thing we need to improve to start winning, is lying to themselves.
From what i saw the last two games we need to improve moderately in a number of areas, that cumulatively will have a big effect.
There are multiple areas to work on, but defense.and rebounding are at the.top of the.list.

People also need to be reminded that against both Murray State and Baylor, we were within one or two possessions in the last 4 minutes of each game.  The losses were a lot more narrow than many making it seem.

People also need to be reminded that against both Murray State and Baylor, we were within one or two possessions in the last 4 minutes of each game.  The losses were a lot more narrow than many making it seem.

Yea but why do the wheels fall off with 5 to go?

Quote from: we are sju on November 18, 2012, 10:15:46 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 18, 2012, 08:39:31 PM

Quote from: we are sju on November 18, 2012, 08:19:16 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 18, 2012, 08:16:39 PM

Quote from: we are sju on November 18, 2012, 08:13:41 PM

Quote from: paultzman on November 18, 2012, 08:00:44 PM

Based on what I have seen, we need Sanchez more than Branch. Our rebounding is atrocious!

That was also the worst zone defense ever. What was the point of it?  Let them shoot threes than not be in rebounding position when they missed? That was a real bad job by Lavin of making in game adjustments. Actualy he made no adjustment.  I guess the saying "shooting them out of the zone" does not apply to us.

Maybe you weren't actually watching because Lavin switched to man defense.

They played 95% zone, maybe you weren't watching or are not sure what a zone is?

You said he made no adjustment.  Just admit you are wrong.  He did adjust.  Actually, we were very effective for most of the game with that zone.  We did a poor job blanketing Heslip with or without the zone.  Point is that adjustments were made but we still got burned.

You are an idiot and I will not respond to any of your posts ever again. Zone was great, we gave up 97 points and were outrebounded by 20.

Coach did have a great half time speech. "Heslip keeps shooting wide open threes, we can't rebound and our pets heads are falling off"

Good idea.  You probably shouldn't respond when you don't know what you're talking about and are going to fabricate.   You said he didn't adjust, but he did.  Plain as day, he switched out of the zone to man. We still didnt check Heslip. We're not the first team that couldn't check the best shooter in the country.  They couldn't check Harrison at all either.   We gave up 97 points, but they were only ahead by one or two possessions with about 3 minutes left.  They ran it up at the end in garbage time, so the 97 points is a bit misleading. 

We were clearly watching a different game. In fact I am not even sure your TV was even plugged in.

Now I will respond to some sane people. I like Lavin and understand that you tke the good with the bad. His positives far outweigh the negatives. That being said everyone except Lloyd Christmas from PA understands that Coach is not considered a great game coach. That is fine either was Louie. From time to time people will question moves. It is ok to do so. It is pure ignorance to defend everything that a coach does just becuase you like him. That kind of thinking is why people put up with Norm for so long.

Kudos also to Phil Greene 25 pts 7 assists, 5 Rebs and 1 t/o.  Fantastic line.  I know we keep waiting for Branch, but Greene had a spectacular game and 7 assists is as "pure pg" as it gets.  He's really stepped up and IMO is our most consistent player by far right now.

Quote from: MCNPA on November 18, 2012, 10:37:47 PM

People also need to be reminded that against both Murray State and Baylor, we were within one or two possessions in the last 4 minutes of each game.  The losses were a lot more narrow than many making it seem.

Yea but why do the wheels fall off with 5 to go?

In todays game.I think we were keeping it artifically close.
Phil was hitting ridiculous floaters that a good player typically makes %50 of, and for Dangelo to hit his first 5 threes is't sustainable over the.course of the game either.
What was a tied game in the second half didn't feel like it to those watching.

But there is also something to us faulting down the stretch.   I don't think we were playing them evenly to begin with,.but they were able to.separate even.more down the final stretch. 

Mostly I.think other teams play their best defense in the last 4 minutes and that's when we play our worst.

Quote from: Moose on November 18, 2012, 10:39:12 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 18, 2012, 10:37:47 PM

People also need to be reminded that against both Murray State and Baylor, we were within one or two possessions in the last 4 minutes of each game.  The losses were a lot more narrow than many making it seem.

Yea but why do the wheels fall off with 5 to go?

In todays game.I think we were keeping it artifically close.
Phil was hitting ridiculous floaters that a good player typically makes %50 of, and for Dangelo to hit his first 5 threes is't sustainable over the.course of the game either.
What was a tied game in the second half didn't feel like it to those watching.

But there is also something to us faulting down the stretch.   I don't think we were playing them evenly to begin with,.but they were able to.separate even.more down the final stretch. 

Mostly I.think other teams play their best defense in the last 4 minutes and that's when we play our worst.

Fair but if you use the words artificially and sustainable same can be said for Heslip.  After building a 7 or 8 point lead I think we peaked, Baylor came back and then we spent the majority of the game trading baskets.

Quote from: Moose on November 18, 2012, 10:39:12 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 18, 2012, 10:37:47 PM

People also need to be reminded that against both Murray State and Baylor, we were within one or two possessions in the last 4 minutes of each game.  The losses were a lot more narrow than many making it seem.

Yea but why do the wheels fall off with 5 to go?

In todays game.I think we were keeping it artifically close.
Phil was hitting ridiculous floaters that a good player typically makes %50 of, and for Dangelo to hit his first 5 threes is't sustainable over the.course of the game either.
What was a tied game in the second half didn't feel like it to those watching.

But there is also something to us faulting down the stretch.   I don't think we were playing them evenly to begin with,.but they were able to.separate even.more down the final stretch. 

Mostly I.think other teams play their best defense in the last 4 minutes and that's when we play our worst.

Yeah, if Harrison's shooting was artificial so was that guy hitting 8-12 threes

Fair enough.  Heslips shooting was off the.charts.too.

We can agree though st johns wilts down the stretch.   
Whether or not we were.getting lucky all game, other teams turn.it.on in the last 4 minutes and we seem to go in the opposite direction. 

Just re-watched the game.

2 of their threes came off inbounds plays
2 came against man D
At least 2 were deep, challenged threes that went in.

(and btw...the culprit on a bunch of those threes was our "stopper", Dom Pointer)

I'm not a fan of that zone, but even with Heslip going off we were down 1 with 6 minutes left. Its not like they hit all the threes to pull away. Heslip hit all 8 of his threes before that part of the game.

They outrebounded us 39-19. Defensive rebounds for Garrett, Obekpa and Sampson combined? Zilch- none.

The biggest thing you notice though is how Baylor got the ball in paint and dished. Probably half their assists came from inside the paint. The reason you really notice it is because we NEVER drive and dish. As much as I love PG4 and his little teardrop, he never drives and dishes and when Harrison puts in on the floor he's a black hole. Thats something we have to do, especially if we're going to get Marco some open looks.

Lavin needs to sub more.  Its clear they are tired in the 2nd half. Felix has done great in the very limited action he's seen.  Play him!  At who's expense I don't care.  Marco is going to need a few games to get in the groove.  Thankfully we have some lighter teams to do that.

Agree 100%...At this point, I think he shoud be running our interchangeables in and out so that we can avoid the runs that have killed us in the last 2 games...

Quote from: jhafner on November 18, 2012, 08:29:28 PM

Harrison needs to shrink his head.  No player is more important than the team.  Chucking up 3s and poor D doesn't cut it.  He is an immature leader.  Why did Lav not play Jones when we were getting destroyed inside?  What happened to the great inside plays we saw in the first few games? So far Balamou has exceeded expectations.  Sampson continues to impress.  What is brutal and also hope inspiring is that both of these losing games were winnable.

can't read coach's mind, but my guess is that jones got pulled for not being physical enough.  he has that great body.  but we had no inside presence.  i thought jakar played tough inside.  that's about it.  otherwise, we were manhandled.

I think somewhere along the line we will need a bit of nastiness

Just re-watched the game.

2 of their threes came off inbounds plays
2 came against man D
At least 2 were deep, challenged threes that went in.

(and btw...the culprit on a bunch of those threes was our "stopper", Dom Pointer)

I'm not a fan of that zone, but even with Heslip going off we were down 1 with 6 minutes left. Its not like they hit all the threes to pull away. Heslip hit all 8 of his threes before that part of the game.

They outrebounded us 39-19. Defensive rebounds for Garrett, Obekpa and Sampson combined? Zilch- none.

The biggest thing you notice though is how Baylor got the ball in paint and dished. Probably half their assists came from inside the paint. The reason you really notice it is because we NEVER drive and dish. As much as I love PG4 and his little teardrop, he never drives and dishes and when Harrison puts in on the floor he's a black hole. Thats something we have to do, especially if we're going to get Marco some open looks.

Feel exactly the same way about the drive and kick. Once in a while Phil does it but not regularly. Deangelos assists come in transition or nice dumpoffs but he doesnt look to kick it out.

Just re-watched the game.

2 of their threes came off inbounds plays
2 came against man D
At least 2 were deep, challenged threes that went in.

(and btw...the culprit on a bunch of those threes was our "stopper", Dom Pointer)

I'm not a fan of that zone, but even with Heslip going off we were down 1 with 6 minutes left. Its not like they hit all the threes to pull away. Heslip hit all 8 of his threes before that part of the game.

They outrebounded us 39-19. Defensive rebounds for Garrett, Obekpa and Sampson combined? Zilch- none.

The biggest thing you notice though is how Baylor got the ball in paint and dished. Probably half their assists came from inside the paint. The reason you really notice it is because we NEVER drive and dish. As much as I love PG4 and his little teardrop, he never drives and dishes and when Harrison puts in on the floor he's a black hole. Thats something we have to do, especially if we're going to get Marco some open looks.

Great post