Dave Telep: Conference affiliation near meaningless in recruiting

Dave Telep, recruiting analyst, has a good piece up on ESPN Insider.   For those who can't view it here are the highlights.


"We aren’t raising a generation of ACC or Big East fans. We’re raising a generation of players who will grow up with less conference affiliation and more loyalty to specific programs.
My take is that the programs that individually promote themselves will be better served. We can’t expect colleges to hitch their wagon to a rent-a-conference and try to sell a recruit on allegiance to the league. "

"To recruit in today’s culture, you’d better have a detailed plan that is easily differentiated from your peers. Don’t expect any help from your conference."


1. Construct your own brand. Conference allegiance will not win a recruiting battle for the best point guard. It’s been a long time since I’ve heard a recruit say, “I think I’m the best point guard and I want to play in [insert 1990s best league here].” Recruiting, now more than ever, is based on individuality and differentiation. The Syracuse 2-3 zone, Michigan State’s rebounding, VCU’s Havoc defense, Kentucky’s pipeline to the pros. If you can’t be easily identified, you’re dead in the water.

2. Sell player development. Today, high school kids have more trainers than coaches.  Winning games gets you in the door. Showing kids you will make them better gets you out of the living room with a commitment.

3. The NBA. Saying you produce players isn’t enough. Remember, this generation deals on the Internet in 140 characters or less. You’d better be able to show them how many draft picks you’ve had.

4. Take advantage of your facilities. Ten years ago, college basketball engaged in an arms race. We built colossal practice facilities, weight rooms and player lounges. Guess what? Now everybody has those. Not everyone  sells it.   If you have it and you’re not flaunting it, why’d you build it anyway? Take Oklahoma State. I can’t tell you how many kids I’ve spoken with who have watched the YouTube clip of OSU’s players showing off their version of the Taj Mahal.

5. Strengthen your program from the inside out. These kids talk. They text. They tweet. They might not communicate verbally, but they do communicate with each other. Whether it’s recruits, coaches or parents of recruits talking, information is constantly exchanged and easy to obtain.

League Loyalty Not a Recruiting Factor - http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/dave-telep/post/_/id/2795/conference-alignment-means-little-in-hoops-recruiting

Dave Telep, recruiting analyst, has a good piece up on ESPN Insider.   For those who can't view it here are the highlights.

"We aren’t raising a generation of ACC or Big East fans. We’re raising a generation of players who will grow up with less conference affiliation and more loyalty to specific programs.

Are there players who attended Saint John's because of their love of the BE? I can't think of any. But there was a time not so much any more where kids wanted to go to SJ because of grandeur to which their conference rivalries gave rise. There was positive attention fostered on Saint John's because of its BE affiliation which increased its stature beyond its deserve. That is gone. All that history is gone. Mullin versus Ewing. Gone. Berry versus Pearl. Gone. Beoheim, Calhoun, Dixon, Huggins, Pitino. Gone. Hello Tulane. Hello Montana State. Hello East Carolina. Allow me to introduce myself, We Are SJU, by which I mean: we are Saint Joseph's. As charming as Lavin is, this isn't going to help his recruiting. Even if there are only a couple of jobs that he'd leave for - which I don't believe, he has every opportunity in the world - it's not hard to beleive that he'll be listening to offers. Nothing good is come of this. 
 

Are there players who attended Saint John's because of their love of the BE? I can't think of any. But there was a time not so much any more where kids wanted to go to SJ because of grandeur to which their conference rivalries gave rise. There was positive attention fostered on Saint John's because of its BE affiliation which increased its stature beyond its deserve. That is gone. All that history is gone. Mullin versus Ewing. Gone. Berry versus Pearl. Gone. Beoheim, Calhoun, Dixon, Huggins, Pitino. Gone. Hello Tulane. Hello Montana State. Hello East Carolina. Allow me to introduce myself, We Are SJU, by which I mean: we are Saint Joseph's. As charming as Lavin is, this isn't going to help his recruiting. Even if there are only a couple of jobs that he'd leave for - which I don't believe, he has every opportunity in the world - it's not hard to beleive that he'll be listening to offers. Nothing good is come of this. 

I agree with the above in its entirety, but allow me to play Devils advocate for a moment. If you keep the Garden and coach stays wouldn't there be prestige in being the "BIG DOG" in a watered down BE? Sort of like Gonzaga East? This strategy could work as long as you play an extremely aggressive  out of conf schedule, no?

I agree with the above in its entirety, but allow me to play Devils advocate for a moment. If you keep the Garden and coach stays wouldn't there be prestige in being the "BIG DOG" in a watered down BE? Sort of like Gonzaga East? This strategy could work as long as you play an extremely aggressive  out of conf schedule, no?

Cal wit Memphis.

There are 2 keys to St Johns continued success in my opinion

1) Regardless of what conference we are in we need to make enough money to continue to pay coach Lavin a competitive salary.   He won't leave unless someone else is offering a lot more.   And at that point I wouldn't blame him. 

2) Lavin needs to continue to put guys in the NBA.


To me, it's really that simple.   Good recruits will want to come here if we're producing pros.   And Lavin isn't going anywhere if the money is equal to what he'd get elsewhere. 

I agree with the above in its entirety, but allow me to play Devils advocate for a moment. If you keep the Garden and coach stays wouldn't there be prestige in being the "BIG DOG" in a watered down BE? Sort of like Gonzaga East? This strategy could work as long as you play an extremely aggressive  out of conf schedule, no?

You'd have to define "work." SJ could again have the level of success it had before the BE. Be pretty good. Win 20 games. Once in a while be really good - but never seriously contend for a NC. That's the best I see, an above average fish in a shrinking pond. It's certainly better than the losing and sucking we've done recently. That level of sucess was good enough for Louie and all he ever aspired to. The red and white crowd were happy enough. Is that "working"? As a fan that's not what I was hoping for. I did that already. It sucked. Lavin's not from here and I don't know what he aspires to. I doubt it's Queens. On the other hand, this is a good group of players. In 2 years they'd be scary good. Even Dom Pointer will be good in 2 years, that's how good they'll be. Lavin has a window before the stink of decay attaches to us and nothing to lose, because Lavin did his best but who could be expected to succeed under such conditions. If he loses he's excused. If he wins he's redeemed. It'll do till something better comes along.

What about a league like this?  I've seen this suggested on one board.  Would be some great bball played and should get decent TV exposure.  THere are a few football schools that can keep their teams in the MAAC or wherever.  Let's face it, team's like Temple, Umass and Memphis are in no way getting ACC invites.  If a school like Cincy does, just fill in St. Joe's or somebody else for them.  This would be excellent and marketable basketball conference.  I think the rivalries would grow as would recruiting and exposure for many of these teams.

East
PC
SHU
SJU
G'town
Nova
Richmond
UMASS
Temple

West
Marquette
Xavier
Dayton
Butler
St. Louis
Depaul
Memphis
Cincy

A big part of our brand is the garden. I could be wrong but I think we have to sell 10,000 seats just to break even on the game. I have been going to games for the past 15 years, besides Syracuse , uconn, g- town and maybe nd, we have not consistently done that. No garden no recruits
Players want a big time expirence- we have to do what ever we can to stay big time. Everyone here on this board is excited for the season, everyone on the board will go to what ever games they can. I have friends who will go to games ,i have friends who like (not love) st. Johns basketball. I gave up my season tickets because I was tired of paying for 2 seAts. Most NY sports fans don't care about us playing an SEC school tomorrow. Either I go to the game myself or I don't go.  On a tuesday night in January I may be able to talk someone in to going to a game against a top ten Pittsburgh.
 Besides us super fans, who is going to go to a stu basketball game against, Dayton, Xavier , or many of the teams from a basketball only conference. No fans = no money= no big time program.
We are NYC! We are the garden! That is big time. We have to sell that some how. Or it is over. In my mind we have to distance ourselves as far as possible from these lower schools. Notre dame football believes they are special- we are not nd football but we have to market ourselves as special.

A big part of our brand is the garden. I could be wrong but I think we have to sell 10,000 seats just to break even on the game. I have been going to games for the past 15 years, besides Syracuse , uconn, g- town and maybe nd, we have not consistently done that. No garden no recruits

We don't have to sell 10k to break even.  Thats why Norm lasted so long.  The $ wasn't hurting enough to warrant a quicker change.

What about a league like this?  I've seen this suggested on one board.  Would be some great bball played and should get decent TV exposure.  THere are a few football schools that can keep their teams in the MAAC or wherever.  Let's face it, team's like Temple, Umass and Memphis are in no way getting ACC invites.  If a school like Cincy does, just fill in St. Joe's or somebody else for them.  This would be excellent and marketable basketball conference.  I think the rivalries would grow as would recruiting and exposure for many of these teams.

East
PC
SHU
SJU
G'town
Nova
Richmond
UMASS
Temple

West
Marquette
Xavier
Dayton
Butler
St. Louis
Depaul
Memphis
Cincy

I like it.

What about a league like this?  I've seen this suggested on one board.  Would be some great bball played and should get decent TV exposure.  THere are a few football schools that can keep their teams in the MAAC or wherever.  Let's face it, team's like Temple, Umass and Memphis are in no way getting ACC invites.  If a school like Cincy does, just fill in St. Joe's or somebody else for them.  This would be excellent and marketable basketball conference.  I think the rivalries would grow as would recruiting and exposure for many of these teams.

East
PC
SHU
SJU
G'town
Nova
Richmond
UMASS
Temple

West
Marquette
Xavier
Dayton
Butler
St. Louis
Depaul
Memphis
Cincy

This is nearly the best case scenario all BB conference. Ditch fb, Memphis Temple Cincy, and add catholic schools. Saint Bonaventure. Siena. Niagara. Fordham. Iona after we ink Cluess.

I believe we play cinn. They are a good team, garden will be at least 1/3 empty. We also play seton hall. I will bring a football and sit center court at half time we can have a catch, don't worry we won't hit anyone( won't be many people there). We never play providence or depaul at the garden again no fans? Why would we want to associate ourselves with them?
Not trying to be a dxck, this situation sucks.

I was a fan of SJU before the BE and I'll be a fan after.  I'll be at the East Carolina and Tulane games at Alumni with a smile on my face.  We have just as much chance to be relevant or not relevant pre-shakeup or post.  We have a rock solid group of new recruits and a rock solid head coach.  Just as hurricane Sandy didn't ruin the metropolitan area.  Hurricane college football program shuffle won't ruin SJU basketball.

Stay strong...stay positive.  We will survive and prosper.

You'd have to define "work." SJ could again have the level of success it had before the BE. Be pretty good. Win 20 games. Once in a while be really good - but never seriously contend for a NC. That's the best I see, an above average fish in a shrinking pond. It's certainly better than the losing and sucking we've done recently. That level of sucess was good enough for Louie and all he ever aspired to. The red and white crowd were happy enough. Is that "working"? As a fan that's not what I was hoping for. I did that already. It sucked. Lavin's not from here and I don't know what he aspires to. I doubt it's Queens. On the other hand, this is a good group of players. In 2 years they'd be scary good. Even Dom Pointer will be good in 2 years, that's how good they'll be. Lavin has a window before the stink of decay attaches to us and nothing to lose, because Lavin did his best but who could be expected to succeed under such conditions. If he loses he's excused. If he wins he's redeemed. It'll do till something better comes along.


Our opinion about the history of SJU basketball under Louie is pretty similar. Neither of us suffer from any delusions of grandeur but I do look back at the Louie years a lot more fondly than you. A big reason is probably becuase I was a kid into my teenage years, so everything is usually thought of in a better light during those years. Some on this board do look at the program as if we are up there with UNC or Duke which is preposterous of course. We do not even have the history of UCONN or Cuse. With that being said if you told me Lavin was going to basically reproduce the Louie years here I would sign up for that in a minute!

I do not understand the problem with 20 wins every year and ALWAYS knowing that your team will be a part of selection Sunday? I also disagree with the concept that we never seriously had a chance at a NC. We were the 2nd best team in the country the year we lost in the Final Four. We just were a terrible matchup with Gtown. The Artest elite 8 team actually choked IMO against Ohio ST and def had a chance to win that year.  Prob a good thing they didn't as it would have been forfeited anyway. However if we had won Jarvis takes an NBA job, Keita thing never comes out and we never have to endure Norm.
The Sealy elite 8 team had a chance at the NC and we were cheated by the refs his soph year(Singleton tech game). If Mullin were a better clutch free throw shooter the Russell, Mullin, Goodwin teams would have made a nice run as well.

So the bottom line is 20 wins and NCAA tourney every year with a chance at a final four every 10 years is nothing to sneeze at IMO. I just don't think SJU would ever under any circumstance be what you aspire for them to be. But think about it, only Duke, UNC, UCLA, Kentucky, Kansas, Uconn, Cuse and maybe Louisville can claim to be what you want the SJU basketball team to be. That is only 8 programs in the whole country. And what fun would it be to root for a program like that anyway. Most of those schools fans are douches.

if you told me Lavin was going to basically reproduce the Louie years here I would sign up for that in a minute!

As I've probably mentioned before, Lou's accomplishments become more impressive to me as time passes. But while it was happening it ultimately was one disappointment after another. 

I do not understand the problem with 20 wins every year and ALWAYS knowing that your team will be a part of selection Sunday? I also disagree with the concept that we never seriously had a chance at a NC. We were the 2nd best team in the country the year we lost in the Final Four. We just were a terrible matchup with Gtown. The Artest elite 8 team actually choked IMO against Ohio ST and def had a chance to win that year.  Prob a good thing they didn't as it would have been forfeited anyway. However if we had won Jarvis takes an NBA job, Keita thing never comes out and we never have to endure Norm. The Sealy elite 8 team had a chance at the NC and we were cheated by the refs his soph year(Singleton tech game). If Mullin were a better clutch free throw shooter the Russell, Mullin, Goodwin teams would have made a nice run as well.

I don't see the point of rehashing missed free throws from 1982. In my lifetime we've had half a dozen teams that were good enough to contend for a NC. None came close to winning. A majority of those were 20 years ago and while SJ was in the BE.

Question: How many players of Artest's caliber do you think are going to see Rick Pitino hanging out with Jay Z and Beyonce at the ACC tournament in Brooklyn and decide they want to play for Kevin Cluess at Alumni Hall? We're going to be the fall back position. I know you love broad analogies: we're going to be the chubby girl who gets asked to the prom after all the hot girls have dates.

. I just don't think SJU would ever under any circumstance be what you aspire for them to be. But think about it, only Duke, UNC, UCLA, Kentucky, Kansas, Uconn, Cuse and maybe Louisville can claim to be what you want the SJU basketball team to be.

I'm under no illusions about what SJU was or what it could be in the long term. But Saint John's in the BE was going to be a national player for as long as Lavin stayed. Now, even if he stays, and I'm guessing he won't long term, they're best case scenario a good mid major. It's as you say a step up from sucking but its not what I expected would come from the great and powerful hiring. Instead of a home run Lavin ends up being what? A double? More like a long fly ball to the warning track.

Chubby girls need loving too!

If the doomsday scenerio does play out, I think the team stays relevant by constantly grabbing the hot up and coming coach who uses us as a stepping stone. I think part of the program's problem is it keeps trying to duplicate Louie. Being the NYC school playing at the Garden will always keep us in the conversation for players I believe....hope.

Hey Jay Z couldn't bring Lebron to the Nets. He is not a great recruiter.

Lavin bolting at this time does not make any sense, he has not proved really anything yet. There is a lot of potential with these recruits but can it come to fruition? If he does leave it would either be restoring the program to a much better level the. What Norm inherited or he goes back to broadcasting and never coaches again. In either case SJU you cannot afford to go cheap and look for a local coach or at the very least not give the. 6years

The sky is not falling

Wow I completly agree with foads post.