Does St Johns finish......?

Really no debating that or the fact that the Elite 8 team was one of the most enjoyable to watch that we have had here since I have been a fan.

Nobody's saying it wasn't.

Ran the (according to SI) 24th most corrupt administration in the history of college basketball, check. Turned stories program into laughingstock, check. Vacated 40 wins, check, finishing with .500 record at SJ, check. Left team on Death Penalty watch, check. Threw bagman under the bus, check. That's not much of a legacy.

Just talking about his success on the court. No one is disputing Jarvis was a dirtbag. He made an Elite 8, won a BET, NIT and made tourney 3 times. No one since Louie has come close to any of that. I would have signed up for Cal, Tark, whoever for 5 years no matter what happened afterwards. Despite what happened afterwards I thoroughly enjoyed the Artest / Barkley teams. I haven't really enjoyed the team since.

True Lavs has only won with norms players, but in reality Lavs has coached two seasons. If he doesn't at least get to the NCAA tourney with the talent he has brought in then i feel we can get on him a bit. He had to bring in a completely new team and granted he should take all the responsibility for academic issues with his recruits not making it to campus but if you as a STJ fan don't think we are better off with Lavs then we were a few years ago nothing i say will change your mind.

Just talking about his success on the court. No one is disputing Jarvis was a dirtbag. He made an Elite 8, won a BET, NIT and made tourney 3 times. No one since Louie has come close to any of that. I would have signed up for Cal, Tark, whoever for 5 years no matter what happened afterwards. Despite what happened afterwards I thoroughly enjoyed the Artest / Barkley teams. I haven't really enjoyed the team since.

Shirley you enjoyed TGAP first year w/ Norm's seniors.

We didn't get 5 years of Cal or Tark. We got one good year and four years of Abe Keita.

But for Jarvis there would have been no Norm. But for Norm there would have been no Lavin.

Jarvis was the worst coach, ever. There's nothing you can say that will convince me otherwise.

Are we better off with Lavin than Norm? We would be better off than Norm with me coaching. Vastly more entertaining as well. Personally, as I have said before, if given the option of a great recruiter / poor coach or good coach/ questionable recruiter I would go with the coach. A strong mid major guy would have been my preference. He would have recruited to a system and I think our long term interests would have been best served. I do believe a guy like McKillop would have gotten us back to the Louie success.

I think Lavin was a great recruiter at UCLA, who is a very good recruiter here. I have begun to have very real doubts that he can outrecruit his lack of coaching. I do not think we will be terrible again under Lavin. But I am not sure we will get to even my modest expectations of the program let alone some of the more outlandish ones some of you have. Basically I am getting tired of watching terrible basketball. I grew up a fan and will remain so, but the terrible offense and lack of NCAA appearances is pretty draining. Bottom line is I don't feel Lavin is the almighty savior some of you feel he is.

QUOTE-Shirley you enjoyed TGAP first year w/ Norm's seniors.
Jarvis was the worst coach, ever. There's nothing you can say that will convince me otherwise.-FUN


Both Love and Hate are irrational so I won't try and change your opinion about hating Jarvis.-Pretty deep huh?

My favorite teams since Lou left:
1. Jarvis Elite 8 team
2. Jarvis team upset by Gonzaga the following year
3. Mahoney David Cain year
4. Lavin / Hardy team
5. Jarvis / Hatten NCAA team
6. Fran's NCAA team
I hated every other team

Just talking about his success on the court. No one is disputing Jarvis was a dirtbag. He made an Elite 8, won a BET, NIT and made tourney 3 times. No one since Louie has come close to any of that. I would have signed up for Cal, Tark, whoever for 5 years no matter what happened afterwards. Despite what happened afterwards I thoroughly enjoyed the Artest / Barkley teams. I haven't really enjoyed the team since.

Nero was a great emperor too.   Lots of food and farking and all the other great things in life (that were there and set up for him when he got there).  Pity about the fire.  Nero was playing the fiddle, Jarvis was playing the ponies.  Other than that they were pretty similar.

I hated every other team

I liked this years team.  The shot blocking was great.

Do you think if the Elite 8 team would have won the whole thing he would be thought of as harshly? Even with everything that happened afterwards? Elite 8 team happened. I watched it. I can't wipe that away. My only point RE Jarvis is he still gets credit for that in my book. No coach since him has given a season like that, so I give him slack for that. Just my feelings. Some people don't hate Norm because he didn't embarrass the program off the court. I didn't go to SJU so I root for the basketball team not the school. I guess that is the disconnect.

Do you think if the Elite 8 team would have won the whole thing he would be thought of as harshly? Even with everything that happened afterwards? Elite 8 team happened. I watched it. I can't wipe that away. My only point RE Jarvis is he still gets credit for that in my book. No coach since him has given a season like that, so I give him slack for that. Just my feelings. Some people don't hate Norm because he didn't embarrass the program off the court. I didn't go to SJU so I root for the basketball team not the school. I guess that is the disconnect.

  I feel the same way.  That was a tremendously fun year. None of what transpired on the court that season has been dampened by the Jarvis legacy..

 disclaimer: I didn't go to STJ either.  I root for the Hoops team.

QUOTE-Shirley you enjoyed TGAP first year w/ Norm's seniors.
Jarvis was the worst coach, ever. There's nothing you can say that will convince me otherwise.-FUN


Both Love and Hate are irrational so I won't try and change your opinion about hating Jarvis.-Pretty deep huh?

My favorite teams since Lou left:
1. Jarvis Elite 8 team
2. Jarvis team upset by Gonzaga the following year
3. Mahoney David Cain year
4. Lavin / Hardy team
5. Jarvis / Hatten NCAA team
6. Fran's NCAA team
I hated every other team

Honestly I'd add Felipe's freshman year to that list for me personally.  Sure they didn't do anything but the future was never any brighter.  I enjoyed watching them and thinking, next year and 2 years from now and 3 years from now when they aren't freshmen anymore, we are going to be Final Four contenders...

Kinda makes you temper expectations for next year's team...not comparing talent levels, but if anyone had told any st johns fan in Felipe's frosh year that Felipe and Zendon would BOTH stay 4 years and only make the NCAA once...we prob would be asking, OK which one or both of them is going to tear their ACL and ruin parts of 2 seasons?  But no, they just never reached the potential we all thougth/hoped they had.

Jarvis won with Fran's recruits (mostly) and then left the program in shambles.   
I don't have a problem not giving him credit for that season.   He was a shitty recruiter, and an average (at best) in-game coach. 
What did he do that warrants any praise?   He stood on the sidelines while Postel, Barkley, and Artest won a bunch of games? 

Jarvis won with Fran's recruits (mostly) and then left the program in shambles.   
I don't have a problem not giving him credit for that season.   He was a shitty recruiter, and an average (at best) in-game coach. 
What did he do that warrants any praise?   He stood on the sidelines while Postel, Barkley, and Artest won a bunch of games? 

I think he was a good game coach, and pretty terrible at just about everything else. However, he made good half time adjustments and he won a lot of big games at St.John's.

It was his personality that turned so many people off. He refused to kiss local ass, and while I respect that to a degree, he had no other strategy for getting talent.

Personally, as I have said before, if given the option of a great recruiter / poor coach or good coach/ questionable recruiter I would go with the coach.

I think the difference between a "good coach" and a poor x's and o's -guy is significant; but I think the gap between a good recruiter and a poor one is miles.     
A good recruiter was also the fastest way to turn the program around.    Because after the Norm-era a guy who couldn't recruit well would've had absolutely nothing to work with.   Nobody wanted to come here in 2009.   

Quote from: we are sju on May 14, 2013, 11:14:31 AM

Personally, as I have said before, if given the option of a great recruiter / poor coach or good coach/ questionable recruiter I would go with the coach.

I think the difference between a "good coach" and a poor x's and o's -guy is significant; but I think the gap between a good recruiter and a poor one is miles.     
A good recruiter was also the fastest way to turn the program around.    Because after the Norm-era a guy who couldn't recruit well would've had absolutely nothing to work with.   Nobody wanted to come here in 2009.

What evidence is there that Lavin is not a good coach? Look at the success he had with the Hardy lead team. The year prior that same team, of upper classmen, stunk. Was the success that team had not due to coaching?

What evidence is there that Lavin is not a good coach?

Here, read this:

First team out according to Lunardi:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/bracketology

Quote from: STJFAN on May 15, 2013, 12:22:59 AM

What evidence is there that Lavin is not a good coach?

Here, read this:

Lavin's record is 185-108 and he spends most of his post-seasons in the NCAA tourney and advancing.  He wins a lot more than he loses.  Can't be as bad as people are claiming. 

In his two seasons as coach, his offense has resembled Norm's. Basically he had Hardy, Brownlee and to a lesser extent DJ to make plays at the end of the clock. I give him a lot of credit for picking the guys he thought could help him win and sticking to a rotation that first year. Last year there were no playmakers to help the offense and it was terrible. He played mad scientist with his rotations and did nothing to help free Harrison when teams were keying in on him or get Bourgault shots when he chose to play him. His stubbornness with his zone and reliance on Phil Greene were negatives. As far as his recruiting which is his strength, he had too many wings and no low post players or shooters.

I think we are a bubble team this year. If we get in he would have made the tourney 2 of his three years and you can't argue with that, but my main issue is with the terrible to watch offense.

the bottom line is we haven't reached the heights of the jarvis year(s).  we were cheated out of a final four by shoddy refereeing and the fact ohio state paid a couple of international players, thus vacating that final four appearance.  we also haven't sniffed a mcdonald's a-a since jarvis was here.  a big east championship...an nit championship and three ncaa appearances are nothing to sneeze at.  if the trustees listened to me back then, they would have removed father harrington after the pittsburgh fiasco.  instead, they waited until the entire school was wrapped in scandal.

this is an old debate.  thankfully, mr. repole righted the ship and we can look forward to relevancy again.