Was Norm Roberts a better talent evaluator then coach Lavin?

Quote from: Dave on November 27, 2013, 10:41:42 AM

Glen Braica gets a large credit for a lot of the evaluations of Norm-era recruits as does Tony Chiles for Lavin.

Does Chiles also get the blame for sending those 3 kids to his friends prep school a few summers ago too..?

Quote from: Dave on November 27, 2013, 10:41:42 AM

Glen Braica gets a large credit for a lot of the evaluations of Norm-era recruits as does Tony Chiles for Lavin.

Does Chiles also get the blame for sending those 3 kids to his friends prep school a few summers ago too..?

Their are fair criticisms of Lavin and there is this. Lavin criticism is MOSTLY due to higher expectations. Norm was a train wreck

Holy crap, I'm gonna try and dummy down what I originally posted so the linguistically challenged among us can better understand my question/ point. 

1.  In no way did I state that Norm was a better coach, as good a coach as Lavin, or even an adequite coach.  In fact I thought he was pretty poor.

2. My question was, since Lavin took Norms recruits who were far less glorified, more lowly rated out of high school and some of whom were on no ones radar, to win against several teams in the top 10 or 20, where as our present group of payers have not even sniffed such success.  Did Norm bring in better players, or, was he a better evaluator of talent?

Simple question and consider this, if Lavin has brought in better talent, how do you explain the poor results to date.  And if anyone dismisses our poor performance to date vs. some of the poor competition we have faced, then you are only kidding yourself. 

Again, at this point this is not a knock on Lavin as its obvious he has some coaching skills (or was it Dunlap), as his first year was an enormous success, but with Norm's players.

Hope this clears things up for those of you who seem confused.

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on November 27, 2013, 11:16:47 PM

Holy crap, I'm gonna try and dummy down what I originally posted so the linguistically challenged among us can better understand my question/ point. 

1.  In no way did I state that Norm was a better coach, as good a coach as Lavin, or even an adequite coach.  In fact I thought he was pretty poor.

2. My question was, since Lavin took Norms recruits who were far less glorified, more lowly rated out of high school and some of whom were on no ones radar, to win against several teams in the top 10 or 20, where as our present group of payers have not even sniffed such success.  Did Norm bring in better players, or, was he a better evaluator of talent?

Simple question and consider this, if Lavin has brought in better talent, how do you explain the poor results to date.  And if anyone dismisses our poor performance to date vs. some of the poor competition we have faced, then you are only kidding yourself. 

Again, at this point this is not a knock on Lavin as its obvious he has some coaching skills (or was it Dunlap), as his first year was an enormous success, but with Norm's players.

Hope this clears things up for those of you who seem confused.

.

By poor results at SJU, you are referring to his winning record at SJU despite a season derailed  by cancer and graduation of 12 players, with 2 post-season appearances, and our current 4-1 record?  Just trying to be clear on this, because I'm not really sure what you are referring to, in only Lavin's 4th season?

Ya see,  I'm still confused...  It seems that Lavin at UCLA was only given credit for his talent evaluation and recruiting and not for his coaching.  Somehow, he talent evaluated his way to 5 Sweet 16's and an Elite 8 as well as only 1 losing season.  Now at SJU, Norm is the better talent evaluator, and Lavin is culpable for his "poor" AKA "winning" record at SJU in year 4 of a massive rebuild?

For some reason, it seems that Lavin is maybe the only guy in college baskebsll history that hasn't actually earned any of his own accolades, but rather they are statistical anomalies overlooked by fans who know the real deal folk history?

Holy crap, I'm gonna try and dummy down what I originally posted so the linguistically challenged among us can better understand my question/ point. 

1.  In no way did I state that Norm was a better coach, as good a coach as Lavin, or even an adequite coach.  In fact I thought he was pretty poor.

2. My question was, since Lavin took Norms recruits who were far less glorified, more lowly rated out of high school and some of whom were on no ones radar, to win against several teams in the top 10 or 20, where as our present group of payers have not even sniffed such success.  Did Norm bring in better players, or, was he a better evaluator of talent?

Simple question and consider this, if Lavin has brought in better talent, how do you explain the poor results to date.  And if anyone dismisses our poor performance to date vs. some of the poor competition we have faced, then you are only kidding yourself. 

Again, at this point this is not a knock on Lavin as its obvious he has some coaching skills (or was it Dunlap), as his first year was an enormous success, but with Norm's players.

Hope this clears things up for those of you who seem confused.

Or in short, are tese players as good as advertised or were they overhyped as high school stars?

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on November 28, 2013, 12:27:18 AM

Or in short, are tese players as good as advertised or were they overhyped as high school stars?

Lavin was out of coaching for 8 years and filled the roster with the best players' he could. Now most were highly ranked but that is out of HS and mostly because of their athleticism. They can't get away with just athleticism at the high DI level. The hope is that they develop. If they don't it's not because the staff failed in development, some kids peak at early stages, I believe Branch and Dom are examples of peaking early. We can't cut them, just have to replace them with better talent. I don't think coach wants to recruit over them because they believed in him and committed to the program. Beginning 2015 and onward I think Lavin will be bringing in better basketball players and not just athletes.

Lavin is a terrific evaluator of talent. A freshman who wasn't good enough to play in the McD's game, was starting for the Magic two years later. Obekpa is the best shot blocker in the country.
Harrison is averaging 19 ppg. Sampson was the BE ROY. What in the hell are you talking about?

You want to call him out on Branch? Fine, but you don't understand what a high school ranking means. It's not a guarantee. A kid can get hurt, which he did. A kid can have a poor attitude, which Lindsay had, and kids can sometimes wind up ineligible to play. You want a new coach to build a house from the ground up, give him a chance to build a foundation. You don't like him? Who would you have hired instead?

And seriously, who the F did Norm Roberts evaluate accurately? Name ONE guy!

He told Cedric Jackson, a future NCAA tournament point guard, and oh yea, an NBA point guard to take a hike. How's that for evaluating talent? He had Hardy and Brownlee, his two best players buried on the bench for an entire season. He chose Malik Stith over Chaz Williams. He ignored Darryl "Truck" Bryant, who practically begged to come here.

Norm was either dumb as a brick or he was doing this to us intentionally.

Quote from: Poison on November 28, 2013, 01:40:47 AM

Lavin is a terrific evaluator of talent. A freshman who wasn't good enough to play in the McD's game, was starting for the Magic two years later. Obekpa is the best shot blocker in the country.
Harrison is averaging 19 ppg. Sampson was the BE ROY. What in the hell are you talking about?

You want to call him out on Branch? Fine, but you don't understand what a high school ranking means. It's not a guarantee. A kid can get hurt, which he did. A kid can have a poor attitude, which Lindsay had, and kids can sometimes wind up ineligible to play. You want a new coach to build a house from the ground up, give him a chance to build a foundation. You don't like him? Who would you have hired instead?

And seriously, who the F did Norm Roberts evaluate accurately? Name ONE guy!

He told Cedric Jackson, a future NCAA tournament point guard, and oh yea, an NBA point guard to take a hike. How's that for evaluating talent? He had Hardy and Brownlee, his two best players buried on the bench for an entire season. He chose Malik Stith over Chaz Williams. He ignored Darryl "Truck" Bryant, who practically begged to come here.

Norm was either dumb as a brick or he was doing this to us intentionally.

I still think Harkless left too soon.  How's he oing now?  Obekpa is a great shot locker but at the expense of getting rebounds, and good defensive positioning.  He also has a limited offensive game. Sampson is no where near NBA ready?  And collectively, what has this team accomplished to date?  Even a mediocre team with mediocre talent will get an upset or two(. Note Roberts first few years) but this team has not come close.  In terms f me not liking Lavin, not true. I actually lie the guy but I don't like his constant sales pitch like trying to say that this is the teams toughest schedule yet, which is obviously a load of garbage.

And Lavin may have whiffed on a few good players as well.  Ron Roberts who Lavin had no interest in who is now averaging something like 18/8, and John Severe who is doing quite well for himself.    Also, in terms of Norm telling Cedric Jackson to take a hike, I don't believe that's quite accurate, as I believe that CJ transferred on his own as he believed ( and rightfully so) that his game was not being developed.

if Lavin has brought in better talent, how do you explain the poor results to date.

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on November 27, 2013, 11:16:47 PM

if Lavin has brought in better talent, how do you explain the poor results to date.

Did you see the results of Norm's crew in the 1st 3 years? Why would you compare results from  their senior season against a group of freshmen and sophs (junior year has yet to play out)?