Really Really down on Lavin

Here are a few coaches first 5 years at their current schools:

A.
1980–81        17–13    6–8    T–5th    NIT Quarterfinals
1981–82      10–17    4–10    T–6th    
1982–83        11–17    3–11    7th    
1983–84        24–10    7–7    T–3rd    NCAA Round of 32
1984–85       23–8    8–6    T–4th    NCAA Round of 32

B.
2006–2007        11–19    2–14    16th    
2007–2008        13–19    8–10    10th    CBI 1st Round
2008–2009       18–14    8–10    10th    
2009–2010       19–16    7–11    11th    NIT 2nd Round
2010–2011    26–9    11–7    6th    NCAA Round of 32

C.
2008–2009       6–25    1–17    11th    
2009–2010       10–21    4–14    T–9th    
2010–2011        12–20    3–15    11th    
2011–2012        27–9    11–7    5th    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2012–2013        25–5    13–4

D.
1986–87       9–19    3–13    T–8th    
1987–88       20–14    4–12    9th    NIT Champions
1988–89       18–13    6–10    T–7th    NIT Quarterfinals
1989–90       31–6    12–4    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight
1990–91        20–11    9–7    3rd

E.
2001–2002       19–13    7–9    5th    NIT Quarterfinals
2002–2003       15–16    8–8    T–3rd    NIT 1st Round
2003–2004        18–17    6–10    11th    NIT Quarterfinals
2004–2005       24–8    11–5    T–3rd    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–2006        28–5    14–2    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight

I could list more examples, but the takeaway I have from the above is that turnarounds, even for programs with good histories, take time.  Generally, years 4 and 5 are where you see the surge forward and year 3 is often a step back.

A. Coach K, Duke
B. Cronin, Cincy
C. Crean, Indiana
D. Calhoun, UConn
E. Wright, Nova

What about the other 600 coaches who started off poorly and never improved?

Quote from: CH15 on March 07, 2013, 01:00:45 PM

Here are a few coaches first 5 years at their current schools:

A.
1980–81        17–13    6–8    T–5th    NIT Quarterfinals
1981–82      10–17    4–10    T–6th    
1982–83        11–17    3–11    7th    
1983–84        24–10    7–7    T–3rd    NCAA Round of 32
1984–85       23–8    8–6    T–4th    NCAA Round of 32

B.
2006–2007        11–19    2–14    16th    
2007–2008        13–19    8–10    10th    CBI 1st Round
2008–2009       18–14    8–10    10th    
2009–2010       19–16    7–11    11th    NIT 2nd Round
2010–2011    26–9    11–7    6th    NCAA Round of 32

C.
2008–2009       6–25    1–17    11th    
2009–2010       10–21    4–14    T–9th    
2010–2011        12–20    3–15    11th    
2011–2012        27–9    11–7    5th    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2012–2013        25–5    13–4

D.
1986–87       9–19    3–13    T–8th    
1987–88       20–14    4–12    9th    NIT Champions
1988–89       18–13    6–10    T–7th    NIT Quarterfinals
1989–90       31–6    12–4    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight
1990–91        20–11    9–7    3rd

E.
2001–2002       19–13    7–9    5th    NIT Quarterfinals
2002–2003       15–16    8–8    T–3rd    NIT 1st Round
2003–2004        18–17    6–10    11th    NIT Quarterfinals
2004–2005       24–8    11–5    T–3rd    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–2006        28–5    14–2    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight

I could list more examples, but the takeaway I have from the above is that turnarounds, even for programs with good histories, take time.  Generally, years 4 and 5 are where you see the surge forward and year 3 is often a step back.

A. Coach K, Duke
B. Cronin, Cincy
C. Crean, Indiana
D. Calhoun, UConn
E. Wright, Nova

What about the other 600 coaches who started off poorly and never improved?

I think you may have missed the point.

Quote from: Poison on March 09, 2013, 11:55:14 AM

Quote from: CH15 on March 07, 2013, 01:00:45 PM

Here are a few coaches first 5 years at their current schools:

A.
1980–81        17–13    6–8    T–5th    NIT Quarterfinals
1981–82      10–17    4–10    T–6th    
1982–83        11–17    3–11    7th    
1983–84        24–10    7–7    T–3rd    NCAA Round of 32
1984–85       23–8    8–6    T–4th    NCAA Round of 32

B.
2006–2007        11–19    2–14    16th    
2007–2008        13–19    8–10    10th    CBI 1st Round
2008–2009       18–14    8–10    10th    
2009–2010       19–16    7–11    11th    NIT 2nd Round
2010–2011    26–9    11–7    6th    NCAA Round of 32

C.
2008–2009       6–25    1–17    11th    
2009–2010       10–21    4–14    T–9th    
2010–2011        12–20    3–15    11th    
2011–2012        27–9    11–7    5th    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2012–2013        25–5    13–4

D.
1986–87       9–19    3–13    T–8th    
1987–88       20–14    4–12    9th    NIT Champions
1988–89       18–13    6–10    T–7th    NIT Quarterfinals
1989–90       31–6    12–4    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight
1990–91        20–11    9–7    3rd

E.
2001–2002       19–13    7–9    5th    NIT Quarterfinals
2002–2003       15–16    8–8    T–3rd    NIT 1st Round
2003–2004        18–17    6–10    11th    NIT Quarterfinals
2004–2005       24–8    11–5    T–3rd    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–2006        28–5    14–2    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight

I could list more examples, but the takeaway I have from the above is that turnarounds, even for programs with good histories, take time.  Generally, years 4 and 5 are where you see the surge forward and year 3 is often a step back.

A. Coach K, Duke
B. Cronin, Cincy
C. Crean, Indiana
D. Calhoun, UConn
E. Wright, Nova

What about the other 600 coaches who started off poorly and never improved?

I think you may have missed the point.

Is the point that it's possible Lavin is going to end up like one of those 5 coaches?
Because if that isn't the point, you're correct, I've missed it.

Quote from: redstorm212 on March 09, 2013, 11:59:13 AM

Quote from: Poison on March 09, 2013, 11:55:14 AM

Quote from: CH15 on March 07, 2013, 01:00:45 PM

Here are a few coaches first 5 years at their current schools:

A.
1980–81        17–13    6–8    T–5th    NIT Quarterfinals
1981–82      10–17    4–10    T–6th    
1982–83        11–17    3–11    7th    
1983–84        24–10    7–7    T–3rd    NCAA Round of 32
1984–85       23–8    8–6    T–4th    NCAA Round of 32

B.
2006–2007        11–19    2–14    16th    
2007–2008        13–19    8–10    10th    CBI 1st Round
2008–2009       18–14    8–10    10th    
2009–2010       19–16    7–11    11th    NIT 2nd Round
2010–2011    26–9    11–7    6th    NCAA Round of 32

C.
2008–2009       6–25    1–17    11th    
2009–2010       10–21    4–14    T–9th    
2010–2011        12–20    3–15    11th    
2011–2012        27–9    11–7    5th    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2012–2013        25–5    13–4

D.
1986–87       9–19    3–13    T–8th    
1987–88       20–14    4–12    9th    NIT Champions
1988–89       18–13    6–10    T–7th    NIT Quarterfinals
1989–90       31–6    12–4    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight
1990–91        20–11    9–7    3rd

E.
2001–2002       19–13    7–9    5th    NIT Quarterfinals
2002–2003       15–16    8–8    T–3rd    NIT 1st Round
2003–2004        18–17    6–10    11th    NIT Quarterfinals
2004–2005       24–8    11–5    T–3rd    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–2006        28–5    14–2    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight

I could list more examples, but the takeaway I have from the above is that turnarounds, even for programs with good histories, take time.  Generally, years 4 and 5 are where you see the surge forward and year 3 is often a step back.

A. Coach K, Duke
B. Cronin, Cincy
C. Crean, Indiana
D. Calhoun, UConn
E. Wright, Nova

What about the other 600 coaches who started off poorly and never improved?

I think you may have missed the point.

Is the point that it's possible Lavin is going to end up like one of those 5 coaches?
Because if that isn't the point, you're correct, I've missed it.

I understood the point as many of the great coaches in the NCAA did not start off winning 20 games a year. It took them time.

This team was not projected to win 20+ and be in the tournament this year. They over achieved a tad and everyone got excited. That is my analysis. This team could be very good next year.

As you say Hark, they could be very good next year. Thing is putting the ball in the hoop a big part of the game. We be lookin like shooting something to be ashamed off. Coach Lavs gotta get that fixed.

This team was not projected to win 20+ and be in the tournament this year. They over achieved a tad and everyone got excited. That is my analysis. This team could be very good next year.

Disagree.   But the projection was with Olrando Sanchez playing.  No one projected NCAA purgatory for the entire season for the kid.

“@Kieran_Lynch: Lavin mentioned a trip to Europe for the team this summer. #stjbb”

“@QSTJHoops: Side note: St. John's is planning a trip to Europe over the summer, where they will play 6-8 games according to Lavin. #stjbb”

“@Kieran_Lynch: Lavin mentioned a trip to Europe for the team this summer. #stjbb”

“@QSTJHoops: Side note: St. John's is planning a trip to Europe over the summer, where they will play 6-8 games according to Lavin. #stjbb”

Will be the youngest team in Europe also?

“@Kieran_Lynch: Lavin mentioned a trip to Europe for the team this summer. #stjbb”

“@QSTJHoops: Side note: St. John's is planning a trip to Europe over the summer, where they will play 6-8 games according to Lavin. #stjbb”

Prediction- We will lose games in Europe and fans will revolt.

Quote from: paultzman on March 09, 2013, 05:16:10 PM

“@Kieran_Lynch: Lavin mentioned a trip to Europe for the team this summer. #stjbb”

“@QSTJHoops: Side note: St. John's is planning a trip to Europe over the summer, where they will play 6-8 games according to Lavin. #stjbb”

Prediction- We will lose games in Europe and fans will revolt.

But we recruit two of the best "slashers" in Europe.

Quote from: paultzman on March 09, 2013, 05:16:10 PM

“@Kieran_Lynch: Lavin mentioned a trip to Europe for the team this summer. #stjbb”

“@QSTJHoops: Side note: St. John's is planning a trip to Europe over the summer, where they will play 6-8 games according to Lavin. #stjbb”

Prediction- We will lose games in Europe and fans will revolt.

And will be jealous of the Euros knocking down 3s.

Quote from: Moose on March 09, 2013, 05:24:51 PM

Quote from: paultzman on March 09, 2013, 05:16:10 PM

“@Kieran_Lynch: Lavin mentioned a trip to Europe for the team this summer. #stjbb”

“@QSTJHoops: Side note: St. John's is planning a trip to Europe over the summer, where they will play 6-8 games according to Lavin. #stjbb”

Prediction- We will lose games in Europe and fans will revolt.

And will be jealous of the Euros knocking down 3s.

Maybe we can smuggle one back

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on March 09, 2013, 05:27:47 PM

Quote from: Moose on March 09, 2013, 05:24:51 PM

Quote from: paultzman on March 09, 2013, 05:16:10 PM

“@Kieran_Lynch: Lavin mentioned a trip to Europe for the team this summer. #stjbb”

“@QSTJHoops: Side note: St. John's is planning a trip to Europe over the summer, where they will play 6-8 games according to Lavin. #stjbb”

Prediction- We will lose games in Europe and fans will revolt.

And will be jealous of the Euros knocking down 3s.

Maybe we can smuggle one back

With no eligibility issues.

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on March 05, 2013, 10:10:12 PM

Quote from: SJUhoopNUT on March 05, 2013, 09:40:15 PM

In all aspects of the program right now, Lavin is not performing well. From a discipline standpoint and a coaching standpoint, this team has a lot of issues. Bad enough our play on the court was embarassing, but throw in a fight, and it's just total chaos.

I didn't expect NCAA bid this year, figured an NIT bid would be ok as long as the team showed improvement and finished strong. The finish to this season has been a disaster. Lavin's recruiting flaws are showing and his coaching flaws are also glaring. Can he recruit? Yes. But it's inexcusable to not have more perimeter scoring. His in game adjustments? As Digger said tonight, non-existent. You can blame young, you can blame whatever you want, but the team on the floor tonight was a reflection of the coach. And the incident is a reflection of the type of program that is developing.

Lavin has to get it together. The cracks are beginning to show.

What I don't understand us why much of what you say was not evident some time ago. Some of us predicted some time ago that this team would only win 8 or at best 9 games in the BE and that was when we had 6 wins against a most favorable schedule. All year long all we heard from dillusional fans was the term "young team" which by the amount of minutes played was BOGUS.

It is obvious that Lavin lacks a qualified 2 nd assisstant, and most recently a bonified recruiter.  Ths year Lavin has whiffed on every recruit he went after.  Tonite, everyone is upset about the ND blow out, why? With the recent distractions, continued abismal play, poor shooting, an ineffective offense what did you expect, a win? 

I feel sorry for coach. He as had a couple of tough years. Battled cancer, lost his dad and had a player on the team that could give you ulcers.  I think that the current state of affairs can be fixed but it's going to take work on the part of the coaching staff and the players themselves. Lavin needs to reconfigure his staff and import an x and o guy and the kids have got to work hard on their shooting over the summer. My only concern is the recent recruiting failures.  Dont know what to do to help that.

Anyway, I am not ready to throw oath under the bus.  Sure things look bad at this time but things can change, it's just gonna take a lot of ard work.

Linda, do you think we would have won if Lavin played Marco the entire second half?

No I don't.  Marco was nt shooting that well at all.

As you say Hark, they could be very good next year. Thing is putting the ball in the hoop a big part of the game. We be lookin like shooting something to be ashamed off. Coach Lavs gotta get that fixed.

Shooting can be fixed. We'll see who worked hard in the offseason

Harold, Kumar and Lavin's European Vacation!    Road trip for Dlo? 

Quote from: Poison on March 09, 2013, 12:15:06 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on March 09, 2013, 11:59:13 AM

Quote from: Poison on March 09, 2013, 11:55:14 AM

Quote from: CH15 on March 07, 2013, 01:00:45 PM

Here are a few coaches first 5 years at their current schools:

A.
1980–81        17–13    6–8    T–5th    NIT Quarterfinals
1981–82      10–17    4–10    T–6th    
1982–83        11–17    3–11    7th    
1983–84        24–10    7–7    T–3rd    NCAA Round of 32
1984–85       23–8    8–6    T–4th    NCAA Round of 32

B.
2006–2007        11–19    2–14    16th    
2007–2008        13–19    8–10    10th    CBI 1st Round
2008–2009       18–14    8–10    10th    
2009–2010       19–16    7–11    11th    NIT 2nd Round
2010–2011    26–9    11–7    6th    NCAA Round of 32

C.
2008–2009       6–25    1–17    11th    
2009–2010       10–21    4–14    T–9th    
2010–2011        12–20    3–15    11th    
2011–2012        27–9    11–7    5th    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2012–2013        25–5    13–4

D.
1986–87       9–19    3–13    T–8th    
1987–88       20–14    4–12    9th    NIT Champions
1988–89       18–13    6–10    T–7th    NIT Quarterfinals
1989–90       31–6    12–4    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight
1990–91        20–11    9–7    3rd

E.
2001–2002       19–13    7–9    5th    NIT Quarterfinals
2002–2003       15–16    8–8    T–3rd    NIT 1st Round
2003–2004        18–17    6–10    11th    NIT Quarterfinals
2004–2005       24–8    11–5    T–3rd    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–2006        28–5    14–2    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight

I could list more examples, but the takeaway I have from the above is that turnarounds, even for programs with good histories, take time.  Generally, years 4 and 5 are where you see the surge forward and year 3 is often a step back.

A. Coach K, Duke
B. Cronin, Cincy
C. Crean, Indiana
D. Calhoun, UConn
E. Wright, Nova

What about the other 600 coaches who started off poorly and never improved?

I think you may have missed the point.

Is the point that it's possible Lavin is going to end up like one of those 5 coaches?
Because if that isn't the point, you're correct, I've missed it.

I understood the point as many of the great coaches in the NCAA did not start off winning 20 games a year. It took them time.

I agree that it took these 5 guys time, but that isn't a lot of coaches. It's 5 coaches. It's a very small percentage of guys who are in that class.

Quote from: Poison on March 09, 2013, 12:15:06 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on March 09, 2013, 11:59:13 AM

Quote from: Poison on March 09, 2013, 11:55:14 AM

Quote from: CH15 on March 07, 2013, 01:00:45 PM

Here are a few coaches first 5 years at their current schools:

A.
1980–81        17–13    6–8    T–5th    NIT Quarterfinals
1981–82      10–17    4–10    T–6th    
1982–83        11–17    3–11    7th    
1983–84        24–10    7–7    T–3rd    NCAA Round of 32
1984–85       23–8    8–6    T–4th    NCAA Round of 32

B.
2006–2007        11–19    2–14    16th    
2007–2008        13–19    8–10    10th    CBI 1st Round
2008–2009       18–14    8–10    10th    
2009–2010       19–16    7–11    11th    NIT 2nd Round
2010–2011    26–9    11–7    6th    NCAA Round of 32

C.
2008–2009       6–25    1–17    11th    
2009–2010       10–21    4–14    T–9th    
2010–2011        12–20    3–15    11th    
2011–2012        27–9    11–7    5th    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2012–2013        25–5    13–4

D.
1986–87       9–19    3–13    T–8th    
1987–88       20–14    4–12    9th    NIT Champions
1988–89       18–13    6–10    T–7th    NIT Quarterfinals
1989–90       31–6    12–4    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight
1990–91        20–11    9–7    3rd

E.
2001–2002       19–13    7–9    5th    NIT Quarterfinals
2002–2003       15–16    8–8    T–3rd    NIT 1st Round
2003–2004        18–17    6–10    11th    NIT Quarterfinals
2004–2005       24–8    11–5    T–3rd    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–2006        28–5    14–2    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight

I could list more examples, but the takeaway I have from the above is that turnarounds, even for programs with good histories, take time.  Generally, years 4 and 5 are where you see the surge forward and year 3 is often a step back.

A. Coach K, Duke
B. Cronin, Cincy
C. Crean, Indiana
D. Calhoun, UConn
E. Wright, Nova

What about the other 600 coaches who started off poorly and never improved?

I think you may have missed the point.

Is the point that it's possible Lavin is going to end up like one of those 5 coaches?
Because if that isn't the point, you're correct, I've missed it.

I understood the point as many of the great coaches in the NCAA did not start off winning 20 games a year. It took them time.

UCONN barely had uniforms and balls when Calhoun took over.   
But, regardless, 3 of those 5 were at least in the sweet 16 in their 4th season.   So if we miss the tournament again next season, then is it ok to criticize coach?   If not, how long do we need to wait 212?

Quote from: paultzman on March 09, 2013, 05:16:10 PM

“@Kieran_Lynch: Lavin mentioned a trip to Europe for the team this summer. #stjbb”

“@QSTJHoops: Side note: St. John's is planning a trip to Europe over the summer, where they will play 6-8 games according to Lavin. #stjbb”

Will be the youngest team in Europe also?

I'm ashamed to say this post just made me giggle.