Patience

I am for patience I'm okay with your main point but Lavin has disappointed me this year...his in game coaching has been bad.  If next year doesn't produce results and we hear more of the same excuses...it's not good.

Georgetown does not have a senior on its team and they embarrassed St. John's today. I'm all for patience, but they are 1-3 in conference play and will be 1-4 after Tuesday. You usually want to see young players get better as the season progresses, but this team is playing horrible basketball right now.

Don't sit there and tell me that in a year this team is (a) going to learn to shoot (b) play something that resembles defense.

Patience, as long as things look to be getting better.  But after today's horrific performance, is tat the case?

I remember back when the Jarvis scandal hit ST.Johns and I and some friends treked to the Garden and watched walk-ons trounce UCLA!
It was a great day!
The bad point of my story the head coach at the time was none other than SL pre ESPN.
He did have one pro on his team (Trevor Ariza) but the squad had no real chemistry during that game. Coinkydink?
Definitely Maybe
 

Screw "patience", mine has run out. And spare us all the "theyre still young" bs.
This team should be MUCH better right now, and the reason they are not is because Lavin is not a good coach outside of recruiting prowess. That is not going to change at this point, its something you have the mind for or you dont. Dunlap had it from the time he was young and always will, Lavin is a natural recruiter and always will be.

For those of you saying wait till next year....... next year will be alot like this year if Lav doesnt hire an assistant with strategic skill.  If anyone thinks that this team with the exact same staff, just a year older is going to be very good, you will be disapointed, and Lavin will be finished.

They dont look any better then last year when we only had 6 players, 5 FR. It is hard to imagine not being better w more depth and exp.

Worst criticism I could possibly give, we look like we did under Norm.

I know nobody wants to hear it, but things need some perspective. I also know I will get raked over the coals for this . Don't really care.

Sick of hearing it or not, Lavin inherited a team full of seniors and had to replace an entire roster of basketball players.  Things haven't gone as smoothly as we would like on the recruiting front with regards to eligibility issues, but i am ok with taking the risks.

 So Lavin is in his third year at the helm and 2nd full season behind the bench.

 Another program in a similar situation ( not identical...similar..ok?) was Indiana when Crean took over. He had a depleted roster his first year, kinda like us last year.  Also lost his first huge recruit, Eric Gordon to the draft. These are the records of his teams  in his first 3 seasons.

 2008–09   Indiana   6–25         
 2009–10   Indiana   10–21         
 2010–11   Indiana   12–20

 Lets not be so quick to tear this thing down as it's being built. It takes time. Even in Indiana it took a full 3 seasons, and now in his 5th, he has a top 5 team. It can work. 

 So keep crying if it makes you feel better , but reality says, it takes longer than 2+ years to rebuild a program that was neglected for 10 years.

 Go St. Johns!

 

Sorry but I have to respond to this one.

Difference is Crean inherited what Norm did, not what Lavin did.  That would be a more appropriate comparison.  Crean had garbage on the team.  Lavin had a bunch of middling Sr's on the team.  Lavin went out then and pulled in a Top 3-5 class depending on rankings.  7 committed before we played a regular season game.  Maybe that wasn't such a good thing.  3 were ineligible. 

Further Crean's 1st class was not Top 25 ranked by Rivals.  It was 7 guys, all 2 or 3 star players by Rivals.

His 2nd year (first real year recruiting) they were ranked 11th

SF Christian Watford (41)
SG Maurice Creek (59)
SF Derek Elston (103)
PG Jordan Hulls (107)
C Bawa Muniru (111)
PF Bobby Capobianco

2009 his 3rd class was not ranked and featured just two 3 star players (one of which was Oladippo)

2011 his 4th class was ranked 27th.  Really had one big fish.

PF Cody Zeller (15)
SF Austin Etherington
SF Remy Abell

2012 ranked 5th

PG Kevin Ferrell (19)
SF Jeremy Hollowell (41)
PF Hanner Perea (43)
SG Ron Patterson (131)
C Peter Jurkin

I just can't compare Lavin to Crean.  If anything Lavin had a much better position to succeed than Crean.  No matter how you shake it, its not apples to apples either way.

Worst criticism I could possibly give, we look like we did under Norm.

They do.  Threads like these were commonplace among the big Normies of the time as well.  I'll show a little more patience, probably through next year.  If I keep hearing excuses, it's hot seat time.  Not after this year, after next season if there's not some actual progress on the court.

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2013, 03:03:31 PM

Worst criticism I could possibly give, we look like we did under Norm.

They do.  Threads like these were commonplace among the big Normies of the time as well.  I'll show a little more patience, probably through next year.  If I keep hearing excuses, it's hot seat time.  Not after this year, after next season if there's not some actual progress on the court.

No question he gets 4th year.  All coaches should get 4.  Thats when I gave up with Norm after his 4th.

I will definitely have patience until next year, and pray for Lawrence. If we had Mo on this team, I think we could be close to undefeated. We need another player, like Harrison who can create his own shot. Especially a big guy.

Quote from: boo3 on January 11, 2013, 09:28:45 PM

I know nobody wants to hear it, but things need some perspective. I also know I will get raked over the coals for this . Don't really care.

Sick of hearing it or not, Lavin inherited a team full of seniors and had to replace an entire roster of basketball players.  Things haven't gone as smoothly as we would like on the recruiting front with regards to eligibility issues, but i am ok with taking the risks.

 So Lavin is in his third year at the helm and 2nd full season behind the bench.

 Another program in a similar situation ( not identical...similar..ok?) was Indiana when Crean took over. He had a depleted roster his first year, kinda like us last year.  Also lost his first huge recruit, Eric Gordon to the draft. These are the records of his teams  in his first 3 seasons.

 2008–09   Indiana   6–25         
 2009–10   Indiana   10–21         
 2010–11   Indiana   12–20

 Lets not be so quick to tear this thing down as it's being built. It takes time. Even in Indiana it took a full 3 seasons, and now in his 5th, he has a top 5 team. It can work. 

 So keep crying if it makes you feel better , but reality says, it takes longer than 2+ years to rebuild a program that was neglected for 10 years.

 Go St. Johns!

 

Sorry but I have to respond to this one.

Difference is Crean inherited what Norm did, not what Lavin did.  That would be a more appropriate comparison.  Crean had garbage on the team.  Lavin had a bunch of middling Sr's on the team.  Lavin went out then and pulled in a Top 3-5 class depending on rankings.  7 committed before we played a regular season game.  Maybe that wasn't such a good thing.  3 were ineligible. 

Further Crean's 1st class was not Top 25 ranked by Rivals.  It was 7 guys, all 2 or 3 star players by Rivals.

His 2nd year (first real year recruiting) they were ranked 11th

SF Christian Watford (41)
SG Maurice Creek (59)
SF Derek Elston (103)
PG Jordan Hulls (107)
C Bawa Muniru (111)
PF Bobby Capobianco

2009 his 3rd class was not ranked and featured just two 3 star players (one of which was Oladippo)

2011 his 4th class was ranked 27th.  Really had one big fish.

PF Cody Zeller (15)
SF Austin Etherington
SF Remy Abell

2012 ranked 5th

PG Kevin Ferrell (19)
SF Jeremy Hollowell (41)
PF Hanner Perea (43)
SG Ron Patterson (131)
C Peter Jurkin

I just can't compare Lavin to Crean.  If anything Lavin had a much better position to succeed than Crean.  No matter how you shake it, its not apples to apples either way.

Sure they might not be exact comparisons but I don't think that's the point he was trying to make. Both coaches took over programs which have history and were in a period of rebuilding. Both coaches had to rebuild. I'm not sure why class rankings mean so much to you. If anything I think Lavin and Creans first year recruiting is comparable. Lavin still would've recruited at the same level had he not inherited such a good team (BTW, a team this entire board called "garbage" before Lavin was hired).

I think the point boo is making is that it takes some time to build a program into a winning one. Especially when you have to replace the whole roster. Indiana struggled Crean's first 3 years but look at them now.

Maybe it is starting to sound like the Norm years, but honestly it's only because we have a bunch of Debbie Downers ready to jump off a cliff. Patience, posts like Boo's wouldn't be necessary if we had some.

Quote from: Moose on January 12, 2013, 04:02:51 PM

Quote from: boo3 on January 11, 2013, 09:28:45 PM

I know nobody wants to hear it, but things need some perspective. I also know I will get raked over the coals for this . Don't really care.

Sick of hearing it or not, Lavin inherited a team full of seniors and had to replace an entire roster of basketball players.  Things haven't gone as smoothly as we would like on the recruiting front with regards to eligibility issues, but i am ok with taking the risks.

 So Lavin is in his third year at the helm and 2nd full season behind the bench.

 Another program in a similar situation ( not identical...similar..ok?) was Indiana when Crean took over. He had a depleted roster his first year, kinda like us last year.  Also lost his first huge recruit, Eric Gordon to the draft. These are the records of his teams  in his first 3 seasons.

 2008–09   Indiana   6–25         
 2009–10   Indiana   10–21         
 2010–11   Indiana   12–20

 Lets not be so quick to tear this thing down as it's being built. It takes time. Even in Indiana it took a full 3 seasons, and now in his 5th, he has a top 5 team. It can work. 

 So keep crying if it makes you feel better , but reality says, it takes longer than 2+ years to rebuild a program that was neglected for 10 years.

 Go St. Johns!

 

Sorry but I have to respond to this one.

Difference is Crean inherited what Norm did, not what Lavin did.  That would be a more appropriate comparison.  Crean had garbage on the team.  Lavin had a bunch of middling Sr's on the team.  Lavin went out then and pulled in a Top 3-5 class depending on rankings.  7 committed before we played a regular season game.  Maybe that wasn't such a good thing.  3 were ineligible. 

Further Crean's 1st class was not Top 25 ranked by Rivals.  It was 7 guys, all 2 or 3 star players by Rivals.

His 2nd year (first real year recruiting) they were ranked 11th

SF Christian Watford (41)
SG Maurice Creek (59)
SF Derek Elston (103)
PG Jordan Hulls (107)
C Bawa Muniru (111)
PF Bobby Capobianco

2009 his 3rd class was not ranked and featured just two 3 star players (one of which was Oladippo)

2011 his 4th class was ranked 27th.  Really had one big fish.

PF Cody Zeller (15)
SF Austin Etherington
SF Remy Abell

2012 ranked 5th

PG Kevin Ferrell (19)
SF Jeremy Hollowell (41)
PF Hanner Perea (43)
SG Ron Patterson (131)
C Peter Jurkin

I just can't compare Lavin to Crean.  If anything Lavin had a much better position to succeed than Crean.  No matter how you shake it, its not apples to apples either way.

Sure they might not be exact comparisons but I don't think that's the point he was trying to make. Both coaches took over programs which have history and were in a period of rebuilding. Both coaches had to rebuild. I'm not sure why class rankings mean so much to you. If anything I think Lavin and Creans first year recruiting is comparable. Lavin still would've recruited at the same level had he not inherited such a good team (BTW, a team this entire board called "garbage" before Lavin was hired).

I think the point boo is making is that it takes some time to build a program into a winning one. Especially when you have to replace the whole roster. Indiana struggled Crean's first 3 years but look at them now.

Maybe it is starting to sound like the Norm years, but honestly it's only because we have a bunch of Debbie Downers ready to jump off a cliff. Patience, posts like Boo's wouldn't be necessary if we had some.

Again Lavin inherited a team of players.  Crean had a team that was like our Hill team after the Pitt incident.  Plus IU was facing violations.  Lavin inherited a team of Sr's.  And got kids to commit to the program site unseen.  His first year he took those Sr's to the Dance.  Plus a class with highly ranked players coming in expectations are high.  I'm not hung up on rankings, but they are rankings and are a benchmark we can all work off of.  Having a highly ranked guy is great.  But too many falls into my new saying- 5 spots, 200 minutes, 1 ball.  You need to mix it up.  You need diamonds in the rough and specialists.  You shouldnt be getting Top 100 players that are one dimensional.  That's our problem.  Too many flawed Top 100 players who were ranked based on potential.

Back to Crean he went 6 to 10 to 12 to the Sweet 16.  We're going backwards.  And Crean prior to Zeller and this year was bringing in players their fans would never worry about leaving for the NBA.  Sadly we do because of their higher rankings.  Do I think anyone is ready no but too many times players leave unprepared.

I don't mean to be negative, and I knew this year was going to be rough, but it has been worse. I am not saying we won't or can't get better but for that to happen Lavin is going to have to outrecruit his lack of coaching ability. At UCLA he could do that, can he here? This is not a new criticism, Lavin came here with that rep, but to me he has even been worse than advertised. Believe it or not I always give professional coaches the benefit of the doubt, that they must know more than me. But someone would really have to sit me down and explain Lavin's sub patterns. He was putting guys in and yanking  them out with NO rhyme or reason. One particular substitution outside of yanking Felix in and out was especially bizarre. Down 24-8, he took out our only scorer. Then after a couple possesions, we were shooting a FT and he subbed Harrison back in for Obepka? While we were on D? Even if you wanted to do that wait for us to be on offense! Of course Gtown grabbed an offensive rebound against a small lineup and had an and one.
Now are we back to the dark days? I hope not, but again I think in order for us to become decent Lavin will have to make it a point(pun intended) to recruit an NBA level point guard.

Ive said this before and so have many other posters. We need an XO,game plan expert on the staff.

Moose -- how about Jay Wright and the Nova situation.  I believe his first year he inherited a mediocre team and they stayed mediocre.  Secured a top class with Frazier, Ray, Sumpter, Foye, etc.  Had two more mediocre seasons (NIT in each, I believe).  Then had a really good year when that crew were juniors, went to the dance as like a #5 or #6 seed, and came into the next year (when those guys were seniors) as a top team. 

Our situation is different because Lavs had a great year in the 2010-2011 with the seniors, and then all of the issues we had last year with the ineligible players, his personal health issues, etc.  Also not saying we are on track by any stretch to make a leap if everyone comes back.  But agree with you that by year #4 their needs to be substantial progress.  And the calls for an X's and O's guy are becoming more apparent, because as you appropriately said, we certainly have a talented roster when you look at rankings (although your point about needing to recruit guys who compliment each other is well taken).

Also I agree with everyone that today reminded me of a Norm game.  Teams -- even good ones -- have performances like that.  God knows we had our share in 2010-2011, even when we were very good.  But the lack of progress with certain guys and sloppy play is concerning at this point.

I can't imagine anyone who sat on a train, paid a ticket, bought a 10 dollar beer would be to patient now. Going to games should be fun. Yesterday was anything but. Lavin has a hard job, but he is paid very well. He needs to do better. The white kid from Georgetown seems like a good role player could not be stopped yesterday.
How does a team not dress any post defenders? How does a team have multiple wing players who have little to no basketball skill? Why play Marco at all?

I can't imagine anyone who sat on a train, paid a ticket, bought a 10 dollar beer would be to patient now. Going to games should be fun. Yesterday was anything but. Lavin has a hard job, but he is paid very well. He needs to do better. The white kid from Georgetown seems like a good role player could not be stopped yesterday.
How does a team not dress any post defenders? How does a team have multiple wing players who have little to no basketball skill? Why play Marco at all?

I'd like to tell the ass behind me who was heckling Lubick to STFU. That white kid ate Obekpa alive. And with basically the same move every time. Lavin has made a real mess here. Maybe some of the NBA assistants are actually just names, and they have no coaching ability? It really seems that way.

I can't imagine anyone who sat on a train, paid a ticket, bought a 10 dollar beer would be to patient now. Going to games should be fun. Yesterday was anything but. Lavin has a hard job, but he is paid very well. He needs to do better. The white kid from Georgetown seems like a good role player could not be stopped yesterday.
How does a team not dress any post defenders? How does a team have multiple wing players who have little to no basketball skill? Why play Marco at all?

$10.75 for an Amstel Light

I don't expect Lavin to become a great coach, or even a good one. I can live with a mediocre coach if he is a great recruiter. So far Lavin as been a good recruiter and sub par coach. If he can upgrade to great recruiter, then we will be fine. Also he needs a better plan than just recruit best availabe athlete. He has only one skill guy in Harrison. I also think Branch can play, but not the point guard you need for a Lavin coached squad.