Next Season

Quote from: Moose on March 26, 2013, 04:28:39 PM

Quote from: survivedc on March 26, 2013, 04:25:24 PM

I don't think so Moose. That was a pretty long way to travel for fans, and it wasn't a particularly enticing matchup, especially with DJ going down. You better bet your life there would be a lot of fans if we go to the  Final Four anytime soon.  Especially if we have a little success the years before to build the base up.

Well what about last time there was sustained success.  Who went to tournament games under Jarvis.  Where were they and how many fans would you think were there?

Have to be honest, I was a younger fan at the time, so I'll have to defer to your knowledge on the subject. I just remember in 2011 hearing people in the city having conversations about the team, so I like to think that would transfer to people in the seats if that success continues.

First rounds are tough to get to in many cases.  I remember watching brackets and then spending the whole night booking travel.  Didn't even look at brackets.  And Denver was not an easy flight from NY, no question.  But we have so many alumni a lot of those early matchups depend on if we have big alumni group in the city for starters.

One thing about fans that does worry me is the culture overall.  You see these other schools in the tournament and they have a big fan support.  And I'm not talking about Ohio St playing in Dayton.  When I went to Denver in Lav's first year we had a good group but hardly a big number.  When I went to the Final Four in Detroit a few years back I was amazed at how many Nova fans were there.  Knowing they come from similar background and size as use I really couldn't picture STJ having that big of a contingent if they got there.

Forget a Final Four...even a Sweet 16 would be absolute bliss for our fanbase. Also, I never like the Nova comparisons to us. While we are both smaller catholic schools, our student populations could not be more different. St. John's has one of the most diverse student populations in the country both racially and socioeconomically. Villanova is called "Vanillanova" for a reason...the overwhelming majority there is white preppy kids  from the same backgrounds who couldn't get into the Cornell's of the world. They also live on campus. It's about as polar opposite as you can get especially when you consider we are an obvious commuter school with people rarely attending from more than 50 miles away compared to Nova where most people dorm year round and live on campus.

And those are only the differences between our student populations. I won't even get too far into the differences between our basketball teams, but Nova has gone to the NCAA's in 8/10 past years. Those include a Final Four, and several Sweet 16's and top 15 rankings. In the same time we have 1 ranking (at the very end of the season) and 1 berth all in the same year. Not only are the student populations totally different, but our basketball team's relevance could not be much further from theirs at least in the past decade.

Quote from: boo3 on March 26, 2013, 03:47:59 PM

Oh Bob....

Oh Boo.   Booooooo to you and your 4000 plus posts.  I've had a little over 300 and still get attacked and quoted like crazy - with emphasis on the crazy.  Yeah I don't care for Lavin just as I wouldn't anyone else who doesn't get the job done.  I go back to the Mullin days and have seen a lot more than most in person.  I think I've earned the right to speak my piece re the subject.  So you know what you can do with your 4000 posts.

 Medication my friend, medication. 

Quote from: Moose on March 26, 2013, 04:22:57 PM

One thing about fans that does worry me is the culture overall.  You see these other schools in the tournament and they have a big fan support.  And I'm not talking about Ohio St playing in Dayton.  When I went to Denver in Lav's first year we had a good group but hardly a big number.  When I went to the Final Four in Detroit a few years back I was amazed at how many Nova fans were there.  Knowing they come from similar background and size as use I really couldn't picture STJ having that big of a contingent if they got there.

Forget a Final Four...even a Sweet 16 would be absolute bliss for our fanbase. Also, I never like the Nova comparisons to us. While we are both smaller catholic schools, our student populations could not be more different. St. John's has one of the most diverse student populations in the country both racially and socioeconomically. Villanova is called "Vanillanova" for a reason...the overwhelming majority there is white preppy kids  from the same backgrounds who couldn't get into the Cornell's of the world. They also live on campus. It's about as polar opposite as you can get especially when you consider we are an obvious commuter school with people rarely attending from more than 50 miles away compared to Nova where most people dorm year round and live on campus.

And those are only the differences between our student populations. I won't even get too far into the differences between our basketball teams, but Nova has gone to the NCAA's in 8/10 past years. Those include a Final Four, and several Sweet 16's and top 15 rankings. In the same time we have 1 ranking (at the very end of the season) and 1 berth all in the same year. Not only are the student populations totally different, but our basketball team's relevance could not be much further from theirs at least in the past decade.

I regret bringing up Nova as it would obviously excite you.

BTW STJ is twice the size of Nova in terms of students.  STJ is either the 1st or 2nd largest Catholic school in the country.  So small is an adjective that shoudnt be used.

fail at too many words.

I think second to Depaul.

I guess my main point is that even if we do make the tourney (as in '11) the success has to either seem legit (like it has been built to) or just so surprising and rare (a la FGCU) to get fan's to travel. The years have subdued fans, but I like to think that they will be back, sooner than later.

Quote from: RedStormyNight on March 26, 2013, 04:35:37 PM

Quote from: Moose on March 26, 2013, 04:22:57 PM

One thing about fans that does worry me is the culture overall.  You see these other schools in the tournament and they have a big fan support.  And I'm not talking about Ohio St playing in Dayton.  When I went to Denver in Lav's first year we had a good group but hardly a big number.  When I went to the Final Four in Detroit a few years back I was amazed at how many Nova fans were there.  Knowing they come from similar background and size as use I really couldn't picture STJ having that big of a contingent if they got there.

Forget a Final Four...even a Sweet 16 would be absolute bliss for our fanbase. Also, I never like the Nova comparisons to us. While we are both smaller catholic schools, our student populations could not be more different. St. John's has one of the most diverse student populations in the country both racially and socioeconomically. Villanova is called "Vanillanova" for a reason...the overwhelming majority there is white preppy kids  from the same backgrounds who couldn't get into the Cornell's of the world. They also live on campus. It's about as polar opposite as you can get especially when you consider we are an obvious commuter school with people rarely attending from more than 50 miles away compared to Nova where most people dorm year round and live on campus.

And those are only the differences between our student populations. I won't even get too far into the differences between our basketball teams, but Nova has gone to the NCAA's in 8/10 past years. Those include a Final Four, and several Sweet 16's and top 15 rankings. In the same time we have 1 ranking (at the very end of the season) and 1 berth all in the same year. Not only are the student populations totally different, but our basketball team's relevance could not be much further from theirs at least in the past decade.

I regret bringing up Nova as it would obviously excite you.

BTW STJ is twice the size of Nova in terms of students.  STJ is either the 1st or 2nd largest Catholic school in the country.  So small is an adjective that shoudnt be used.

Lol...that's why I said I wouldn't really get into it, but just showing clear differences that are likely the reason for the difference in fan support. Trust me...if SJ ever makes another Final Four or hell even if they make the Sweet 16, you will see a major boost in fan support and hype around this program. I still remember in 2011 we were really only ranked like #18 and it felt like we were a top 5 team in the media. I can only imagine what a real top 5 ranking or Final Four would do.

Lol...that's why I said I wouldn't really get into it, but just showing clear differences that are likely the reason for the difference in fan support. Trust me...if SJ ever makes another Final Four or hell even if they make the Sweet 16, you will see a major boost in fan support and hype around this program. I still remember in 2011 we were really only ranked like #18 and it felt like we were a top 5 team in the media. I can only imagine what a real top 5 ranking or Final Four would do.

It was a pretty wild time when that happened. Sold out game (against USF I think), there were posters and red all over campus, people talked about the basketball team in classes. It could happen again, just need a team to get some big wins and cause some excitement.

Quote from: RedStormyNight on March 26, 2013, 04:49:35 PM

Lol...that's why I said I wouldn't really get into it, but just showing clear differences that are likely the reason for the difference in fan support. Trust me...if SJ ever makes another Final Four or hell even if they make the Sweet 16, you will see a major boost in fan support and hype around this program. I still remember in 2011 we were really only ranked like #18 and it felt like we were a top 5 team in the media. I can only imagine what a real top 5 ranking or Final Four would do.

It was a pretty wild time when that happened. Sold out game (against USF I think), there were posters and red all over campus, people talked about the basketball team in classes. It could happen again, just need a team to get some big wins and cause some excitement.

There is not a doubt in my mind our fan base will rally around this team when it's ready to really compete like in 2011. Even coming back from games at the garden on the train with SJ gear on I will occasionally get stopped and asked how the team's doing. People know we exist...they are just waiting for a reason to flood this team with support. It's just a shame that our 2011 success came when our guys were all about to leave so it killed the momentum going into 2012 with all freshmen.

Could you imagine the momentum we would have had if we got Hardy and Kennedy back along with most of the team after that season? 1 big year in isolation surrounded by bad seasons won't do much. The key is to string together consecutive great seasons to get the hype going. I was just watching highlights from 2011 of Hardy shooting...man it feels weird to see someone in a SJ jersey making so many shots with nothing but net after this year!

Too many brothers post too many words in they posts.

No one's gonna read that.

Twitter's thataway
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Quote from: Choz4Life on March 26, 2013, 04:22:28 PM

Too many brothers post too many words in they posts.

No one's gonna read that.

Twitter's thataway
----------------------------------------->

"The art of being succinct is mastered only by scallywags, the great masters and Joe Momma,"
-Quatana Rine to Choz4Life down in the 40s playground circa 1979.

One thing about fans that does worry me is the culture overall.  You see these other schools in the tournament and they have a big fan support.  And I'm not talking about Ohio St playing in Dayton.  When I went to Denver in Lav's first year we had a good group but hardly a big number.  When I went to the Final Four in Detroit a few years back I was amazed at how many Nova fans were there.  Knowing they come from similar background and size as use I really couldn't picture STJ having that big of a contingent if they got there.

Sadly, the St.John's fan is a fairweather fan. But in fairness, 5 tournament appearances in 20 years makes success the exception not the rule. I'll always support this program because it's in my nature, but for every guy like me, there are a 100 who don't want to support a bad program. To them, it's embarrassing. And if they were wrong, they wouldn't be in the majority. Truth hurts, but it's spot on.

Quote from: Foad on March 26, 2013, 05:11:30 PM

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 26, 2013, 04:22:28 PM

Too many brothers post too many words in they posts.

No one's gonna read that.

Twitter's thataway
----------------------------------------->

"The art of being succinct is mastered only by scallywags and Joe Momma,"
-Quatana Rine to Choz4Life down in the 40s playground circa 1979.

?

That seems to be a paean to verbosity. Are you sure it wasn't "brevity be the soul of wit"?

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 26, 2013, 05:18:25 PM

Quote from: Foad on March 26, 2013, 05:11:30 PM

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 26, 2013, 04:22:28 PM

Too many brothers post too many words in they posts.

No one's gonna read that.

Twitter's thataway
----------------------------------------->

"The art of being succinct is mastered only by scallywags and Joe Momma,"
-Quatana Rine to Choz4Life down in the 40s playground circa 1979.

?

That seems to be a paean to verbosity. Are you sure it wasn't "brevity be the soul of wit"?

Yes, that's it. my bad.

Quote from: Moose on March 26, 2013, 04:22:57 PM

One thing about fans that does worry me is the culture overall.  You see these other schools in the tournament and they have a big fan support.  And I'm not talking about Ohio St playing in Dayton.  When I went to Denver in Lav's first year we had a good group but hardly a big number.  When I went to the Final Four in Detroit a few years back I was amazed at how many Nova fans were there.  Knowing they come from similar background and size as use I really couldn't picture STJ having that big of a contingent if they got there.

Sadly, the St.John's fan is a fairweather fan. But in fairness, 5 tournament appearances in 20 years makes success the exception not the rule. I'll always support this program because it's in my nature, but for every guy like me, there are a 100 who don't want to support a bad program. To them, it's embarrassing. And if they were wrong, they wouldn't be in the majority. Truth hurts, but it's spot on.

It may be an inconvenient truth, but the more diverse a student population is, the less likely they are to have the same interests and priorities. This is why we will never have the same support as homogeneous student populations unless something radical like a Final Four birth or championship happens. The schools with the most support have: A) a good team B) a rather homogeneous student population C) a large percentage of students who live on campus. Surely there will be exceptions as with anything, but the ABC's above are more the rule rather than the exception. SJ does not have A, B or C.

Quote from: Foad on March 26, 2013, 11:52:10 AM

Quote from: shamsman2 on March 26, 2013, 10:18:43 AM

Your point being what? That Lavin is a chowderhead and simpleton, focused only on his own future, hired the 3 stooges as asst. coaches, an old guy who is on the bench for show and is gliding by on personality only. Well you may be right, time will tel.l won't it. Others here have doubts too and more patience perhaps, but not you. Have not read from anyone about "Lavin being infallible". While MCNPA is a 30% on the anxiety meter, where would you place yourself? Anxious people love certainty.

I always thought I was a pretty good writer and yet people are continually asking me what my point is. A less confident person would perhaps  re evaluate his self assessment. I am content to soldier on.

My point is: that the same people who read Harrison's tattoos like they're hieroglyphics and psychoanalyze him every time he blinks ignore or mock the idea that Lavin - a celebrity who suffered a very public humiliation at UCLA - might have some issues of his own and that those issues might manifest themselves in the way he behaves professionally. The very idea that he might suffer from the same emotions and neuroses as every other homo sapien is dismissed as the fantasy of a conspiracy theorist.

I don't suffer any anxiety about Saint John's. None. I don't even consider myself a "fan." I've had the fan beaten out of me over 30 years. Now I just follow the basketball team. It's kind of like bird watching. I don't root for the yellow bellied sapsuckers, I just like to look at them. The benefit of that POV is that when a see a grackle I don't mistake it for a bald eagle.

If you don't think Lavin is sliding by on his personality you're not paying attention. His personality is his strength: that's why he's a good recruiter and good with the media. If he wasn't telegenic and charming in his own vapid way the commentary would be quite different. People would be talking about his suits and parsing his post game comments. Lavin and Norm were both right when they played the "we're young" card. The same comments that were roundly mocked during the last administration are now greeted with knowing nods of the head. That's the cult of personality. It's not the speaker, it's the listener.

I don't understand how patience is relevant. I'm talking about what's happening in front of my eyes, today. Perhaps you mean that you're willing to categorize this season of atrocious basketball as something other than atrocious merely because next year the results might be different. I didn't expect this team to do much and wasn't surprised when it didn't. And I expect next year to be better. But I don't see what that has to do with why the walk ons are playing or why Dom Pointer is punching people or the wisdom of calling time outs while your team is on a run or any of the other questionable things that went on this season. Those things are troubling regardless.

I haven't called for Lavin's head - and in fact think the idea of calling for his head absurd. In the first place nobody cares what I think and in the second if Lavin were to leave now it would be catastrophic (relatively speaking obviously). No one except the lunatic fringe thinks Lavin should go anywhere. No one but the lunatic fringe thinks the program is not better off than it was 5 years ago. But on the other side of the lunatic fringe there are people who think everything is swell. Everything is not swell. It may be that the not swell bits are mere bumps in the road. But it may be also that they're sink holes. My point is: can Lavin tell the difference.

Lavin is Lavin and he has somehow gained untouchable status at St Johns.  Whether it's Koolaid in the water or just the fear of regressing to the Roberts/Jarvis days It's obvious to me that he's here to stay - provided he wants to.  That's the proviso that carries the most hope to me.  Above all Steve is a shameless self promoter with nary a shred of loyalty in his being.  Unfortunately though, he isn't very good at what he does and the odds of him finding another suck.. er, major program to buy in have become slim to none.  He's probably far better suited to the pro game with their limited practices and coaching but even with his line of sh** some sort of credentials would be necessary.  But hey, even Dunlap got a shot for squeezing 13 wins out of Lavin's putrid roster so truly, anything is possible.  I've given it some thought and it appears our only chance is rooting for another NCAA year this coming season.  We all know it will be a one shot deal so let's shoot for the moon and suck in some NBA franchise with ratings problems.  Steve's goodby speech could set some sort of record for phonyness but who cares as long as we get a shot to clean house before Cluess gets too old or lands in a better spot.  Well it's not much but it's something to hope for beyond the soon to be incessant DLo coming or going threads.

Hmmm.  Well, that was, hmmm, how should I put this... 

this thread won't be relevant until the spring transfers and DH decision comes.

Until then - any speculation is just that, wait, find out who will be here and who won't and then we can begin discussing next season.

Quote from: Foad on March 26, 2013, 05:11:30 PM

Quote from: Choz4Life on March 26, 2013, 04:22:28 PM

Too many brothers post too many words in they posts.

No one's gonna read that.

Twitter's thataway
----------------------------------------->

"The art of being succinct is mastered only by scallywags, the great masters and Joe Momma,"
-Quatana Rine to Choz4Life down in the 40s playground circa 1979.

I'm not sure I could accomplish the second, so I guess I just avoid the others.

Too many brothers post too many words in they posts.

No one's gonna read that.

Thank you, Choz.  I read 2 sentences and move on.

Just to give you guys an idea of how different we are from Nova in terms of student population...only because it was brought up how similar we are. I promise this is the last I talk about Nova.

SJ Student Population

***31% of students live on campus***
0.2% American Indian/Alaskan Native
19.1% Asian
19.5% Black/African-American
17.2% Hispanic/Latino
3.6% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.4% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
37.7% White
2.2% Unknown

Villanova Student Population

***70% of students live on campus***
6% Asian
5% Black or African American
7% Latino
76% White
2% 2 or more races
2% Race unknown

The 2 schools really couldn't be any different in these terms. Diversity has impacts on basketball support as does on-campus vs. commuters.