BE HONEST

Quote from: we are sju on September 20, 2013, 07:30:09 PM

I am guessing you are in your late 50's early 60's.
If you want to hold on to the notion that SJU is still thought of as a big time program I wont burst your bubble for the same reason I don't tell my son there is no Santa Claus.
The last 10 years though SHU has been a better program than us. That is really not disputable. 10 years isn't a down period. That is pretty substantial. Hopefully we can get back close to where we were but it is not a given and the longer it takes the more a darker reality will eventually come to play.
This year we should be better than SHU. How about the year after when they have Whitehead and we lose Sanchez and probably(hopefully-he plays well enough to go pro we will have been in tourney) Sampson?

I'm 28, but I'll take that as a compliment I suppose.

SJU doesn't have to be considered a big time program to be bigger than SHU which was your point that I was arguing.

Your 10 year position is somewhat arbitrary.  There's our overall history, of which ours is stronger; and there's the current roster compilation, of which ours is stronger.  I could pick any random group of years and make a case that this team is better than that team (i.e. Iona has had a better team the last two seasons, therefore they are a better program than SJU). 
If you would like it to be considered relevant, let's make it 15 years and your case is broken as the previous five years went like this: 3 NCAA appearances and an NIT finals appearance for SJU, compared to 3 NIT and 1 NCAA appearance for Seton Hall in those same 5 years.

My point is, while not wholly evident by looking at a small sample size of a specific decade, St. John's has been a stronger program historically (1724 wins vs. 1394 wins) and is currently the stronger program as the rosters are currently constituted.  Maybe the issue is our differing opinion of how to judge a program?

Whoa.  LoganK might be my new favorite poster.  Well done, sir.

As I said in an earlier post I am not comparing the history or the current coach. And yes there will be down periods but I am not talking a random time period I am talking about the LAST, MOST RECENT 10 years. Will we be better than SHU this year? We had better be! I just think it is funny people thumbing their nose as SHU. The difference between us and SHU is much closer than say us and Syracuse.

A final note on this. What SHU and Willard did is sleazy. Morton seems to be a creep and I have no idea what Whitehead gains in all of this. My point while all of what I just posted is true, if Lavin pulled the same thing, I would be fine with it and most of you weren't honest and would be too! Sorry to use him as an example but MCNPA wouldn't criticize Lavin if he killed his dog and wore it as a coat. You are telling me he would have acted outraged if Lavin brought in a top 10 kid no matter the circumstance? I guarantee most of you would either ignore the Morton thing altogether or post that Morton would be a positive for the coaching staff and whoever Lavin let go was a bum.

Wasju, I respect your honest statement of your position.  But I for one, and I'm sure there are many others, who would not be ok with it if Lavin had done it.  I strongly criticized Scott Drew when he hired John Wall's AAU coach and I was happy when Wall didn't go to Baylor.  This was done so publicly and brazenly that it looked worst than most such situations.

To be absolutely honest, of course I'd be happy we got Whitehead on one level but I'd also feel dirty and would feel deep down that it was wrong.  Tiny has come off like a sleazy used car salesman and from everything I've read I wouldn't want him around our kids and program.  Don't know Whitehead has a kid, but if he truly demanded to be the face of the program walking in the door without proving anything, than he made the right decision to go to SHU.  Good luck to him.

Why is it a negative that a kid wants to be the face of a program and get the ball a lot?

Whoa.  LoganK might be my new favorite poster.  Well done, sir.

Crap, now there's pressure on me to repeat the performance 

As I said in an earlier post I am not comparing the history or the current coach.

"Even putting aside the misguided notion that SJU is on some much higher plane of college basketball than SHU, that whole argument that it is ok for SHU but not us doesn't match history"

Matching history certainly sounds a lot like comparing the history...

As for the being ok with it if IW had chosen us; I pretty much would have the same stance as Howie.  I'd be happy to have Whitehead, but would not be pleased with the way it happened, especially if it meant the firing of one of the coaches who helped get us to where we are now.  One of the reasons I love SJU as much as I do (aside from watching games with my dad for as long as I can remember) is because of the rich tradition.  So maybe that old school philosophy is why I would like to think we are above that, regardless of how abysmal we were under the final years of Jarvis and the whole tenure of Norm.

Over the years I have become aware of the fact that Marillac approaches most topics from a very different framework than me, not that we disagree but that we get there from different starting points.  On the Whitehead situation Marillac (either here or on Redmen) noted that a kid with one and done aspirations coming in 2014 to SJU would have seniors D'Lo, and Phil Greene at SG and Jamal Branch and Rysheed Jordan at PG.   Nuf said.

Why is it a negative that a kid wants to be the face of a program and get the ball a lot?

I personally don't view those as negatives at all.  Many times, during our down years, I wanted kids to pick us for those reasons.  But he knew what the rosters were before he made the visit to SJU.  My only problem is with Tiny pimping the kid for his own gain.  In the past, I've kind of defended Tiny against attacks on these boards because I never knew why he had such a bad rep.  I still won't judge him completely by this one incident, but it does tarnish him in my eyes.

I'm glad we didn't bite.  Lavin's message is that no one kid is more important than the program as a whole.  That's the same message he sent when he suspended Dlo last year.

Whitehead is a 5 start recuit. Lincoln has been the best psal team in the city. Would have been in favor of it if tiny didn't seem like such a paper bag.

For those in favor of it I'd like to know what changes they would have made to the staff to make room.

For those in favor of it I'd like to know what changes they would have made to the staff to make room.

I myself am very eager to hear this.

Quote from: uwsfan on September 20, 2013, 04:59:30 PM

Quote from: we are sju on September 20, 2013, 04:27:07 PM

Even putting aside the misguided notion that SJU is on some much higher plane of college basketball than SHU, that whole argument that it is ok for SHU but not us doesn't match history.

St. Johns: 7th All-Time winningest program in college bb history (was as high as 5th before the decade long lul).
When people talk about SJu, they remember prolonged  periods of being very good (albiet long ago).

Seton Hall: No tradiition. have always sucked, save a few random years here and there (which every program at least has).
SH is an A-10 school that is only even in the BE because they got here before Rutgers.

And i personally think it is only ok when the HS coach being hired  truely has talent and is seen as a guy who will effectively contribute for years, and/or if the guy being recruited is a once in a generation Lebron/Durant (Whitehead not even close)

That.  On both accounts.  SJU has more history than SHU with a better current roster.  Better then, better now.  I'm not sure which part of that would lead you to believe that we are not on a higher plane; let alone refer to those of us who acknowledge that fact as having "misguided notions."

As to the latter, if that were an option I would have selected it.

 




 

Re: BE HONEST

« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2013, 04:27:07 PM »

Quote
 

Even putting aside the misguided notion that SJU is on some much higher plane of college basketball than SHU, that whole argument that it is ok for SHU but not us doesn't match history. Programs like Kansas, Kentucky, Duke(according to Fun, don't want my buddy Tha Kid to be mad at me as he used to be my occasional drinking buddy ) have all pulled similar stunts. Maybe this is the sort of thing you have to do for the right player in order to become elite

That was the entire quote. It was a poorly constructed post so I will for give you misquoting me.
What I meant was:
 1. Even putting aside the whole argument that SJU was better than SHU
2. The whole argument that it is ok for SHU and not SJU doesn't make any sense historically
3. It doesn't make any sense because much better programs than SJU has done this kind of shady recruiting  i.e.. Kentucky, Kansas, etc.

Again poorly constructed but in multiple posts I referenced last 10 years
 

For those in favor of it I'd like to know what changes they would have made to the staff to make room.

Again my argument was pure conjecture and it did not happen so I am not going to throw out a name. However it the spirit of the thread and my stance that I would have been ok with us pulling the SHU stunt I would not have a problem with any of the coaches Lavin chose to be replaced. Too bad it wouldn't have helped but Iam sure Morton could fall asleep on the bench just as well as Keady though

my problem isn't with willard who works in the same red light district as mcnpa points out as lavin, coach k, boeheim, etc.

it's the pimp in this situation whose only way to make it to division one is to sell one of his charges to the highest bidder i have a problem with.  i had a problem when our own superstar, leroy ellis, pimped his son, leron, to syracuse in exchange for a coaching job.

i posted a million times that norm should have jettisoned the dead weight coaches on his staff in favor of a pimp or two. he just didn't understand how the game was played.

Why is it a negative that a kid wants to be the face of a program and get the ball a lot?

Because there's no I in team.  Remember Felipe Lopez?

I wanted Lance Stephenson.
I wanted Richie Parker.
I wanted Lamar Odom.

I'm no choir boy and under no illusion that I am.

Also under no illusion that the dirty, corrupt cesspool that is Ncaa basketball is anything other than what it is and always has been.  An exploitive, quasi professional basketball league where money is being made by everyone but the indentured servants.

Wouldn't have mattered one iota to me if in order to get top talent we first had to hire a street pimp.

"Same as it ever was"
- DB

I wanted Lance Stephenson.
I wanted Richie Parker.
I wanted Lamar Odom.

I'm no choir boy and under no illusion that I am.

Also under no illusion that the dirty, corrupt cesspool that is Ncaa basketball is anything other than what it is and always has been.  An exploitive, quasi professional basketball league where money is being made by everyone but the indentured servants.

Wouldn't have mattered one iota to me if in order to get top talent we first had to hire a street pimp.

"Same as it ever was"
- DB

Now if I could just get you to renounce your love of Patterson and Greene I would make you my top assistant when I take over for Lavin when he takes the Baylor job.

I wanted Lance Stephenson.
I wanted Richie Parker.
I wanted Lamar Odom.

I'm no choir boy and under no illusion that I am.

Also under no illusion that the dirty, corrupt cesspool that is Ncaa basketball is anything other than what it is and always has been.  An exploitive, quasi professional basketball league where money is being made by everyone but the indentured servants.

Wouldn't have mattered one iota to me if in order to get top talent we first had to hire a street pimp.

"Same as it ever was"
- DB

Lincoln is all hype. No substance. Whitehead may be the exception. We'll see. But no high school program in the country is more overrated than them.  Richie Parker. LOL. Who the hell is that?

Quote from: we are sju on September 20, 2013, 07:30:09 PM

I am guessing you are in your late 50's early 60's.
If you want to hold on to the notion that SJU is still thought of as a big time program I wont burst your bubble for the same reason I don't tell my son there is no Santa Claus.
The last 10 years though SHU has been a better program than us. That is really not disputable. 10 years isn't a down period. That is pretty substantial. Hopefully we can get back close to where we were but it is not a given and the longer it takes the more a darker reality will eventually come to play.
This year we should be better than SHU. How about the year after when they have Whitehead and we lose Sanchez and probably(hopefully-he plays well enough to go pro we will have been in tourney) Sampson?

I'm 28, but I'll take that as a compliment I suppose.

SJU doesn't have to be considered a big time program to be bigger than SHU which was your point that I was arguing.

Your 10 year position is somewhat arbitrary.  There's our overall history, of which ours is stronger; and there's the current roster compilation, of which ours is stronger.  I could pick any random group of years and make a case that this team is better than that team (i.e. Iona has had a better team the last two seasons, therefore they are a better program than SJU). 
If you would like it to be considered relevant, let's make it 15 years and your case is broken as the previous five years went like this: 3 NCAA appearances and an NIT finals appearance for SJU, compared to 3 NIT and 1 NCAA appearance for Seton Hall in those same 5 years.

My point is, while not wholly evident by looking at a small sample size of a specific decade, St. John's has been a stronger program historically (1724 wins vs. 1394 wins) and is currently the stronger program as the rosters are currently constituted.  Maybe the issue is our differing opinion of how to judge a program?

I just realized something. You are only 28 and still look at SJU as some kind of National basketball powerhouse? That kind of crazy talk is really only reserved for those of us that actually watched Mullin and Berry play. For me that misguided notion was beaten out of me sometime during the last decade. So assuming you started following the team when you were 7 or so as I did, all you have to show for that is Jarvis' first two teams, the Hatten year, the Hardy year and 17 years of suck. 

Richie Parker. LOL. Who the hell is that?

The kid who forced an girl to fellate him in a stairwell at Manhattan Center H.S. He was definitely top 100, might have even been top 40.