St. John's vs Wisconsin 11/8

Before any of you say "relax" it's just one game, let's remember that this is our story every season. They are unprepared. It's time to stop judging our players on their press clippings.

We let a team that doesn't score put up 85 points on us.

Our defense is terrible. I don't understand how a group of upperclassmen can be so clueless on defense. The only explanation is that their coach hasn't made it a priority, or doesn't how know to teach it.

Last night was a Brian Mahoney coached team. For those that never saw him play, Felipe Lopez would drop 27 points on a good team, because he was usually scoring in bunches during garbage time just like Harrison did last night.

This team needs to figure out who they are, and it's pathetic that in year 4, they still have no idea.

I never thought I would say this but I miss Louie's coaching.
Not the most brilliant tactician but better than what we have.

I never thought I would say this but I miss Louie's coaching.
Not the most brilliant tactician but better than what we have.

One thing Louie would have done in this game press in the backcourt. We barely did it, and when we do it, it was lousy. Defense is about effort, but weren't trying hard enough. If any of these kids think they are NBA ready, they are smoking some serious crack.

 you need to get off this NBA thing...You are the only one that keeps bringing it up.

you need to get off this NBA thing...You are the only one that keeps bringing it up.

I'll get off it, when they start playing harder, and smarter.

Can't teach brains

Some of you need to take a deep breath and step away from the computer screen.

We lost by 11 to the #21 ranked team in the country in the first game of the season. It was competitive. It was a 2 possession game late in the 2nd half. As with most season openers, many of our weaknesses were exposed. The defense was putrid, and we struggled on offense out of the gate. After the 33-15 start we outscored them by a decent margin for the rest of the game.

It doesn't mean Lavin is a horrible coach, or that we were unprepared. Wisconsin was just better last night, and IMO a bad matchup for us, especially for our first game. This should not have been the first game of the year.

Also, the fouls are absurd. If this is allowed to continue, even if we end up benefiting from it, it will take away a lot of the enjoyment from the games.

Was this not a Wisconsin team playing THEIR first game of the season? Also it was a Wisconsin team that lost their ENTIRE starting frontcourt from last year-if we were in that position a lot of our fans would have an excuse for the entire season. The fact that they were favored is also alarming because it was because they have the much better coach. I agree a lot of our fans over rate our talent but it sure looked like we had more talent than Wisconsin. I still like Lavin as our coach but it is time our some of our fan base get a little more realistic with exactly where this program is and where it is going. possible NC and final four appearances that were predicted when Lavin came in seem a long way off. Also time to recognize when coach Lavvin is blowing smoke up our rses like when he was singing the praises of how Branch was the most improved player he had ever seen or how at this stage Sheed is best pt g and J Kidd is second. PULEESE!

I'm disappointed by our performance and, going in, I thought we could win.  However, Wisconsin is ranked and we are not.  This is not where we lost to an inferior team.  We lost to a team that is considered better than us, with a coach who is considered an excellent coach.

Yes, we (still) have deficiencies that should have been improved upon but the reaction to this loss is a bit over the top.

Players' have to make plays. We are still not a good shooting team. Branch, Greene, Pointer, Obekpa, Gift, etc.. are still not good shooters. That's not going to change. We have added more pieces, Jordan and Sanchez, but the core of the team remains the same, which means those issues will remain the same. The way the refs were calling the game I would have liked to see the players drive more to the basket but that's on the players, not the system.

If Lavin had Kevin Clark sitting next to him then I would think it could be a coaching issue, but he doesn't. He has some pretty good coaches on the side line helping him. They team appear to not have the IQ to play man to man which is why they play zone. A coach can tell a kid until he's blue in the face to do something and it just doesn't happen but because he is the best option he plays. It was a bad match up for us, lets give the team some time. I thought the team showed a lot of heart getting back into the game. If not for the slow start, and the foul marathon in the second half, I think we win the game. We have a good team folks, it will be an exciting season. Let's try to enjoy it and stop being so critical after every lost, we weren't going undefeated.

I still cant get my mind wrapped around how Cuse defends the 3 so well in their zone and we ALWAYS have wipe open looks as soon as we get into it. Alot of last nights first 10 minutes was effort related. They outhustled us for the first 10 and the difference was glaring.

Valgoth, we are not Cuse...yet.

Can't teach brains

True. Which is why im starting to come to the conclusion that Lavin just might not be the guy. He is who he is, his shortcomings will always be what they are.


Wisconsin is a team that we should have beaten. This is the more experienced, more talented squad. Why then is it St johns who needs more time to "gel" and adjust ?!

In the hands of a real coach, these same group of guys are an elite-8 caliber team that beats bottom top-25 teams like Wisc.  In Lavins hands, this team will make the tourney as a low seed and get bounced in the 2nd round....probably by some sharp shooting mid major.

And then next year when Jakarr & Sanchez are gone, we are back in "we're getting there, still waiting to gel" rebuilding mode.

I dont think Lavin is the long term answer for building a consistently elite program

Why did we play wisconsin? Why did we play that team from n. California a few years ago to start the season? Makes no sense to me. We match up so poorly to them why schedule them? We could have played a similar team from the sec or acc where our style of play would not have so exposed.
Positives- harrison and Sampson still have 2 more years of eligibility

Quote from: Poison on November 08, 2013, 09:20:01 PM

Tonight the part normally played by Steve Lavin will be played by Brian Mahoney.

What has lavin done better then Mahoney ?

Lavin took over a program that was down for almost 10 years...Mahoney took over when we were still relevant...Not a fair comparison yet

Why did we play wisconsin? Why did we play that team from n. California a few years ago to start the season? Makes no sense to me. We match up so poorly to them why schedule them? We could have played a similar team from the sec or acc where our style of play would not have so exposed.
Positives- harrison and Sampson still have 2 more years of eligibility

And if we make it to the NCAA let's pick our opponent-one we know we can beat. You have to play against all kinds of teams so for this I give Lavin credit.

One thing I learned for sure we don't 6 pros at least if we are talking NBA. I do fault Lavin for allowing that type of nonsense to go on.

Players' have to make plays. We are still not a good shooting team. Branch, Greene, Pointer, Obekpa, Gift, etc.. are still not good shooters. That's not going to change. We have added more pieces, Jordan and Sanchez, but the core of the team remains the same, which means those issues will remain the same. The way the refs were calling the game I would have liked to see the players drive more to the basket but that's on the players, not the system.

If Lavin had Kevin Clark sitting next to him then I would think it could be a coaching issue, but he doesn't. He has some pretty good coaches on the side line helping him. They team appear to not have the IQ to play man to man which is why they play zone. A coach can tell a kid until he's blue in the face to do something and it just doesn't happen but because he is the best option he plays. It was a bad match up for us, lets give the team some time. I thought the team showed a lot of heart getting back into the game. If not for the slow start, and the foul marathon in the second half, I think we win the game. We have a good team folks, it will be an exciting season. Let's try to enjoy it and stop being so critical after every lost, we weren't going undefeated.

I think that another thing that our ans have in the sat  is our coaching staff.  True Lavin made it to a few sweet 16's, and Gene Keady is a HOF coach but.......  How much is Keady realy involved in coaching? Don't think he is allowed during the game?  And let's look at the assistants.  Other then Whiesell, what are the strengths of the x and o guys on the bench?

One reason I believe for this slow start is that I think last year was a wasted year, with little to no player development or fundimentals coaching going on.  Assuming that Whitesell is a very good x and o guy, then this year is the first productive instructional year with this group as a whole.

I truly believe we will improve for that reason.  We ave to hope that Whitesell is all he is cracked up to be and Lavin gives him the free reign to run the team.

At least we have expectations again.  Next step is to realize some of these expectations.

A few thoughts: 
--We could have used a few 3's from Marco.  Whether he would have given it to us remains to be seen.  I think he will shoot at a decent clip.  Unfortunately, last night we really needed defense and Max would have been a liability on the floor ( not that the guys out there were doing very well).
--The flat start was a problem.  I think it was more a byproduct of tightness than lack of preparation. 
--The 3 pt defense remains a big problem.  Overall footwork on defense seems bad.  Guys are off balance, allowing the opponent to get around them or open at the three point line too easily.  I would like to see us press on occasion.  Late in the game, we caught them by surprise and they had to call a timeout on one trip.  If we switched up defenses a bit more, we could keep the opponent off balance a bit.
--Sanchez scored our first 5 points but never scored again.  That really hurt us.  He has to remain a part of the offense.  Also, Gift scored and got some boards in the first half but saw little action the rest of the game.   He could have helped.
--I think Branch will contribute but right now it seems clear that Jordan will be the starting pg ( I was wrong in my earlier opinion that Branch would start over him); and Dom should start.  Forget about the 3 guard lineup.
--Sampson looked great going to the basket.  His athleticism is phenomenal.  He should work on his 3 pt shot in practice and show it at pre-draft camps and the combine.  Better to leave the scouts guessing rather than to erase all doubt.
--Sanchez displayed a little bit of every skill it takes to be an NBA draft pick.  If he can stay out of foul trouble and give us more in each game, he will be drafted in the first round.
--Rysheed, please take control of the offense.  You've displayed the ability to do so.  Don't defer to the upperclassmen because you are the freshman.  PG is your job.
--Dlo can score.

first of all, this wasn't the first game of the season for us...it was game eight.  The coaches had this team completely unprepared. 

That being said, and this isn't a contradiction...

We got of to a slow start for one reason.  It was a ref job from the beginning.  We lost four points we should have had because the refs never heard of "continuation".  They whistled soft touch fouls, thus putting guys like sanchez on the bench while altering our rhythm.  Sure, the refs began to even things out after we were down by eighteen.  I can't say, since the coaching was so inept, that we would have won despite the refs but they took away any chance we had.

I can't understand how anyone can say hooper and bourgault are defensive liabilities when the team plays no defense.  I don't know why Gift sat so much.  He looked pretty decent.  We can't say that about everyone.

Watch us eke by Wagner or Bucknell.

 

Quote from: TONYD3 on November 08, 2013, 10:08:56 PM

Quote from: Poison on November 08, 2013, 09:20:01 PM

Tonight the part normally played by Steve Lavin will be played by Brian Mahoney.

What has lavin done better then Mahoney ?

Lavin took over a program that was down for almost 10 years...Mahoney took over when we were still relevant...Not a fair comparison yet

He's a little better at public speaking. Is he a better recruiter? Not really, no.

Quote from: simplyred on November 09, 2013, 09:25:04 AM

At least we have expectations again.  Next step is to realize some of these expectations.

A few thoughts: 
--We could have used a few 3's from Marco.  Whether he would have given it to us remains to be seen.  I think he will shoot at a decent clip.  Unfortunately, last night we really needed defense and Max would have been a liability on the floor ( not that the guys out there were doing very well).
--The flat start was a problem.  I think it was more a byproduct of tightness than lack of preparation. 
--The 3 pt defense remains a big problem.  Overall footwork on defense seems bad.  Guys are off balance, allowing the opponent to get around them or open at the three point line too easily.  I would like to see us press on occasion.  Late in the game, we caught them by surprise and they had to call a timeout on one trip.  If we switched up defenses a bit more, we could keep the opponent off balance a bit.
--Sanchez scored our first 5 points but never scored again.  That really hurt us.  He has to remain a part of the offense.  Also, Gift scored and got some boards in the first half but saw little action the rest of the game.   He could have helped.
--I think Branch will contribute but right now it seems clear that Jordan will be the starting pg ( I was wrong in my earlier opinion that Branch would start over him); and Dom should start.  Forget about the 3 guard lineup.
--Sampson looked great going to the basket.  His athleticism is phenomenal.  He should work on his 3 pt shot in practice and show it at pre-draft camps and the combine.  Better to leave the scouts guessing rather than to erase all doubt.
--Sanchez displayed a little bit of every skill it takes to be an NBA draft pick.  If he can stay out of foul trouble and give us more in each game, he will be drafted in the first round.
--Rysheed, please take control of the offense.  You've displayed the ability to do so.  Don't defer to the upperclassmen because you are the freshman.  PG is your job.
--Dlo can score.

first of all, this wasn't the first game of the season for us...it was game eight.  The coaches had this team completely unprepared.   

So if the team looses, they are unprepared? Lets give some credit to the Wisconsin players', they played better than us, period. Coach didn't tell Jordan to shoot 2-9. He didn't tell Sanchez, Jordan, and Branch combined to score and go to the free throw line less than Dukan, who prior to last night, scored a total of 11 points his first two seasons. Wisconsin is a jump shooting team and they made more free throws than we attempted. There players' made plays, ours didn't, end of story. Its a great learning experience for our team, lets learn from it and move on.