Rating Coach

Quote from: Poison on November 25, 2013, 10:56:00 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on November 25, 2013, 06:38:08 PM

Quote from: we are sju on November 25, 2013, 02:37:33 PM

Only if stating that he needs to start making tourney's and keep his players is harsh. If so, sure I am his worst critic then.

Is that all you're saying? I don't think so. You call him "the most overrated coach in college basketball." You say he should be fired if he misses the tourney this year.

If we don't make the tournament this season, do you think Lavin shouldn't be fired?

Anyone who would fire him needs their head examined.

I'm not advocating for his firing after 4 games. The season has barely started. That said, if they don't make the tournament, we can dress it up any way we like, Lavin = Mahoney. The comparison becomes a mirror image.

As it stands now, they have a lot in common as game coaches.

Quote from: boo3 on November 25, 2013, 11:15:27 AM

2011-2012,  13-19 record...  granted they are on his resume, but he coached what, 3 games that season? Although argument could be made, and I'm sure would be, that Dunlap did better than SL would have done..

I think B-, C+ is a fair grade.

I think it's reasonable to make the argument that Dunlap sucks. He won 13 games. That sucks.

This is pretty shallow.  You play with the cards you are dealt.  This guy was handed a freshmen team in the deepest conference any of us witnessed.

Quote from: Poison on November 25, 2013, 10:52:05 PM

Quote from: boo3 on November 25, 2013, 11:15:27 AM

2011-2012,  13-19 record...  granted they are on his resume, but he coached what, 3 games that season? Although argument could be made, and I'm sure would be, that Dunlap did better than SL would have done..

I think B-, C+ is a fair grade.

I think it's reasonable to make the argument that Dunlap sucks. He won 13 games. That sucks.

This is pretty shallow.  You play with the cards you are dealt.  This guy was handed a freshmen team in the deepest conference any of us witnessed.

They had 8 players, and finished the season w 6. You wanna say that's it's not fair to judge him on that season, and that's fine. But don't kiss his ass for winning 13 games. That, is the emperor's clothes.

If we end up totally sucking this season for whatever reason, you don't fire Lavin unless you have a secret commitment from Billy Donovan, Sean Miller, or Shaka Smart to take over. We were nothing before Lavin, and you don't want to risk sliding back to Norm-like obscurity by hiring a mid-major no-name. You fire Lavin, you sure as hell better be ready to make a huge splash.

Iyou don't fire Lavin .

This is crazy talk. They're never going to fire Lavin, at least not for not winning games: they don't care about the games. Maybe if he Pitino-ed a cocktail waitress or his players went on a rampage or something, but certainly not based on his W/L record. I'd worry more about him winning a couple of tournament games and quitting. My work here is done, I've restored Saint John's to its former mediocrity and now going back to the west coast, going back to TV, moving to the NBA, retiring for health reasons. There's a long list of jobs more appealing than HC in Queens.

Quote from: LJSA on November 26, 2013, 05:14:19 AM

Iyou don't fire Lavin .

This is crazy talk. They're never going to fire Lavin, at least not for not winning games: they don't care about the games. Maybe if he Pitino-ed a cocktail waitress or his players went on a rampage or something, but certainly not based on his W/L record. I'd worry more about him winning a couple of tournament games and quitting. My work here is done, I've restored Saint John's to its former mediocrity and now going back to the west coast, going back to TV, moving to the NBA, retiring for health reasons. There's a long list of jobs more appealing than HC in Queens.

I would not be shocked to see him make a move back to TV or something else in the next few years. The grind of coaching kids today is taxing and he may want to enjoy life, especially in view of his health history. If that happens, so be it. I personally would then try to get an energetic, hungry guy, who has had success at a lower level,  like a Masiello. That person will have to be proficient at recruiting, coaching, fund raising and media relations.  One can say someone like Mas may be short on experience, but this job will not be appealing to the top level guys. Why not take a risk on experience and go with a smart, energetic riser?

That said, time to focus on what matters, this season.

If we end up totally sucking this season for whatever reason, you don't fire Lavin unless you have a secret commitment from Billy Donovan, Sean Miller, or Shaka Smart to take over. We were nothing before Lavin, and you don't want to risk sliding back to Norm-like obscurity by hiring a mid-major no-name. You fire Lavin, you sure as hell better be ready to make a huge splash.

Hiring Norm wasn't a bad move because of where he came from or because of his position. He was horrible at every aspect of the game, except basically recruiting nice kids who didn't get in any trouble.

It's not fair or wise to say we'd never go after a no name again. Who were Calhoun, Boeheim and Coach K before they were hired? Personally, I like the kid on Manhattan, and the Stony Brook coach. Not saying i want them as my coach but you can't paint every unknown w the same brush.

Lavin isn't on the hot seat at this point, but if you think he'll escape another disappointing season without ending up on it, I think you're wrong. Hopefully, none of us will have this conversation.

But missing the dance yet again really begs the question, outside of summer hype, what would have really been the difference between where we were and where we are?  Are we okay w not dancing because we missed the tournament in style?

Quote from: LJSA on November 26, 2013, 05:14:19 AM

If we end up totally sucking this season for whatever reason, you don't fire Lavin unless you have a secret commitment from Billy Donovan, Sean Miller, or Shaka Smart to take over. We were nothing before Lavin, and you don't want to risk sliding back to Norm-like obscurity by hiring a mid-major no-name. You fire Lavin, you sure as hell better be ready to make a huge splash.

Hiring Norm wasn't a bad move because of where he came from or because of his position. He was horrible at every aspect of the game, except basically recruiting nice kids who didn't get in any trouble.

It's not fair or wise to say we'd never go after a no name again. Who were Calhoun, Boeheim and Coach K before they were hired? Personally, I like the kid on Manhattan, and the Stony Brook coach. Not saying i want them as my coach but you can't paint every unknown w the same brush.

Lavin isn't on the hot seat at this point, but if you think he'll escape another disappointing season without ending up on it, I think you're wrong. Hopefully, none of us will have this conversation.

But missing the dance yet again really begs the question, outside of summer hype, what would have really been the difference between where we were and where we are?  Are we okay w not dancing because we missed the tournament in style?

Good post.

Quote from: LJSA on November 26, 2013, 05:14:19 AM

If we end up totally sucking this season for whatever reason, you don't fire Lavin unless you have a secret commitment from Billy Donovan, Sean Miller, or Shaka Smart to take over. We were nothing before Lavin, and you don't want to risk sliding back to Norm-like obscurity by hiring a mid-major no-name. You fire Lavin, you sure as hell better be ready to make a huge splash.

Hiring Norm wasn't a bad move because of where he came from or because of his position. He was horrible at every aspect of the game, except basically recruiting nice kids who didn't get in any trouble.

It's not fair or wise to say we'd never go after a no name again. Who were Calhoun, Boeheim and Coach K before they were hired? Personally, I like the kid on Manhattan, and the Stony Brook coach. Not saying i want them as my coach but you can't paint every unknown w the same brush.

Lavin isn't on the hot seat at this point, but if you think he'll escape another disappointing season without ending up on it, I think you're wrong. Hopefully, none of us will have this conversation.

But missing the dance yet again really begs the question, outside of summer hype, what would have really been the difference between where we were and where we are?  Are we okay w not dancing because we missed the tournament in style?

Norm's recruiting in retrospect wasn't terrible. He didn't get top tier players and never was able to get a point guard. He did get serviceable players though. If he could coach at all he would have been succesful

Quote from: Poison on November 26, 2013, 08:36:13 AM

Quote from: LJSA on November 26, 2013, 05:14:19 AM

If we end up totally sucking this season for whatever reason, you don't fire Lavin unless you have a secret commitment from Billy Donovan, Sean Miller, or Shaka Smart to take over. We were nothing before Lavin, and you don't want to risk sliding back to Norm-like obscurity by hiring a mid-major no-name. You fire Lavin, you sure as hell better be ready to make a huge splash.

Hiring Norm wasn't a bad move because of where he came from or because of his position. He was horrible at every aspect of the game, except basically recruiting nice kids who didn't get in any trouble.

It's not fair or wise to say we'd never go after a no name again. Who were Calhoun, Boeheim and Coach K before they were hired? Personally, I like the kid on Manhattan, and the Stony Brook coach. Not saying i want them as my coach but you can't paint every unknown w the same brush.

Lavin isn't on the hot seat at this point, but if you think he'll escape another disappointing season without ending up on it, I think you're wrong. Hopefully, none of us will have this conversation.

But missing the dance yet again really begs the question, outside of summer hype, what would have really been the difference between where we were and where we are?  Are we okay w not dancing because we missed the tournament in style?

Norm's recruiting in retrospect wasn't terrible. He didn't get top tier players and never was able to get a point guard. He did get serviceable players though. If he could coach at all he would have been succesful

Reading these posts on our previous coaches makes Lavin look better than when I cast my vote.  From his first season here he has made significant progress.  The few fans who attended games during Norm's last couple of seasons know that this program was dead.  MSG was empty on game days. 

In his first season Lavin brought us the Pitt game putting this program on the back page of the Sunday papers.  If you attended that game you know this program came back from that dead that afternoon.  There is no way Norm wins that game - he would have had Brownlee and Hardy sitting next to him on the bench and the Johnnies would have sunk to 500 or worse.

This season has not even begun.  How about we watch this team develop before we predict Lavin's demise?

There is absolutely no chance we make the Tourney if Norm was coaching that year. None. We beat like 7 top 10 teams to get a 6 seed. We slaughtered Duke and UConn. The end result of that season is not a good way to look at it. That was the most fun I've had watching basketball in my life.

There is absolutely no chance we make the Tourney if Norm was coaching that year. None. We beat like 7 top 10 teams to get a 6 seed. We slaughtered Duke and UConn. The end result of that season is not a good way to look at it. That was the most fun I've had watching basketball in my life.

Quote from: we are sju on November 26, 2013, 09:08:01 AM

Quote from: Poison on November 26, 2013, 08:36:13 AM

Quote from: LJSA on November 26, 2013, 05:14:19 AM

If we end up totally sucking this season for whatever reason, you don't fire Lavin unless you have a secret commitment from Billy Donovan, Sean Miller, or Shaka Smart to take over. We were nothing before Lavin, and you don't want to risk sliding back to Norm-like obscurity by hiring a mid-major no-name. You fire Lavin, you sure as hell better be ready to make a huge splash.

Hiring Norm wasn't a bad move because of where he came from or because of his position. He was horrible at every aspect of the game, except basically recruiting nice kids who didn't get in any trouble.

It's not fair or wise to say we'd never go after a no name again. Who were Calhoun, Boeheim and Coach K before they were hired? Personally, I like the kid on Manhattan, and the Stony Brook coach. Not saying i want them as my coach but you can't paint every unknown w the same brush.

Lavin isn't on the hot seat at this point, but if you think he'll escape another disappointing season without ending up on it, I think you're wrong. Hopefully, none of us will have this conversation.

But missing the dance yet again really begs the question, outside of summer hype, what would have really been the difference between where we were and where we are?  Are we okay w not dancing because we missed the tournament in style?

Norm's recruiting in retrospect wasn't terrible. He didn't get top tier players and never was able to get a point guard. He did get serviceable players though. If he could coach at all he would have been succesful

Reading these posts on our previous coaches makes Lavin look better than when I cast my vote.  From his first season here he has made significant progress.  The few fans who attended games during Norm's last couple of seasons know that this program was dead.  MSG was empty on game days. 

In his first season Lavin brought us the Pitt game putting this program on the back page of the Sunday papers.  If you attended that game you know this program came back from that dead that afternoon.  There is no way Norm wins that game - he would have had Brownlee and Hardy sitting next to him on the bench and the Johnnies would have sunk to 500 or worse.

This season has not even begun.  How about we watch this team develop before we predict Lavin's demise?

If we were just looking to upgrade from Norm you could have hired anyone. Is that the curve Lavin gets? If so a good way to be well perceived is just follow Norm around and apply for any job he previously held. In fact I think the guy who replaced him at both Queens college and the kid who took over Norm's childhood paper route still have the same gig.
After 4 years Lavin should make NCAA or get some heat.

Quote from: redstorm212 on November 26, 2013, 11:58:56 AM

There is absolutely no chance we make the Tourney if Norm was coaching that year. None. We beat like 7 top 10 teams to get a 6 seed. We slaughtered Duke and UConn. The end result of that season is not a good way to look at it. That was the most fun I've had watching basketball in my life.

Quote from: Tiznow on November 26, 2013, 11:51:55 AM

Quote from: we are sju on November 26, 2013, 09:08:01 AM

Quote from: Poison on November 26, 2013, 08:36:13 AM

Quote from: LJSA on November 26, 2013, 05:14:19 AM

If we end up totally sucking this season for whatever reason, you don't fire Lavin unless you have a secret commitment from Billy Donovan, Sean Miller, or Shaka Smart to take over. We were nothing before Lavin, and you don't want to risk sliding back to Norm-like obscurity by hiring a mid-major no-name. You fire Lavin, you sure as hell better be ready to make a huge splash.

Hiring Norm wasn't a bad move because of where he came from or because of his position. He was horrible at every aspect of the game, except basically recruiting nice kids who didn't get in any trouble.

It's not fair or wise to say we'd never go after a no name again. Who were Calhoun, Boeheim and Coach K before they were hired? Personally, I like the kid on Manhattan, and the Stony Brook coach. Not saying i want them as my coach but you can't paint every unknown w the same brush.

Lavin isn't on the hot seat at this point, but if you think he'll escape another disappointing season without ending up on it, I think you're wrong. Hopefully, none of us will have this conversation.

But missing the dance yet again really begs the question, outside of summer hype, what would have really been the difference between where we were and where we are?  Are we okay w not dancing because we missed the tournament in style?

Norm's recruiting in retrospect wasn't terrible. He didn't get top tier players and never was able to get a point guard. He did get serviceable players though. If he could coach at all he would have been succesful

Reading these posts on our previous coaches makes Lavin look better than when I cast my vote.  From his first season here he has made significant progress.  The few fans who attended games during Norm's last couple of seasons know that this program was dead.  MSG was empty on game days. 

In his first season Lavin brought us the Pitt game putting this program on the back page of the Sunday papers.  If you attended that game you know this program came back from that dead that afternoon.  There is no way Norm wins that game - he would have had Brownlee and Hardy sitting next to him on the bench and the Johnnies would have sunk to 500 or worse.

This season has not even begun.  How about we watch this team develop before we predict Lavin's demise?

If we were just looking to upgrade from Norm you could have hired anyone. Is that the curve Lavin gets? If so a good way to be well perceived is just follow Norm around and apply for any job he previously held. In fact I think the guy who replaced him at both Queens college and the kid who took over Norm's childhood paper route still have the same gig.
After 4 years Lavin should make NCAA or get some heat.

To me, there's a big difference between "get some heat" and "should be fired."

our previous coaches makes Lavin look better

They don't give this year's grades based upon how poorly the students did on last years test.

Quote from: we are sju on November 26, 2013, 12:29:02 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on November 26, 2013, 11:58:56 AM

There is absolutely no chance we make the Tourney if Norm was coaching that year. None. We beat like 7 top 10 teams to get a 6 seed. We slaughtered Duke and UConn. The end result of that season is not a good way to look at it. That was the most fun I've had watching basketball in my life.

Quote from: Tiznow on November 26, 2013, 11:51:55 AM

Quote from: we are sju on November 26, 2013, 09:08:01 AM

Quote from: Poison on November 26, 2013, 08:36:13 AM

Quote from: LJSA on November 26, 2013, 05:14:19 AM

If we end up totally sucking this season for whatever reason, you don't fire Lavin unless you have a secret commitment from Billy Donovan, Sean Miller, or Shaka Smart to take over. We were nothing before Lavin, and you don't want to risk sliding back to Norm-like obscurity by hiring a mid-major no-name. You fire Lavin, you sure as hell better be ready to make a huge splash.

Hiring Norm wasn't a bad move because of where he came from or because of his position. He was horrible at every aspect of the game, except basically recruiting nice kids who didn't get in any trouble.

It's not fair or wise to say we'd never go after a no name again. Who were Calhoun, Boeheim and Coach K before they were hired? Personally, I like the kid on Manhattan, and the Stony Brook coach. Not saying i want them as my coach but you can't paint every unknown w the same brush.

Lavin isn't on the hot seat at this point, but if you think he'll escape another disappointing season without ending up on it, I think you're wrong. Hopefully, none of us will have this conversation.

But missing the dance yet again really begs the question, outside of summer hype, what would have really been the difference between where we were and where we are?  Are we okay w not dancing because we missed the tournament in style?

Norm's recruiting in retrospect wasn't terrible. He didn't get top tier players and never was able to get a point guard. He did get serviceable players though. If he could coach at all he would have been succesful

Reading these posts on our previous coaches makes Lavin look better than when I cast my vote.  From his first season here he has made significant progress.  The few fans who attended games during Norm's last couple of seasons know that this program was dead.  MSG was empty on game days. 

In his first season Lavin brought us the Pitt game putting this program on the back page of the Sunday papers.  If you attended that game you know this program came back from that dead that afternoon.  There is no way Norm wins that game - he would have had Brownlee and Hardy sitting next to him on the bench and the Johnnies would have sunk to 500 or worse.

This season has not even begun.  How about we watch this team develop before we predict Lavin's demise?

If we were just looking to upgrade from Norm you could have hired anyone. Is that the curve Lavin gets? If so a good way to be well perceived is just follow Norm around and apply for any job he previously held. In fact I think the guy who replaced him at both Queens college and the kid who took over Norm's childhood paper route still have the same gig.
After 4 years Lavin should make NCAA or get some heat.

To me, there's a big difference between "get some heat" and "should be fired."

Again, IMO which in fairness should be the only opinion that matters "IF NO JORDAN AND NO TOURNEY, THEN HE SHOULD BE FIRED." Now even that may have been part frustration and a bit knee jerk to the Jordan initial news. Jordan btw whom the coach has compared to every great point guard that has ever lived. Understandably as a long suffering fan who has been forced to watch Geno, Boothe and Phil Greene attempt to play point guard, I was excited. Supposedly Jordan is back so that crisis has been averted, but I do feel that eventually Lavin should start making some NCAA tourney appearances, no? Or is his secret mission to bring the NIT back to prominence?

Quote from: LJSA on November 26, 2013, 05:14:19 AM

If we end up totally sucking this season for whatever reason, you don't fire Lavin unless you have a secret commitment from Billy Donovan, Sean Miller, or Shaka Smart to take over. We were nothing before Lavin, and you don't want to risk sliding back to Norm-like obscurity by hiring a mid-major no-name. You fire Lavin, you sure as hell better be ready to make a huge splash.

Hiring Norm wasn't a bad move because of where he came from or because of his position. He was horrible at every aspect of the game, except basically recruiting nice kids who didn't get in any trouble.

It's not fair or wise to say we'd never go after a no name again. Who were Calhoun, Boeheim and Coach K before they were hired? Personally, I like the kid on Manhattan, and the Stony Brook coach. Not saying i want them as my coach but you can't paint every unknown w the same brush.

Lavin isn't on the hot seat at this point, but if you think he'll escape another disappointing season without ending up on it, I think you're wrong. Hopefully, none of us will have this conversation.

But missing the dance yet again really begs the question, outside of summer hype, what would have really been the difference between where we were and where we are?  Are we okay w not dancing because we missed the tournament in style?

Another disappointing season? Were we expected to go to the NCAA's last season or the year prior? Why are we discussing not going to the tournament this year 4 games in and our record is what is expected to be?  We are not considered a sure lock team to make the tournament by the national media. I know some publications have us not making it and we were pick no higher than 5th place in our own conference. So if we don't make the tournament this season, is it really a huge disappointment? Maybe for the unrealistic fan who believes we have the talent to be in the final four because we have 6 players in the top 100. Funny how the national media see it differently, maybe they only see one shooter, no one who can dribble penetrate, and no passers. Jordan is the answer to those problems but he is still a rookie and we don't know how long it will take for him to adjust to D1 level.

I think thus far Coach gets a B. I feel he could do a better job with his rotations and I didn't like the D. Martin hire as a replacement for Dunlap.     

Has Lavin conceded an NCAA appearance at this point? Has he indicated that he is happy with an NIT bid?

@SJUCoachLavin will be on w/ @MikeFrancesaYES on @WFAN660 on Wed. at 2 p.m. Discussing #SJUBB, previewing this weekend at @barclayscenter.

Count the number of times coach uses a clichéd phrase and follows it up with another similar phrase meaning the same thing and than says "if you will". Before you say I am being critical know that I had a boss that spoke in the most simplistic and basic of terms and reiterated his points numerous times. Most of my co-workers took offense and thought he was talking down to them. I didn't mind at all because you always knew just what he wanted done and it made your job easier.

Quote from: Poison on November 26, 2013, 08:36:13 AM

Quote from: LJSA on November 26, 2013, 05:14:19 AM

If we end up totally sucking this season for whatever reason, you don't fire Lavin unless you have a secret commitment from Billy Donovan, Sean Miller, or Shaka Smart to take over. We were nothing before Lavin, and you don't want to risk sliding back to Norm-like obscurity by hiring a mid-major no-name. You fire Lavin, you sure as hell better be ready to make a huge splash.

Hiring Norm wasn't a bad move because of where he came from or because of his position. He was horrible at every aspect of the game, except basically recruiting nice kids who didn't get in any trouble.

It's not fair or wise to say we'd never go after a no name again. Who were Calhoun, Boeheim and Coach K before they were hired? Personally, I like the kid on Manhattan, and the Stony Brook coach. Not saying i want them as my coach but you can't paint every unknown w the same brush.

Lavin isn't on the hot seat at this point, but if you think he'll escape another disappointing season without ending up on it, I think you're wrong. Hopefully, none of us will have this conversation.

But missing the dance yet again really begs the question, outside of summer hype, what would have really been the difference between where we were and where we are?  Are we okay w not dancing because we missed the tournament in style?

Norm's recruiting in retrospect wasn't terrible. He didn't get top tier players and never was able to get a point guard. He did get serviceable players though. If he could coach at all he would have been succesful

I think Norm's recruiting was much worse than terrible. His judgement was horrendous. And as loyal fans, we gave him time early on buying into the bogus excuse that Jarvis left the program in
in the shambles and therefore Norm deserved a fair shake.

It goes deeper than losing Corey Fisher to Nova and Devin Ebanks to WV. Norm chose Malik Stith over Chaz Williams. He simply didn't have a mind for the game.