Was Norm Roberts a better talent evaluator then coach Lavin?

Just a thought.  The first year of coach Lavins tenure, we beat several teams ranked in the top 10, 20 with on paper,  less talented players. Specifically, lower rated kids out of high school.  With two highly ranked recruited classes brought in by coach Lavin, how many wins to date do we have against such high caliber teams?  Last year there were none and this year in our only game against a ranked opponent, we were barely in the game.

I was never a fan of coach Roberts or his recruiting yet coach Lavin to date had been far more successful with coach Roberts recruited players then his own. So what gives? Is it the type of players that are coming aboard? The lack of shooters? The overated hype? The loss of coach Dunlap?  Surely at this stage of the game with a most experienced team, struggling against a team of the like of Longwood ( without their leading scorer) is not a good omen. Any opinions?

Just a thought.  The first year of coach Lavins tenure, we beat several teams ranked in the top 10, 20 with on paper,  less talented players. Specifically, lower rated kids out of high school.  With two highly ranked recruited classes brought in by coach Lavin, how many wins to date do we have against such high caliber teams?  Last year there were none and this year in our only game against a ranked opponent, we were barely in the game.

I was never a fan of coach Roberts or his recruiting yet coach Lavin to date had been far more successful with coach Roberts recruited players then his own. So what gives? Is it the type of players that are coming aboard? The lack of shooters? The overated hype? The loss of coach Dunlap?  Surely at this stage of the game with a most experienced team, struggling against a team of the like of Longwood ( without their leading scorer) is not a good omen. Any opinions?

Gee, where to begin? Have you been self-medicating?

Norm Roberts lost to teams with regularity that St.John's used to beat the snot out of. He didn't teach defense, offense, and very few players improved at all under him. (DJ and Evans did) Many, actually regressed if you consider what was expected of them. (Torres, Lawrence, Burrell, Hardy, Brownlee, Boothe for example) Most of those guys were top 100 recruits or close to it. I know Burrell was ranked around 50. So don't think that Lavin is completely destroying him on the recruiting front. He's not. Norm's players simply didn't improve because of him.

How do we know that? Dwight Hardy was our best player in 10 years, and Norm had him on the bench. Brownlee was our 2nd best player in 10 years, and Norm had him on the bench. Why? Because he's clueless. There's no other reasonable explanation.

Lavin's team this season is off to a shaky start, but that is something he can fix, because we've seen him do it FOR US. If you win the game, you live to fight the next day w no penalty from the committee. Are we concerned? Hell yes, but with Norm, there was no hope that he could get the team to play better as the season wore on.

I remember watching WV at MSG Norm's last season. We were up 17 at the half. A depressed WV fan turned to me and said, "when did you guys get so good"? I told him to talk to me at the 15 minute mark and the game would be tied. I think we lost tat game by 20 points. I honestly don't don't think Norm was smart enough to have a winning record in the MAAC w St.John's. That's how bad of a job he did. Even a guy like Mahoney, who for some unknown reason, couldn't find a capable player to distribute the ball, made something out of nothing one season in 92-93, even beating SU and GTown twice. Yea, that's not a mistake, I said twice in ONE season.

It isn't fair, or even possible to judge Lavin after 5 games, or even 10. These games now, they count, they mean nothing compared to the regular BE season. We make our mark there, and a loss to Penn State, Youngstown State, San Fran or GT is meaningless.

I'm going to chill out regarding coach. I know I've been on him, and after 5 games, it's too small of a sample to know anything.

 

Their are fair criticisms of Lavin and there is this. Lavin criticism is MOSTLY due to higher expectations. Norm was a train wreck

Sometimes the reading comprehension level of some of the posters on these boards is staggering. 

The answer is yes he was.

But the most interesting thing about Coach Roberts is that coaching basketball is not his true profession, his true profession is pediatrics.

Amazing huh!

In defense of Norm re Hardy and Brownlee, we don't know how Norm would have used them in their 2nd year with the team vs. where they were just coming in from JUCO.

That being said, Lavin brings in better players than Norm did.  Whether that is a product of talent evaluation or whether Norm just had no chance with higher level recruits, I don't know.  I suspect it may be a combination of both.

At best, Norm couldn't coach mediocre players and Lavin can't coach good/very good players.  I would take the latter.

No

If interior passing from big to big starts to happen, then we are coming along. What we have not seen on any regular basis is a big receiving a pass from a guard that he can make a move with. I hoping we need to see good teams to get us going.

Glen Braica gets a large credit for a lot of the evaluations of Norm-era recruits as does Tony Chiles for Lavin.

Norm was a nice guy but this board really needs to stop comparing Lavin to him.  They are on two completely different levels of college coaching.   It seems to me that Lavin brings in highly rated recruits that all of the millions of HS recruiting "analysts".

Roberts could evaluate talent...he just couldn't get any here.

In defense of Norm re Hardy and Brownlee, we don't know how Norm would have used them in their 2nd year with the team vs. where they were just coming in from JUCO.

That being said, Lavin brings in better players than Norm did.  Whether that is a product of talent evaluation or whether Norm just had no chance with higher level recruits, I don't know.  I suspect it may be a combination of both.

At best, Norm couldn't coach mediocre players and Lavin can't coach good/very good players.  I would take the latter.

Norm buried Hardy on the bench during the Cornell game. Hardy was the only one who was able to keep up with Cornell's shooters. The team didn't lose that game. The talent was fine that season. Norm proved that season, yet again, that he can't coach. The fact that he didn't budge from Boothe at the PG position when he saw it wasn't working is proof that he is not only stubborn, but clueless.

The only time Norm won a big game, was when the other team had an off night.

Before they started playing college ball Moe Harkless and Justin Burrell were rated at about the same number in the top 100. Obekpa wasn't much further ahead than Coker on many lists. Under Norm, you weren't going to get better because of him.

Lavin hasn't gotten everything we've expected him to get out of every top 100 kid, but most have improved. Pointer is significantly improved. So is Harrison. I think Obekpa's defense is getting better. Greene has improved. Branch, Sampson and Jordan we're waiting on, bt Lavin's % for improvement is pretty damn good.

Glen Braica gets a large credit for a lot of the evaluations of Norm-era recruits as does Tony Chiles for Lavin.

Does Chiles also get the blame for sending those 3 kids to his friends prep school a few summers ago too..?

Quote from: Dave on November 27, 2013, 10:41:42 AM

Glen Braica gets a large credit for a lot of the evaluations of Norm-era recruits as does Tony Chiles for Lavin.

Does Chiles also get the blame for sending those 3 kids to his friends prep school a few summers ago too..?

Blame for what?

Some of you guys have no idea what you are talking about.  You guys think that these guys would have qualified if they had NOT gone to Philly.  You are WRONG.

Pelle clearly was not going to qualify period.  Garrett qualified after another half year of Prep and JaKarr needed another year.  Those things would have occurred EITHER WAY.  In other words Philly did not make things tougher for them to qualify.

Philly was a Hail Mary.  If you would have preferred SJU could have announced early in the summer of 2011 that all 3 have failed to meet NCAA requirements and will need an additional year of schooling (in the case of Amir 1 semester).  Philly was a prayer to try to get them qualified not the reason they failed to qualify.

They did not fail to qualify because of Philly, they were not qualified BEFORE that.

Quote from: pmg911 on November 27, 2013, 11:43:37 AM

Quote from: Dave on November 27, 2013, 10:41:42 AM

Glen Braica gets a large credit for a lot of the evaluations of Norm-era recruits as does Tony Chiles for Lavin.

Does Chiles also get the blame for sending those 3 kids to his friends prep school a few summers ago too..?

Blame for what?

Some of you guys have no idea what you are talking about.  You guys think that these guys would have qualified if they had NOT gone to Philly.  You are WRONG.

Pelle clearly was not going to qualify period.  Garrett qualified after another half year of Prep and JaKarr needed another year.  Those things would have occurred EITHER WAY.  In other words Philly did not make things tougher for them to qualify.

Philly was a Hail Mary.  If you would have preferred SJU could have announced early in the summer of 2011 that all 3 have failed to meet NCAA requirements and will need an additional year of schooling (in the case of Amir 1 semester).  Philly was a prayer to try to get them qualified not the reason they failed to qualify.

They did not fail to qualify because of Philly, they were not qualified BEFORE that.

We're all lucky to have you here to explain things to us so as we can understand em. Thank you.

Dwight Hardy was our best player in 10 years, and Norm had him on the bench. Brownlee was our 2nd best player in 10 years, and Norm had him on the bench.

DJ needs to be in this equation.  Personally,  I have him tied with Hardy and ahead of JB2.

Quote from: Poison on November 27, 2013, 09:12:41 AM

Dwight Hardy was our best player in 10 years, and Norm had him on the bench. Brownlee was our 2nd best player in 10 years, and Norm had him on the bench.

DJ needs to be in this equation.  Personally,  I have him tied with Hardy and ahead of JB2.

Career wise I'm with you. But we saw that year who our two best players were and they were DH and Brownlee. Taking absolutely nothing away from DJ, loved him and really think a player like him would change our team completely. Talk about a guy who had no problem taking it to the rack and getting hit.

absurd