Baylor - Game Discussion

Just re-watched the game.

2 of their threes came off inbounds plays
2 came against man D
At least 2 were deep, challenged threes that went in.

(and btw...the culprit on a bunch of those threes was our "stopper", Dom Pointer)

I'm not a fan of that zone, but even with Heslip going off we were down 1 with 6 minutes left. Its not like they hit all the threes to pull away. Heslip hit all 8 of his threes before that part of the game.

They outrebounded us 39-19. Defensive rebounds for Garrett, Obekpa and Sampson combined? Zilch- none.

The biggest thing you notice though is how Baylor got the ball in paint and dished. Probably half their assists came from inside the paint. The reason you really notice it is because we NEVER drive and dish. As much as I love PG4 and his little teardrop, he never drives and dishes and when Harrison puts in on the floor he's a black hole. Thats something we have to
do, especially if we're going to get Marco some open looks.

Pointer has a lot of work to do. He doesn't defend anywhere near as well as his rep. None of them do, really. Maybe this going back and forth from zone to man is too much for freshman and sophs? It's not like we were this great defensive team last year.

Most teams will shoot better than us. Expecting our zone to work when we are not good enough at it to defend jump shots seems irresponsible. An adjustment clearly needs to be made. We need to see more of what our identity should produce. Man 2 Man D. 40 minutes of Hell.

lavin realizes the team is too soft to play man for 40 minutes.

the team is at its best when it plays at a slower pace.  the shots go in.  the decision making is better.  up the pace and we're in brick city.

where did anyone read that sanchez is a rebounding machine?  we could go up against the munchkinland all stars and we'd be schooled on the boards.  rebounding is not being taught...period. 

still, if the proctologists at the ncaa hadn't been amusing themselves at our expense, we could have been 4-0 with wins over murray state and colorado.  we played with baylor, but i doubt we would have beaten them at this point in the season. 

People also need to be reminded that against both Murray State and Baylor, we were within one or two possessions in the last 4 minutes of each game.  The losses were a lot more narrow than many making it seem.

Wow you are dumb! Murray State yes, Baylor we lost by 19. Only 5 year old kids look at sports the way you just posted. Do you pay someone to put your computer on for you? Frankly I am amazed you are actually able to type, unless you are just dictating to the same person who turns your computer on.

Can't say Phil Greene doesn't dish the rock with 7 assists and 1 turnover yesterday.  Not only did he scor, but dished the ball too.  Our problem is IMO mostly defensively.  We actually score well for most of the game except for a few dead periods where it seems both our offense and defense wilt.  Don't know if it is fatigue, mental toughness or what at this point, but it is something that needs I be remedied.  Lavin's first season we weren't this talented, but over course of the season we learned how to control tempo, and we got into better shape than the teams we played. 

I remember looking pretty atrocious with our zones early that season as well but improving a ton later.  I think we might need to work some other zones though than just the 1-2-2 because we were getting overloaded a bit down low at times and it led to our ability to rebound.  Much of it though, is still that the players must play all-out on defense all game long.  Can't shuffle our feet and need to take defense more personally. 

We are losing IMO because we cant defend and rebound, not because of a few offensive droughts that are usually after defensive lapses.  We will certainly get better and thus far still only have 2 close losses to 2 top 25 teams.  People predicted us as 10th+ in the Big East and I think we'll be a lot better as the season rolls on.  Now we need to add Sanchez!

People also need to be reminded that against both Murray State and Baylor, we were within one or two possessions in the last 4 minutes of each game.  The losses were a lot more narrow than many making it seem.

Wow you are dumb! Murray State yes, Baylor we lost by 19. Only 5 year old kids look at sports the way you just posted. Do you pay someone to put your computer on for you? Frankly I am amazed you are actually able to type, unless you are just dictating to the same person who turns your computer on.

I thought you weren't going to respond any more?   Your responses are adolescent.  Not worth arguing with you as I'm pretty sure you have homeroom or a gym class coming up or something.

Can't say Phil Greene doesn't dish the rock with 7 assists and 1 turnover yesterday.  Not only did he scor, but dished the ball too.  Our problem is IMO mostly defensively.  We actually score well for most of the game except for a few dead periods where it seems both our offense and defense wilt.  Don't know if it is fatigue, mental toughness or what at this point, but it is something that needs I be remedied.  Lavin's first season we weren't this talented, but over course of the season we learned how to control tempo, and we got into better shape than the teams we played. 

I remember looking pretty atrocious with our zones early that season as well but improving a ton later.  I think we might need to work some other zones though than just the 1-2-2 because we were getting overloaded a bit down low at times and it led to our ability to rebound.  Much of it though, is still that the players must play all-out on defense all game long.  Can't shuffle our feet and need to take defense more personally. 

We are losing IMO because we cant defend and rebound, not because of a few offensive droughts that are usually after defensive lapses.  We will certainly get better and thus far still only have 2 close losses to 2 top 25 teams.  People predicted us as 10th+ in the Big East and I think we'll be a lot better as the season rolls on.  Now we need to add Sanchez!

There are assists that you get because youre the last guy to touch the ball before the guy who scores, and there are real assists where you create for the scorer. I watched yesterday's game twice and I'm telling you, PG4s assists were of the former variety and not the latter. He had a great game, his shooting kept us in it...but he was not creating for others.

Agree totally about running a different zone. The irony of the 1-2-2 is that you run it to have three guys on the perimeter, ostenibly to shut down the three. Teams are attacking us inside out, and our guys are so quick and agressive that when the ball gets in the lane, we collapse so quickly that the weakside or baseline is often wiiiiiide open. Especially now that we have Obekpa, we could run the Syracuse 2-3 to perfection. Shot blocker to clog the lane, enough quickness from our forwards to still defend the perimeter, three guys on the baseline instead of two for rebounding. No brainer if you ask me.

Quote from: tnice on November 19, 2012, 01:23:21 AM

Just re-watched the game.

2 of their threes came off inbounds plays
2 came against man D
At least 2 were deep, challenged threes that went in.

(and btw...the culprit on a bunch of those threes was our "stopper", Dom Pointer)

I'm not a fan of that zone, but even with Heslip going off we were down 1 with 6 minutes left. Its not like they hit all the threes to pull away. Heslip hit all 8 of his threes before that part of the game.

They outrebounded us 39-19. Defensive rebounds for Garrett, Obekpa and Sampson combined? Zilch- none.

The biggest thing you notice though is how Baylor got the ball in paint and dished. Probably half their assists came from inside the paint. The reason you really notice it is because we NEVER drive and dish. As much as I love PG4 and his little teardrop, he never drives and dishes and when Harrison puts in on the floor he's a black hole. Thats something we have to
do, especially if we're going to get Marco some open looks.

Pointer has a lot of work to do. He doesn't defend anywhere near as well as his rep. None of them do, really. Maybe this going back and forth from zone to man is too much for freshman and sophs? It's not like we were this great defensive team last year.

Most teams will shoot better than us. Expecting our zone to work when we are not good enough at it to defend jump shots seems irresponsible. An adjustment clearly needs to be made. We need to see more of what our identity should produce. Man 2 Man D. 40 minutes of Hell.

On the ball, Pointer is a beast. The thinking part of defense-rotating, knowing where the shooter is, anticipating and fighting over screens- he has a ways to go, as they all do.

I was thinking the same thing, 2/3 zone seems more sensible and would put less pressure on Chris. When he is required to race to the wing to cover a shooter he is more prone to foul IMO. I'm not advocating abandoning man to man D, but these junk zones tend to be exploited as game progresses. Something more standard may be in order.

There are assists that you get because youre the last guy to touch the ball before the guy who scores, and there are real assists where you create for the scorer. I watched yesterday's game twice and I'm telling you, PG4s assists were of the former variety and not the latter. He had a great game, his shooting kept us in it...but he was not creating for others.

I agree. Team needs Branch. I think you will see a lot of three guard lineups. Of course the way we rebound.....

Quote from: MCNPA on November 19, 2012, 09:00:32 AM

Can't say Phil Greene doesn't dish the rock with 7 assists and 1 turnover yesterday.  Not only did he scor, but dished the ball too.  Our problem is IMO mostly defensively.  We actually score well for most of the game except for a few dead periods where it seems both our offense and defense wilt.  Don't know if it is fatigue, mental toughness or what at this point, but it is something that needs I be remedied.  Lavin's first season we weren't this talented, but over course of the season we learned how to control tempo, and we got into better shape than the teams we played. 

I remember looking pretty atrocious with our zones early that season as well but improving a ton later.  I think we might need to work some other zones though than just the 1-2-2 because we were getting overloaded a bit down low at times and it led to our ability to rebound.  Much of it though, is still that the players must play all-out on defense all game long.  Can't shuffle our feet and need to take defense more personally. 

We are losing IMO because we cant defend and rebound, not because of a few offensive droughts that are usually after defensive lapses.  We will certainly get better and thus far still only have 2 close losses to 2 top 25 teams.  People predicted us as 10th+ in the Big East and I think we'll be a lot better as the season rolls on.  Now we need to add Sanchez!

There are assists that you get because youre the last guy to touch the ball before the guy who scores, and there are real assists where you create for the scorer. I watched yesterday's game twice and I'm telling you, PG4s assists were of the former variety and not the latter. He had a great game, his shooting kept us in it...but he was not creating for others.

Agree totally about running a different zone. The irony of the 1-2-2 is that you run it to have three guys on the perimeter, ostenibly to shut down the three. Teams are attacking us inside out, and our guys are so quick and agressive that when the ball gets in the lane, we collapse so quickly that the weakside or baseline is often wiiiiiide open. Especially now that we have Obekpa, we could run the Syracuse 2-3 to perfection. Shot blocker to clog the lane, enough quickness from our forwards to still defend the perimeter, three guys on the baseline instead of two for rebounding. No brainer if you ask me.

I don't like the 2-3 as a full-time solution, buti think it would have been better yesterday with their bigs.  Agree with that totally.  Would have forced their bigs out, utilized Obekpa more and caused them difficulty penetrating.  Now, the big problem really is that it was our 4th game this week.  We haven't had enough time this season practicing more than man-d and this matchup zone which we'll use a lot, nonetheless prepare to use a 2-3 as well.  We had one day to prepare which isn't enough to install another zone package.  I think we'll add more to our repertoire, but we had to run with what we brought which was our 1-2-2 and some man-defense.  It's a double-edged sword.  We got tons of valuable experience this week, but were not able to optimally prepare for some very good opponents. 

People have to temper the reaction to these games realizing the turnover from one game to the next and large learning curve for a group of young kids.  2-3 zone would have been great yesterday.  Unfortunately, no time to add that yet this season.  We now have a stretch of games where we can tinker with both technique and our sets both offensive and defensive.  Should help us improve.

Marcus, I respect your passion, but objectivity is not one of your strengths. I am not crazed by the two losses and realize this is a young team that needs tinkering. That said, I also feel the staff did not have a good tourney, failing to make defensive adjustments and develop structured game plans. Yes, Branch and hopefully Sanchez will add a lot to the mix, but I expect the staff to improve on the strategic end of things as well. All in all, I appreciate the great recruiting job and the caliber of player we are attracting, but feel compelled to express some constructive criticism. Never hurts!

Marcus, I respect your passion, but objectivity is not one of your strengths. I am not crazed by the two losses and realize this is a young team that needs tinkering. That said, I also feel the staff did not have a good tourney, failing to make defensive adjustments and develop structured game plans. Yes, Branch and hopefully Sanchez will add a lot to the mix, but I expect the staff to improve on the strategic end of things as well. All in all, I appreciate the great recruiting job and the caliber of player we are attracting, but feel compelled to express some constructive criticism. Never


Other than respecting Lloyd Christmas this was spot on!

the problem is that we don't have a half-court offense.  it's mind boggling that we start our offense just past mid-court.  we're 30+ feet away from the basket!  and on top of that we can't get our best perimeter shooter open with picks and screens. heslip was working around screens to get open, and DLo was trying to do it all his own!

Marcus, I respect your passion, but objectivity is not one of your strengths. I am not crazed by the two losses and realize this is a young team that needs tinkering. That said, I also feel the staff did not have a good tourney, failing to make defensive adjustments and develop structured game plans. Yes, Branch and hopefully Sanchez will add a lot to the mix, but I expect the staff to improve on the strategic end of things as well. All in all, I appreciate the great recruiting job and the caliber of player we are attracting, but feel compelled to express some constructive criticism. Never


Other than respecting Lloyd Christmas this was spot on!

Marcus, can't wear this outfit in OR! Kidding!

http://www.80stees.com/products/Lloyd-Christmas-Dumb-and-Dumber-Costume.asp?utm_source=goog-merch&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=DUMB017&gclid=CNzq5MWq27MCFUQw4Aod0l4ADw

The problem is that we played a team that is ranked #16 and has gone to the elite 8 two out of the last three seasons and both times lost to the eventual national champion.

Paralysis by overanalysis!

I'm being perfectly objective when I say it is nearly impossible to gameplay for 4 teams in 6 days.  Some of you guys I'm sure never played sports because if you have you'd know it.  No way to add zones between back to back games.  Not easy to gameplan a team like Baylor in one day with two fantastic guards and several excellent bigs.  Armchair quarterbacking is easy.  The real problem is execution by a young team.  The game coaching aspect is extremely overrated IMO.

Some of you guys like to call yourself "objective" which translates to "unrealistic".  Sorry Paultzman, but I think I'm being quite objective here.  We just played a few excellent teams and have had narrow losses.  We certainly have things to work on but both teams have tons more experience than we do and it showed on the court over the stretch of games.

Some of you guys I'm sure never played sports because if you have you'd know it.

Bollocks!  I play fantasy football!

I think I'm being quite objective here

You're about as objective as Phil Rizzuto calling a Yankee World Series Game on Mickey Mantle's birthday.

Quote from: MCNPA on November 19, 2012, 02:57:01 PM

I think I'm being quite objective here

You're about as objective as Phil Rizzuto calling a Yankee World Series Game on Mickey Mantle's birthday.

What defense do you think should have been installed between the Murray State and Baylor game? Or do you think Lavin should have brought Gift into the game to make up for being outrebounded by 20+? 

Truth is that the ones who are least objective are the ones that think some miraculous coaching fix is the answer to why we lost those games.  Anybody who has ever played a competitive sport realizes that it is the players execution that first and foremost wins games. 

Quote from: Foad on November 19, 2012, 03:05:00 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 19, 2012, 02:57:01 PM

I think I'm being quite objective here

You're about as objective as Phil Rizzuto calling a Yankee World Series Game on Mickey Mantle's birthday.

What defense do you think should have been installed between the Murray State and Baylor game? Or do you think Lavin should have brought Gift into the game to make up for being outrebounded by 20+? 

Truth is that the ones who are least objective are the ones that think some miraculous coaching fix is the answer to why we lost those games.  Anybody who has ever played a competitive sport realizes that it is the players execution that first and foremost wins games. 

Marcus, you are making yourself out to be Jim Thorpe or Jim Brown. Playing lacrosse competitively does make you an expert at anything. However,  your spin prowess may entitle you to the handle, "Maytag Man"! just breaking chops!