Talked to D'angelo at the game yesterday

Choz bringing it today on all threads.
I like it!

I'd add that the nba pick n roll game is extra trouble for us because none of our guys besides D'lo have the confidence to shoot over the top if the defense switches or lags.   And if they don't have to play you tight... it makes it that much harder to turn the corner.   

I never do this but
Plus 1

I can tell

Its +1

I dont harp on things like playin a walkon a few minutes in a big game when he was replacing scholarship players who was playin like dogs.

There are a few major things  that need correctin in my humble opinion that are larger than any in-game decision. Here is one:

STJ is playin a pro-set pick and roll offense that the team is not built to execute even wit continued maturation in seasons to come.

The false-motion is not really what they run. They run a high ball screen, standard NBA pick and roll set concentratin on two players: Jamal or Phil or D'Lo and almost always Karr. The rest of the players clear out wit the third option the corner J. 

Jamal in limited time is the only one who has shown an ability to turn the corner to the basket when he is healthy. D'Lo is too slow and rarely goes left. Phil has the jets but not the confidence to take it. If the guard retains the ball, he is often met in the lane by one or more defenders resultin in a difficult, often off-balance jumpshot that D'Lo can hit from time to time and that Phil can if he remembers he has a floater.

When the guard gives up the ball, it is often to Karr. Problem is Karr doesnt roll.
Never.
Ever.
Look at the tape.

He always stays in position cause he unfortunately has fallen in luv wit his 15-18 foot J. While his J is effective at times and should be a weapon in his arsenal, Karr has relied on it much too often this season.

Point is, this simply does not work with this team.

The halfcourt offense has been abominable and not just because we're dealin with young'uns (and we are. and yes, its a big, big part of the lack of execution). The NBA-style offense simply doesn't work with this group of players. It barely works with the most talented of NCAA teams (see UK last year vs this year). 

Up next: How the complete lack of a low-post scorer (and not shooters) destroys any chance for a decent half-court offense.

Your analysis makes sense, especially the total disregard for low post presence. It seems we should expect an experienced staff to recognize and address these deficits. Do you have confidence they will?

I dont harp on things like playin a walkon a few minutes in a big game when he was replacing scholarship players who was playin like dogs.

There are a few major things  that need correctin in my humble opinion that are larger than any in-game decision. Here is one:

STJ is playin a pro-set pick and roll offense that the team is not built to execute even wit continued maturation in seasons to come.

The false-motion is not really what they run. They run a high ball screen, standard NBA pick and roll set concentratin on two players: Jamal or Phil or D'Lo and almost always Karr. The rest of the players clear out wit the third option the corner J. 

Jamal in limited time is the only one who has shown an ability to turn the corner to the basket when he is healthy. D'Lo is too slow and rarely goes left. Phil has the jets but not the confidence to take it. If the guard retains the ball, he is often met in the lane by one or more defenders resultin in a difficult, often off-balance jumpshot that D'Lo can hit from time to time and that Phil can if he remembers he has a floater.

When the guard gives up the ball, it is often to Karr. Problem is Karr doesnt roll.
Never.
Ever.
Look at the tape.

He always stays in position cause he unfortunately has fallen in luv wit his 15-18 foot J. While his J is effective at times and should be a weapon in his arsenal, Karr has relied on it much too often this season.

Point is, this simply does not work with this team.

The halfcourt offense has been abominable and not just because we're dealin with young'uns (and we are. and yes, its a big, big part of the lack of execution). The NBA-style offense simply doesn't work with this group of players. It barely works with the most talented of NCAA teams (see UK last year vs this year). 

Up next: How the complete lack of a low-post scorer (and not shooters) destroys any chance for a decent half-court offense.


Choz
This was actually a great post. Most of what I post is half in jest, but in all seriousness how do you expect the problems you correctly identified to be fixed? I don't expect them to be fixed. I will say this though, you can either recruit to your system or change your system. LAVIN DID NEITHER!
It is actually easier to complain about smaller things as they could actually be addressed and corrected.

Your analysis makes sense, especially the total disregard for low post presence. It seems we should expect an experienced staff to recognize and address these deficits. Do you have confidence they will?

The roster that we got is the roster we got. Chris O can become a low post scorer in 2 years. Chris Jones can be a low post scorer if he shore up the rest of his game.

But I skipped a topic on the other side of the court that needs to be addressed first (not now, but soon):

STJ will win more games if they block less shots.

Again Choz you can either recruit to your system or change your system to what you have to work with. See 7 seconds or less and Carmelo Anthony.

Everyone understands that by trying to block everything they are always out of position to rebound and they don't box out. I think everyone is ok with this FOR NOW becuase we are so boring on offense at least we have some excitement on D.

Quote from: paultzman on March 15, 2013, 01:24:03 PM

Your analysis makes sense, especially the total disregard for low post presence. It seems we should expect an experienced staff to recognize and address these deficits. Do you have confidence they will?

The roster that we got is the roster we got. Chris O can become a low post scorer in 2 years. Chris Jones can be a low post scorer if he shore up the rest of his game.

But I skipped a topic on the other side of the court that needs to be addressed first (not now, but soon):

STJ will win more games if they block less shots.

Agree, leading country in blocks is "fools gold", means folks blow by guys too often. All in all, your commentary speaks a lot to sub par roster construction and hopefully some lessons learned. Too many wings and the athlete v. BBall player issue! Thx Choz!

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 15, 2013, 01:32:33 PM

Quote from: paultzman on March 15, 2013, 01:24:03 PM

Your analysis makes sense, especially the total disregard for low post presence. It seems we should expect an experienced staff to recognize and address these deficits. Do you have confidence they will?

The roster that we got is the roster we got. Chris O can become a low post scorer in 2 years. Chris Jones can be a low post scorer if he shore up the rest of his game.

But I skipped a topic on the other side of the court that needs to be addressed first (not now, but soon):

STJ will win more games if they block less shots.

Agree, leading country in blocks is "fools gold", means folks blow by guys too often. All in all, your commentary speaks a lot to sub par roster construction and hopefully some lessons learned. Too many wings and the athlete v. BBall player issue! Thx Choz!

Sub par roster construction?!?!?!?. The roster is what it is.....You guys act as if Lavin had better options but choose to go else where. Lavin didn't ask Gathers' to decommit. He is bringing in the best players he can, and he is not going to waste a ship on a player that fills a position if he is not a BE athlete. Some players are not going to pan out, how many of you wanted Bello? How is that working out for Baylor? The player's Lavin brought in are good, now he needs to add to that and fill some of the holes.

For those of you who question Lavin's coaching ability, he did bring a perennial losing team to the NCAA's his first year. Does that not mean anything?

Quote from: paultzman on March 15, 2013, 01:39:16 PM

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 15, 2013, 01:32:33 PM

Quote from: paultzman on March 15, 2013, 01:24:03 PM

Your analysis makes sense, especially the total disregard for low post presence. It seems we should expect an experienced staff to recognize and address these deficits. Do you have confidence they will?

The roster that we got is the roster we got. Chris O can become a low post scorer in 2 years. Chris Jones can be a low post scorer if he shore up the rest of his game.

But I skipped a topic on the other side of the court that needs to be addressed first (not now, but soon):

STJ will win more games if they block less shots.

Agree, leading country in blocks is "fools gold", means folks blow by guys too often. All in all, your commentary speaks a lot to sub par roster construction and hopefully some lessons learned. Too many wings and the athlete v. BBall player issue! Thx Choz!

Sub par roster construction?!?!?!?. The roster is what it is.....You guys act as if Lavin had better options but choose to go else where. Lavin didn't ask Gathers' to decommit. He is bringing in the best players he can, and he is not going to waste a ship on a player that fills a position if he is not a BE athlete. Some players are not going to pan out, how many of you wanted Bello? How is that working out for Baylor? The player's Lavin brought in are good, now he needs to add to that and fill some of the holes.

For those of you who question Lavin's coaching ability, he did bring a perennial losing team to the NCAA's his first year. Does that not mean anything?

Roster construction comment was a reference to perhaps getting too many wing players in the initial class, especially at the expense of a post player. Sampson, Pointer, Harkless and Garrett differ in talent, but are more wing than power types. Not sure Pelle would have been an offensive post presence either. I realize Gathers was a subsequent attempt to remedy that. Let's not make this WW III. It was just a response to an excellent post by Choz re: roster makeup. Hopefully there is a place on forum for reasonable discourse.

Quote from: paultzman on March 15, 2013, 01:39:16 PM

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 15, 2013, 01:32:33 PM

Quote from: paultzman on March 15, 2013, 01:24:03 PM

Your analysis makes sense, especially the total disregard for low post presence. It seems we should expect an experienced staff to recognize and address these deficits. Do you have confidence they will?

The roster that we got is the roster we got. Chris O can become a low post scorer in 2 years. Chris Jones can be a low post scorer if he shore up the rest of his game.

But I skipped a topic on the other side of the court that needs to be addressed first (not now, but soon):

STJ will win more games if they block less shots.

Agree, leading country in blocks is "fools gold", means folks blow by guys too often. All in all, your commentary speaks a lot to sub par roster construction and hopefully some lessons learned. Too many wings and the athlete v. BBall player issue! Thx Choz!

Sub par roster construction?!?!?!?. The roster is what it is.....You guys act as if Lavin had better options but choose to go else where. Lavin didn't ask Gathers' to decommit. He is bringing in the best players he can, and he is not going to waste a ship on a player that fills a position if he is not a BE athlete. Some players are not going to pan out, how many of you wanted Bello? How is that working out for Baylor? The player's Lavin brought in are good, now he needs to add to that and fill some of the holes.

For those of you who question Lavin's coaching ability, he did bring a perennial losing team to the NCAA's his first year. Does that not mean anything?

Good Post.  With DJ Kennedy, maybe that team does more damage in the Big East tournament and advances in the NCAAs.  Currently, I like the direction of the program considering where we were coming from.

Playing a walk on for 2 minutes and correcting Pointer during a timeout are just talking points.  We are where I'd thought we would be at this point in time.  Yes, I'm a little disappointed with the roster construction as it currently stands.  No depth at point guard and lack of low post scorers.  But there's not a lot that the coaching staff can do about it now.  It's a little late in the game to grab a game changing recruit for a program like St. John's.

We can all go back and forth about this and that, but the fact is next year is Lavin's sink or swim year.  It'll be his fourth year here (third actually coaching) and he will have had more than enough time to form his own roster and try to improve his players games.  Are they going to be a top ten team?  No and for anybody thinking otherwise, consider that the team went 2-8 in their last 10 games.  But there is some help on the way.  If Orlando Sanchez is as good as advertised, he'll help the frontcourt tremendously.  If Max Hooper can at least provide a consistent shot from the outside, maybe he'll get some minutes off the bench for them.  And maybe, just maybe, some of the players really work on their games during the offseason and come back better and stronger.  So, all in all, maybe the team wins 20+ games next year and we're talking NCAA Tournament.

And if they don't, then honestly Lavin is going to have to answer some questions.  No matter what his defenders say, you can't make the salary he's making and deliver 1 tournament appearance every 4 years.  It just doesn't pay.  But he's not there yet.  Give him next year to show whether him and his assistants can mold this team into a contender.

Playing a walk on for 2 minutes and correcting Pointer during a timeout are just talking points.  We are where I'd thought we would be at this point in time.  Yes, I'm a little disappointed with the roster construction as it currently stands.  No depth at point guard and lack of low post scorers.  But there's not a lot that the coaching staff can do about it now.  It's a little late in the game to grab a game changing recruit for a program like St. John's.

We can all go back and forth about this and that, but the fact is next year is Lavin's sink or swim year.  It'll be his fourth year here (third actually coaching) and he will have had more than enough time to form his own roster and try to improve his players games.  Are they going to be a top ten team?  No and for anybody thinking otherwise, consider that the team went 2-8 in their last 10 games.  But there is some help on the way.  If Orlando Sanchez is as good as advertised, he'll help the frontcourt tremendously.  If Max Hooper can at least provide a consistent shot from the outside, maybe he'll get some minutes off the bench for them.  And maybe, just maybe, some of the players really work on their games during the offseason and come back better and stronger.  So, all in all, maybe the team wins 20+ games next year and we're talking NCAA Tournament.

And if they don't, then honestly Lavin is going to have to answer some questions.  No matter what his defenders say, you can't make the salary he's making and deliver 1 tournament appearance every 4 years.  It just doesn't pay.  But he's not there yet.  Give him next year to show whether him and his assistants can mold this team into a contender.

That's fair IMO.

Quote from: DoodyNY33 on March 15, 2013, 05:56:33 PM

Playing a walk on for 2 minutes and correcting Pointer during a timeout are just talking points.  We are where I'd thought we would be at this point in time.  Yes, I'm a little disappointed with the roster construction as it currently stands.  No depth at point guard and lack of low post scorers.  But there's not a lot that the coaching staff can do about it now.  It's a little late in the game to grab a game changing recruit for a program like St. John's.

We can all go back and forth about this and that, but the fact is next year is Lavin's sink or swim year.  It'll be his fourth year here (third actually coaching) and he will have had more than enough time to form his own roster and try to improve his players games.  Are they going to be a top ten team?  No and for anybody thinking otherwise, consider that the team went 2-8 in their last 10 games.  But there is some help on the way.  If Orlando Sanchez is as good as advertised, he'll help the frontcourt tremendously.  If Max Hooper can at least provide a consistent shot from the outside, maybe he'll get some minutes off the bench for them.  And maybe, just maybe, some of the players really work on their games during the offseason and come back better and stronger.  So, all in all, maybe the team wins 20+ games next year and we're talking NCAA Tournament.

And if they don't, then honestly Lavin is going to have to answer some questions.  No matter what his defenders say, you can't make the salary he's making and deliver 1 tournament appearance every 4 years.  It just doesn't pay.  But he's not there yet.  Give him next year to show whether him and his assistants can mold this team into a contender.

That's fair IMO.

I agree.

I dont harp on things like playin a walkon a few minutes in a big game when he was replacing scholarship players who was playin like dogs.

There are a few major things  that need correctin in my humble opinion that are larger than any in-game decision. Here is one:

STJ is playin a pro-set pick and roll offense that the team is not built to execute even wit continued maturation in seasons to come.

The false-motion is not really what they run. They run a high ball screen, standard NBA pick and roll set concentratin on two players: Jamal or Phil or D'Lo and almost always Karr. The rest of the players clear out wit the third option the corner J. 

Jamal in limited time is the only one who has shown an ability to turn the corner to the basket when he is healthy. D'Lo is too slow and rarely goes left. Phil has the jets but not the confidence to take it. If the guard retains the ball, he is often met in the lane by one or more defenders resultin in a difficult, often off-balance jumpshot that D'Lo can hit from time to time and that Phil can if he remembers he has a floater.

When the guard gives up the ball, it is often to Karr. Problem is Karr doesnt roll.
Never.
Ever.
Look at the tape.

He always stays in position cause he unfortunately has fallen in luv wit his 15-18 foot J. While his J is effective at times and should be a weapon in his arsenal, Karr has relied on it much too often this season.

Point is, this simply does not work with this team.

The halfcourt offense has been abominable and not just because we're dealin with young'uns (and we are. and yes, its a big, big part of the lack of execution). The NBA-style offense simply doesn't work with this group of players. It barely works with the most talented of NCAA teams (see UK last year vs this year). 

Up next: How the complete lack of a low-post scorer (and not shooters) destroys any chance for a decent half-court offense.


Choz
This was actually a great post. Most of what I post is half in jest, but in all seriousness how do you expect the problems you correctly identified to be fixed? I don't expect them to be fixed. I will say this though, you can either recruit to your system or change your system. LAVIN DID NEITHER!
It is actually easier to complain about smaller things as they could actually be addressed and corrected.

please stop using the quote tab at work.

It's freaking annoying trying to separate your post from that you are quoting

I dont harp on things like playin a walkon a few minutes in a big game when he was replacing scholarship players who was playin like dogs.

There are a few major things  that need correctin in my humble opinion that are larger than any in-game decision. Here is one:

STJ is playin a pro-set pick and roll offense that the team is not built to execute even wit continued maturation in seasons to come.

The false-motion is not really what they run. They run a high ball screen, standard NBA pick and roll set concentratin on two players: Jamal or Phil or D'Lo and almost always Karr. The rest of the players clear out wit the third option the corner J. 

Jamal in limited time is the only one who has shown an ability to turn the corner to the basket when he is healthy. D'Lo is too slow and rarely goes left. Phil has the jets but not the confidence to take it. If the guard retains the ball, he is often met in the lane by one or more defenders resultin in a difficult, often off-balance jumpshot that D'Lo can hit from time to time and that Phil can if he remembers he has a floater.

When the guard gives up the ball, it is often to Karr. Problem is Karr doesnt roll.
Never.
Ever.
Look at the tape.

He always stays in position cause he unfortunately has fallen in luv wit his 15-18 foot J. While his J is effective at times and should be a weapon in his arsenal, Karr has relied on it much too often this season.

Point is, this simply does not work with this team.

The halfcourt offense has been abominable and not just because we're dealin with young'uns (and we are. and yes, its a big, big part of the lack of execution). The NBA-style offense simply doesn't work with this group of players. It barely works with the most talented of NCAA teams (see UK last year vs this year). 

Up next: How the complete lack of a low-post scorer (and not shooters) destroys any chance for a decent half-court offense.

Agree with this (and been agreeing with it for two months)

Only thing I'd disagree with is the low post scorer angle, depending on how you define it. The traditional back to the basket big man who spends his summers at Pete Newell Big Man Camp and has a Kevin McHale-like array of low post moves is gone. Watch any college basketball game, and you wont see an entry pass into the post that results in a "big man move" more than two or three times in a game, if at all. To me, the modern definition of "post presence" is someone who can offensive board and who can catch and finish on the baseline off penetration. Being a good passer is nice but not necessary. If they can convert those handful of back to the basket opportunities in a game, its a bonus.

Much as I like Obekpa, he's closer to 6'7" than 6'9". Hopefully they can use the length and timing which make him such a good shot blocker and direct it toward rebounding.  He's a good passer for a big man. But my biggest problem with him is not his footwork in the post its his hands. They are awful. So going to him over the top of a zone or dumping off to him after a drive and draw is not really an option because more often than not its a clank. It sounds like Sanchez fits the more modern definition of "post presence", so maybe that gets us away from that awful (non) offense we ran this year.

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 15, 2013, 10:49:19 AM

Quote from: Poison on March 15, 2013, 09:10:33 AM

I liked Lavin when he arrived here, but I don't like how the 3 year plan suddenly became the 5 year plan.

Yeah, shame he didn't forsee his cancer diagnosis at his intro press conf.

3 to 5 is two years. I have never been critical of the extra time coach has needed to deal with his health and family matters. Why would you suggest that?

It is certainly fair to criticize a coach who has put together a poor season. Is it not?

3 to 5 is not just attributable to health in year 2...losing Harkless in year 2 was not projected and changed everything for year 3

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 15, 2013, 11:19:11 AM

Quote from: Poison on March 15, 2013, 11:15:34 AM

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 15, 2013, 10:49:19 AM

Quote from: Poison on March 15, 2013, 09:10:33 AM

I liked Lavin when he arrived here, but I don't like how the 3 year plan suddenly became the 5 year plan.

Yeah, shame he didn't forsee his cancer diagnosis at his intro press conf.

3 to 5 is two years. I have never been critical of the extra time coach has needed to deal with his health and family matters. Why would you suggest that?

It is certainly fair to criticize a coach who has put together a poor season. Is it not?

Please wit the "fair to criticize." Y'all is off the rails, lookin fo evrytin to harp on to ridic levels.

Seems like evrybdy's become a whiney bitch the last few day. And that include a lotta this board's stalwarts.

Yea, no. He's a professional making a handsome salary. Harrison went through the ringer in the media. It's more than fair to judge Lavin on the body of work. He is not absolved of everything because of off the court issues.

Not absolving coach of his responsibility...playing walk-on in BE is odd...free reign for Greene questionable...inconsistent use of certain players puzzling...BUT...we are absolutely better off than we have been in 10+ years...are heading in the right direction and expectations that we would be a top team in Year 3 after losing Harkless or that we would have a perfect roster balance after 2 years  is unreasonable IMO...

Section3 wit the wisdom.

Quote from: Poison on March 15, 2013, 11:40:01 AM

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 15, 2013, 11:19:11 AM

Quote from: Poison on March 15, 2013, 11:15:34 AM

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 15, 2013, 10:49:19 AM

Quote from: Poison on March 15, 2013, 09:10:33 AM

I liked Lavin when he arrived here, but I don't like how the 3 year plan suddenly became the 5 year plan.

Yeah, shame he didn't forsee his cancer diagnosis at his intro press conf.

3 to 5 is two years. I have never been critical of the extra time coach has needed to deal with his health and family matters. Why would you suggest that?

It is certainly fair to criticize a coach who has put together a poor season. Is it not?

Please wit the "fair to criticize." Y'all is off the rails, lookin fo evrytin to harp on to ridic levels.

Seems like evrybdy's become a whiney bitch the last few day. And that include a lotta this board's stalwarts.

Yea, no. He's a professional making a handsome salary. Harrison went through the ringer in the media. It's more than fair to judge Lavin on the body of work. He is not absolved of everything because of off the court issues.

Not absolving coach of his responsibility...playing walk-on in BE is odd...free reign for Greene questionable...inconsistent use of certain players puzzling...BUT...we are absolutely better off than we have been in 10+ years...are heading in the right direction and expectations that we would be a top team in Year 3 after losing Harkless or that we would have a perfect roster balance after 2 years  is unreasonable IMO...

I don't get why people question Lipscomb (spelling)so much?  In his short time, he looked to be to be a pretty damn good defender and he probably is one of the better shooters (not hard).  Lavin likes to reward kids that work hard in practice, and maybe this kid brings it all day, every day. 

Quote from: section3 on March 16, 2013, 09:49:14 AM

Quote from: Poison on March 15, 2013, 11:40:01 AM

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 15, 2013, 11:19:11 AM

Quote from: Poison on March 15, 2013, 11:15:34 AM

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 15, 2013, 10:49:19 AM

Quote from: Poison on March 15, 2013, 09:10:33 AM

I liked Lavin when he arrived here, but I don't like how the 3 year plan suddenly became the 5 year plan.

Yeah, shame he didn't forsee his cancer diagnosis at his intro press conf.

3 to 5 is two years. I have never been critical of the extra time coach has needed to deal with his health and family matters. Why would you suggest that?

It is certainly fair to criticize a coach who has put together a poor season. Is it not?

Please wit the "fair to criticize." Y'all is off the rails, lookin fo evrytin to harp on to ridic levels.

Seems like evrybdy's become a whiney bitch the last few day. And that include a lotta this board's stalwarts.

Yea, no. He's a professional making a handsome salary. Harrison went through the ringer in the media. It's more than fair to judge Lavin on the body of work. He is not absolved of everything because of off the court issues.

Not absolving coach of his responsibility...playing walk-on in BE is odd...free reign for Greene questionable...inconsistent use of certain players puzzling...BUT...we are absolutely better off than we have been in 10+ years...are heading in the right direction and expectations that we would be a top team in Year 3 after losing Harkless or that we would have a perfect roster balance after 2 years  is unreasonable IMO...

I don't get why people question Lipscomb (spelling)so much?  In his short time, he looked to be to be a pretty damn good defender and he probably is one of the better shooters (not hard).  Lavin likes to reward kids that work hard in practice, and maybe this kid brings it all day, every day. 

Granted he didn't look overwhelmed, isn't there a better game to give him a reward?