Fordham Game Discussion

Felix has one wow moment a game.  Last night he was so excited to be at MSG that he came out to start the game and realized he had not put his uniform top on.  Those openning night jitters at the Garden were seen in this "oops"

Unacceptable.

Wow!

Anyone know what happend or what was said?  I missed the game.

What was the SJU to Fordham fan ratio?

How was the crowd last night? How many people showed up to the game?

Lets put it this way...the crowd was so light that there was a lady with a huge stack of tickets standing in front of the escalator at the 100 level stopping anyone from going to the upper levels and swapping out their tickets for ones in the lower bowl. Maybe 5,000 total, 1/4 Fordham fans, ZERO energy in the place. We played freakin horrible ( more on that in a second), but its no coincidence that we started to pull away after Obekpa's jam and then JaKarr's breakaway. Gave the squad and the crowd some semblance of life and gave JaKarr some confidence.

I didnt notice the Lavin-DLo screaming match, but my biggest concern is not that his emotions are causing him to get into it with the coach. My biggest concern is that his emotions lead him to play dumb and take horrible shots, which is WHY he's getting into it with the coach. At one point last night he pulled up on a break where we had numbers and shot a three...wtf? We've all played ball with that guy who, if you D him up hard and he gets the ball anyway, its going up no matter what even if its a horrible shot, as if he's going to prove something to you. Thats DLo, the supposed leader of our team. Instead of using the attention he gets to free up others for easy hoops, he's forcing badly. Contrast that with Amir, who at some point last night was pissed and started playing pissed...but under control and productively.

As noted by others...love Phil, but man its unreal that still cant create for others. Some of that is instinctive, but its definitely a skill that can be taught, but either they're not teaching him or he's not getting it.

The positive..JaKarr is so impressive. He didnt shoot well last night but he didnt take bad shots... a few rattled in and out. Again, unlike DLo he lets it come to him in the flow of the game. He didnt get down after a tough start, knocked down a few jumpers in the second half and totally changed the game w the steal and dunk. I really like this kid. Cant wait to see him against big time competition.

Quote from: nudginator59 on December 09, 2012, 11:39:26 AM

How was the crowd last night? How many people showed up to the game?

Lets put it this way...the crowd was so light that there was a lady with a huge stack of tickets standing in front of the escalator at the 100 level stopping anyone from going to the upper levels and swapping out their tickets for ones in the lower bowl. Maybe 5,000 total, 1/4 Fordham fans, ZERO energy in the place. We played freakin horrible ( more on that in a second), but its no coincidence that we started to pull away after Obekpa's jam and then JaKarr's breakaway. Gave the squad and the crowd some semblance of life and gave JaKarr some confidence.

I didnt notice the Lavin-DLo screaming match, but my biggest concern is not that his emotions are causing him to get into it with the coach. My biggest concern is that his emotions lead him to play dumb and take horrible shots, which is WHY he's getting into it with the coach. At one point last night he pulled up on a break where we had numbers and shot a three...wtf? We've all played ball with that guy who, if you D him up hard and he gets the ball anyway, its going up no matter what even if its a horrible shot, as if he's going to prove something to you. Thats DLo, the supposed leader of our team. Instead of using the attention he gets to free up others for easy hoops, he's forcing badly. Contrast that with Amir, who at some point last night was pissed and started playing pissed...but under control and productively.

As noted by others...love Phil, but man its unreal that still cant create for others. Some of that is instinctive, but its definitely a skill that can be taught, but either they're not teaching him or he's not getting it.

The positive..JaKarr is so impressive. He didnt shoot well last night but he didnt take bad shots... a few rattled in and out. Again, unlike DLo he lets it come to him in the flow of the game. He didnt get down after a tough start, knocked down a few jumpers in the second half and totally changed the game w the steal and dunk. I really like this kid. Cant wait to see him against big time competition.

Official attendance was 10,005...

Quote from: tnice on December 09, 2012, 01:37:40 PM

Quote from: nudginator59 on December 09, 2012, 11:39:26 AM

How was the crowd last night? How many people showed up to the game?

Lets put it this way...the crowd was so light that there was a lady with a huge stack of tickets standing in front of the escalator at the 100 level stopping anyone from going to the upper levels and swapping out their tickets for ones in the lower bowl. Maybe 5,000 total, 1/4 Fordham fans, ZERO energy in the place. We played freakin horrible ( more on that in a second), but its no coincidence that we started to pull away after Obekpa's jam and then JaKarr's breakaway. Gave the squad and the crowd some semblance of life and gave JaKarr some confidence.

I didnt notice the Lavin-DLo screaming match, but my biggest concern is not that his emotions are causing him to get into it with the coach. My biggest concern is that his emotions lead him to play dumb and take horrible shots, which is WHY he's getting into it with the coach. At one point last night he pulled up on a break where we had numbers and shot a three...wtf? We've all played ball with that guy who, if you D him up hard and he gets the ball anyway, its going up no matter what even if its a horrible shot, as if he's going to prove something to you. Thats DLo, the supposed leader of our team. Instead of using the attention he gets to free up others for easy hoops, he's forcing badly. Contrast that with Amir, who at some point last night was pissed and started playing pissed...but under control and productively.

As noted by others...love Phil, but man its unreal that still cant create for others. Some of that is instinctive, but its definitely a skill that can be taught, but either they're not teaching him or he's not getting it.

The positive..JaKarr is so impressive. He didnt shoot well last night but he didnt take bad shots... a few rattled in and out. Again, unlike DLo he lets it come to him in the flow of the game. He didnt get down after a tough start, knocked down a few jumpers in the second half and totally changed the game w the steal and dunk. I really like this kid. Cant wait to see him against big time competition.

Official attendance was 10,005...

5,000 for the first game, 5,000 for the second game.

Quote from: MCNPA on December 09, 2012, 01:47:33 PM

Quote from: tnice on December 09, 2012, 01:37:40 PM

Quote from: nudginator59 on December 09, 2012, 11:39:26 AM

How was the crowd last night? How many people showed up to the game?

Lets put it this way...the crowd was so light that there was a lady with a huge stack of tickets standing in front of the escalator at the 100 level stopping anyone from going to the upper levels and swapping out their tickets for ones in the lower bowl. Maybe 5,000 total, 1/4 Fordham fans, ZERO energy in the place. We played freakin horrible ( more on that in a second), but its no coincidence that we started to pull away after Obekpa's jam and then JaKarr's breakaway. Gave the squad and the crowd some semblance of life and gave JaKarr some confidence.

I didnt notice the Lavin-DLo screaming match, but my biggest concern is not that his emotions are causing him to get into it with the coach. My biggest concern is that his emotions lead him to play dumb and take horrible shots, which is WHY he's getting into it with the coach. At one point last night he pulled up on a break where we had numbers and shot a three...wtf? We've all played ball with that guy who, if you D him up hard and he gets the ball anyway, its going up no matter what even if its a horrible shot, as if he's going to prove something to you. Thats DLo, the supposed leader of our team. Instead of using the attention he gets to free up others for easy hoops, he's forcing badly. Contrast that with Amir, who at some point last night was pissed and started playing pissed...but under control and productively.

As noted by others...love Phil, but man its unreal that still cant create for others. Some of that is instinctive, but its definitely a skill that can be taught, but either they're not teaching him or he's not getting it.

The positive..JaKarr is so impressive. He didnt shoot well last night but he didnt take bad shots... a few rattled in and out. Again, unlike DLo he lets it come to him in the flow of the game. He didnt get down after a tough start, knocked down a few jumpers in the second half and totally changed the game w the steal and dunk. I really like this kid. Cant wait to see him against big time competition.

Official attendance was 10,005...

5,000 for the first game, 5,000 for the second game.

There were no more than 2000 people there for the second game, and that includes STJ/Fordham fans who stuck around. 

Quote from: tnice on December 09, 2012, 02:25:58 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on December 09, 2012, 01:47:33 PM

Quote from: tnice on December 09, 2012, 01:37:40 PM

Quote from: nudginator59 on December 09, 2012, 11:39:26 AM

How was the crowd last night? How many people showed up to the game?

Lets put it this way...the crowd was so light that there was a lady with a huge stack of tickets standing in front of the escalator at the 100 level stopping anyone from going to the upper levels and swapping out their tickets for ones in the lower bowl. Maybe 5,000 total, 1/4 Fordham fans, ZERO energy in the place. We played freakin horrible ( more on that in a second), but its no coincidence that we started to pull away after Obekpa's jam and then JaKarr's breakaway. Gave the squad and the crowd some semblance of life and gave JaKarr some confidence.

I didnt notice the Lavin-DLo screaming match, but my biggest concern is not that his emotions are causing him to get into it with the coach. My biggest concern is that his emotions lead him to play dumb and take horrible shots, which is WHY he's getting into it with the coach. At one point last night he pulled up on a break where we had numbers and shot a three...wtf? We've all played ball with that guy who, if you D him up hard and he gets the ball anyway, its going up no matter what even if its a horrible shot, as if he's going to prove something to you. Thats DLo, the supposed leader of our team. Instead of using the attention he gets to free up others for easy hoops, he's forcing badly. Contrast that with Amir, who at some point last night was pissed and started playing pissed...but under control and productively.

As noted by others...love Phil, but man its unreal that still cant create for others. Some of that is instinctive, but its definitely a skill that can be taught, but either they're not teaching him or he's not getting it.

The positive..JaKarr is so impressive. He didnt shoot well last night but he didnt take bad shots... a few rattled in and out. Again, unlike DLo he lets it come to him in the flow of the game. He didnt get down after a tough start, knocked down a few jumpers in the second half and totally changed the game w the steal and dunk. I really like this kid. Cant wait to see him against big time competition.

Official attendance was 10,005...

5,000 for the first game, 5,000 for the second game.

There were no more than 2000 people there for the second game, and that includes STJ/Fordham fans who stuck around.

Not as pathetic at ucla Texas

I know he's a freshman, and I know its been 10 games. But I'm shocked at how bad Jones has looked these last few games. His blown dunk was crazy.

Honestly the blown dunk should be pointed at whoever took eternity to give him the ball.  It was a 3 on 1 with Dee on the wing setting up for a 3.  I think it was Greene I guess and he waited waited waited until he was well into the painted before passing it.  Horrible fast break execution.  Jones deserves blame for his lack of mixing it up down low but not for that missed dunk

Quote from: HowCouldUBeSoHarkless on December 08, 2012, 11:13:23 PM

I know he's a freshman, and I know its been 10 games. But I'm shocked at how bad Jones has looked these last few games. His blown dunk was crazy.

Honestly the blown dunk should be pointed at whoever took eternity to give him the ball.  It was a 3 on 1 with Dee on the wing setting up for a 3.  I think it was Greene I guess and he waited waited waited until he was well into the painted before passing it.  Horrible fast break execution.  Jones deserves blame for his lack of mixing it up down low but not for that missed dunk

Quote from: HowCouldUBeSoHarkless on December 08, 2012, 11:13:23 PM

I know he's a freshman, and I know its been 10 games. But I'm shocked at how bad Jones has looked these last few games. His blown dunk was crazy.

Honestly the blown dunk should be pointed at whoever took eternity to give him the ball.  It was a 3 on 1 with Dee on the wing setting up for a 3.  I think it was Greene I guess and he waited waited waited until he was well into the painted before passing it.  Horrible fast break execution.  Jones deserves blame for his lack of mixing it up down low but not for that missed dunk

Exactly. Our fast break at best is a work in progress.

Quote from: HowCouldUBeSoHarkless on December 08, 2012, 11:13:23 PM

I know he's a freshman, and I know its been 10 games. But I'm shocked at how bad Jones has looked these last few games. His blown dunk was crazy.

Honestly the blown dunk should be pointed at whoever took eternity to give him the ball.  It was a 3 on 1 with Dee on the wing setting up for a 3.  I think it was Greene I guess and he waited waited waited until he was well into the painted before passing it.  Horrible fast break execution.  Jones deserves blame for his lack of mixing it up down low but not for that missed dunk

My thoughts exactly

Perhaps my line of thinking is too 'new-age', but it's my belief that the mid-range jumper (especially the practically contested 18 footers our guys seem to settle for) is the least effective shot in the game. ESPECIALLY in the college game with the shortened 3 point line.

I just don't understand some of the shot selection of our guys. I understand we don't have the best three point shooters, but shooting two feet in with a guy on you isn't a much better shot and garners you less points, fails to spread the floor and allows the other team to pack in the paint better (seriously, Fordham was basically four or five men-deep in the paint). We need to spread the floor better and utilize our athleticism to DRIVE and get fouls and/or easy buckets.

Perhaps my line of thinking is too 'new-age', but it's my belief that the mid-range jumper (especially the practically contested 18 footers our guys seem to settle for) is the least effective shot in the game. ESPECIALLY in the college game with the shortened 3 point line.

I just don't understand some of the shot selection of our guys. I understand we don't have the best three point shooters, but shooting two feet in with a guy on you isn't a much better shot and garners you less points, fails to spread the floor and allows the other team to pack in the paint better (seriously, Fordham was basically four or five men-deep in the paint). We need to spread the floor better and utilize our athleticism to DRIVE and get fouls and/or easy buckets.

We don't shoot many 3's because we only have two guys that can hit them (Dee and Greene).

The mid range jumper is a lost art and I love that our guys know their limitations.  Karr knows he can't hit the 3.  Your odds go up as you move in so a step in and a half inside the line is fine by me.

As for your dribble penetration I agree and hopefully thats Branch.  Because right now we don't have creators like that.

Quote from: HowCouldUBeSoHarkless on December 08, 2012, 11:13:23 PM

I know he's a freshman, and I know its been 10 games. But I'm shocked at how bad Jones has looked these last few games. His blown dunk was crazy.

Honestly the blown dunk should be pointed at whoever took eternity to give him the ball.  It was a 3 on 1 with Dee on the wing setting up for a 3.  I think it was Greene I guess and he waited waited waited until he was well into the painted before passing it.  Horrible fast break execution.  Jones deserves blame for his lack of mixing it up down low but not for that missed dunk

Phil was 0 for 4 on fast break situations with the ball in his hands. He's horrible at the point he's a second string 2 guard at the power conference level. I've been saying this for a while.

Quote from: Moose on December 09, 2012, 02:43:38 PM

Quote from: HowCouldUBeSoHarkless on December 08, 2012, 11:13:23 PM

I know he's a freshman, and I know its been 10 games. But I'm shocked at how bad Jones has looked these last few games. His blown dunk was crazy.

Honestly the blown dunk should be pointed at whoever took eternity to give him the ball.  It was a 3 on 1 with Dee on the wing setting up for a 3.  I think it was Greene I guess and he waited waited waited until he was well into the painted before passing it.  Horrible fast break execution.  Jones deserves blame for his lack of mixing it up down low but not for that missed dunk

Quote from: Moose on December 09, 2012, 02:43:38 PM

Quote from: HowCouldUBeSoHarkless on December 08, 2012, 11:13:23 PM

I know he's a freshman, and I know its been 10 games. But I'm shocked at how bad Jones has looked these last few games. His blown dunk was crazy.

Honestly the blown dunk should be pointed at whoever took eternity to give him the ball.  It was a 3 on 1 with Dee on the wing setting up for a 3.  I think it was Greene I guess and he waited waited waited until he was well into the painted before passing it.  Horrible fast break execution.  Jones deserves blame for his lack of mixing it up down low but not for that missed dunk

Exactly. Our fast break at best is a work in progress.

I would say a work in progress with the ball in Phil's hands . D'lo was 4 for 6 with one of those being the pull up 3. Phil Greene is just not the answer.

Quote from: Moose on December 09, 2012, 02:43:38 PM

Quote from: HowCouldUBeSoHarkless on December 08, 2012, 11:13:23 PM

I know he's a freshman, and I know its been 10 games. But I'm shocked at how bad Jones has looked these last few games. His blown dunk was crazy.

Honestly the blown dunk should be pointed at whoever took eternity to give him the ball.  It was a 3 on 1 with Dee on the wing setting up for a 3.  I think it was Greene I guess and he waited waited waited until he was well into the painted before passing it.  Horrible fast break execution.  Jones deserves blame for his lack of mixing it up down low but not for that missed dunk

Phil was 0 for 4 on fast break situations with the ball in his hands. He's horrible at the point he's a second string 2 guard at the power conference level. I've been saying this for a while.

Its weird.  I agree to a point but then I look at the numbers from the game notes yesterday.  Phil is tied for tops in the BE with Siva in A to TO ratio.  And we only avg 8 TO's a game and take care of the ball.  But like in that play yesterday its not a TO but a missed opportunity for 2 pts.  I hope Branch can run a team in a more offensively creative way and let Phil come in from the wings for his teardrops

Quote from: Chilleb on December 09, 2012, 04:03:40 PM

Quote from: Moose on December 09, 2012, 02:43:38 PM

Quote from: HowCouldUBeSoHarkless on December 08, 2012, 11:13:23 PM

I know he's a freshman, and I know its been 10 games. But I'm shocked at how bad Jones has looked these last few games. His blown dunk was crazy.

Honestly the blown dunk should be pointed at whoever took eternity to give him the ball.  It was a 3 on 1 with Dee on the wing setting up for a 3.  I think it was Greene I guess and he waited waited waited until he was well into the painted before passing it.  Horrible fast break execution.  Jones deserves blame for his lack of mixing it up down low but not for that missed dunk

Phil was 0 for 4 on fast break situations with the ball in his hands. He's horrible at the point he's a second string 2 guard at the power conference level. I've been saying this for a while.

Its weird.  I agree to a point but then I look at the numbers from the game notes yesterday.  Phil is tied for tops in the BE with Siva in A to TO ratio.  And we only avg 8 TO's a game and take care of the ball.  But like in that play yesterday its not a TO but a missed opportunity for 2 pts.  I hope Branch can run a team in a more offensively creative way and let Phil come in from the wings for his teardrops

Phil swings from wing to wing , he is a east west player not a north south run and gun type of guy.

Quote from: 0404 on December 09, 2012, 03:56:14 PM

Perhaps my line of thinking is too 'new-age', but it's my belief that the mid-range jumper (especially the practically contested 18 footers our guys seem to settle for) is the least effective shot in the game. ESPECIALLY in the college game with the shortened 3 point line.

I just don't understand some of the shot selection of our guys. I understand we don't have the best three point shooters, but shooting two feet in with a guy on you isn't a much better shot and garners you less points, fails to spread the floor and allows the other team to pack in the paint better (seriously, Fordham was basically four or five men-deep in the paint). We need to spread the floor better and utilize our athleticism to DRIVE and get fouls and/or easy buckets.

We don't shoot many 3's because we only have two guys that can hit them (Dee and Greene).

The mid range jumper is a lost art and I love that our guys know their limitations.  Karr knows he can't hit the 3.  Your odds go up as you move in so a step in and a half inside the line is fine by me.

As for your dribble penetration I agree and hopefully thats Branch.  Because right now we don't have creators like that.

I think it's a lost art because more teams recognize that it's the least effective play in basketball. Alot of NBA franchises have been stressing this for years.

But my point isn't even about OPEN mid-range jumpers. I have no qualms with open jumpshots from anywhere. It's more about guys forcing them from DEEP inside the 3-point line even with people on them. So many times over these last three or four games I've seen Greene, Karr and occasionally the likes of Pointer/Obekpa force up contested long 2-point shots with plenty of time left on the shot clock. What is the point of this? It's virtually a wasted possession.

Quote from: Moose on December 09, 2012, 03:58:17 PM

Quote from: 0404 on December 09, 2012, 03:56:14 PM

Perhaps my line of thinking is too 'new-age', but it's my belief that the mid-range jumper (especially the practically contested 18 footers our guys seem to settle for) is the least effective shot in the game. ESPECIALLY in the college game with the shortened 3 point line.

I just don't understand some of the shot selection of our guys. I understand we don't have the best three point shooters, but shooting two feet in with a guy on you isn't a much better shot and garners you less points, fails to spread the floor and allows the other team to pack in the paint better (seriously, Fordham was basically four or five men-deep in the paint). We need to spread the floor better and utilize our athleticism to DRIVE and get fouls and/or easy buckets.

We don't shoot many 3's because we only have two guys that can hit them (Dee and Greene).

The mid range jumper is a lost art and I love that our guys know their limitations.  Karr knows he can't hit the 3.  Your odds go up as you move in so a step in and a half inside the line is fine by me.

As for your dribble penetration I agree and hopefully thats Branch.  Because right now we don't have creators like that.

I think it's a lost art because more teams recognize that it's the least effective play in basketball. Alot of NBA franchises have been stressing this for years.

But my point isn't even about OPEN mid-range jumpers. I have no qualms with open jumpshots from anywhere. It's more about guys forcing them from DEEP inside the 3-point line even with people on them. So many times over these last three or four games I've seen Greene, Karr and occasionally the likes of Pointer/Obekpa force up contested long 2-point shots with plenty of time left on the shot clock. What is the point of this? It's virtually a wasted possession.

Call me nuts then I'd rather take a 2 then a 3 especially if I know the makeup of my team.  Any surprise you don't see Amir and Dom hoisting 3's like last year.

What is contested exactly?  Hand up in your face.  They aren't contested enough if we are getting the shot off.  Last 3 games were our worst shooting performance to date.  Prior to that we were shooting very well from the field.  Its hardly a wasted possession.  In my mind a wasted possession is a shot seconds into the shot clock.

It's not as if Amir and Dom are lighting up the world from 15-18 feet instead of 20.

Not to mention that lower percent that they would shoot is offset by spreading the floor, opening up driving lanes on future possessions, that extra 1 point when the shot goes in, etc.

And yes, "taking a 2 instead of a 3" is a valid argument, but not 7 seconds into the shot clock over a defender from 17 feet. It's utter stupidity IMO and a wasted non-turnover possession.

I just watched a horrendous Fordham team absolutely pack the defensive paint against us and we had no counter to it but shoot contested mid-range jumpers all game. It was absolutely embarrassing to watch. I don't think one of our nine 3-point attempts was on a pass either---almost all of them were off the dribble IIRC.

I don't care if we don't have a true point guard or not, that's just poor planning and spacing. There's absolutely no reason our guys can't make open 3-pointers at a respectable clip (Like seemingly every other team we've played the last ~15 years I've been watching St. John's basketball) if they're shooting from 2-3 feet closer.


Edit: Let me just add in NO way am I saying to abandon the mid-range jumper. It's definitely a valuable asset if used correctly (like everything else)---but these guys falling in love with that shot off the dribble as they have been is a POOR idea. Space the floor, set up shots off screens or penetration and driving lanes. That's literally the formula for every good team in the nation. We couldn't get open shots or take it to the rim against FORDHAM.

It's not as if Amir and Dom are lighting up the world from 15-18 feet instead of 20.

Not to mention that lower percent that they would shoot is offset by spreading the floor, opening up driving lanes on future possessions, that extra 1 point when the shot goes in, etc.

And yes, "taking a 2 instead of a 3" is a valid argument, but not 7 seconds into the shot clock over a defender from 17 feet. It's utter stupidity IMO and a wasted non-turnover possession.

I just watched a horrendous Fordham team absolutely pack the defensive paint against us and we had no counter to it but shoot contested mid-range jumpers all game. It was absolutely embarrassing to watch. I don't think one of our nine 3-point attempts was on a pass either---almost all of them were off the dribble IIRC.

I don't care if we don't have a true point guard or not, that's just poor planning and spacing. There's absolutely no reason our guys can't make open 3-pointers at a respectable clip (Like seemingly every other team we've played the last ~15 years I've been watching St. John's basketball) if they're shooting from 2-3 feet closer.


Edit: Let me just add in NO way am I saying to abandon the mid-range jumper. It's definitely a valuable asset if used correctly (like everything else)---but these guys falling in love with that shot off the dribble as they have been is a POOR idea. Space the floor, set up shots off screens or penetration and driving lanes. That's literally the formula for every good team in the nation. We couldn't get open shots or take it to the rim against FORDHAM.

We spread the floor as it is and its a factor in why our rebounding is so pitiful.  We have 5 guys spaced out around the perimeter in varying way.  Stick a guy or two on the blocks. 

So you'd rather take an 'open' 3 from a guy with no real chance of hitting it 7 seconds into the clock as opposed to a 'contested as you call it' 2 from inside the arc where chances increase and you also have a chance of being fouled (oh yeah I know we can't hit FT's so no point in that)

If you were embarrassed last night I don't know what to tell you.  What words would you describe some games during Norm's 6 yrs.  Fordham kept that close for 2 reasons last night.  Rebounding and our bad FT shooting.  One basket and its on the spread and we were out rebounded by 20.  Slash that in half hit a couple FT's its 20 pt game. 

There is a reason our guys can't hit 3's.  THEY CANT.  Bottom line.  Nobody besides Dee, Phil and Marco should be shooting 3's.

Maybe after 9 games in 22 days we now have full week off to actually practice some things.