Lavin's Contract

Quote from: Redstormy80 on March 11, 2014, 03:47:17 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 11, 2014, 03:43:29 PM

Quote from: Redstormy80 on March 11, 2014, 03:39:23 PM

Quote from: paultzman on March 11, 2014, 12:19:08 PM

Never cared for Goodman;

@GoodmanESPN: Two administrative decisions that have surprised me: DePaul keeping Purnell for another year, Lavin on verge of signing lengthy extension.

@GoodmanESPN: Lavin extremely likable, but went to NCAA tourney first year with Norm Roberts' players - has not gone since, may not go this year. Year 4.

Personally, I think he's pretty awful. Doesn't even try to hide his biased opinions. Question the extension all you want but the whole "went to the tourney with Norms players" is a ridiculous statement

So it wasn't Norm's players that Lav took to the tournament?

Thats not the point, he turned a 6-12 team into a 12-6 top 25 team.

You called it "ridiculous", and what he stated was a fact.  Besides Polee, they were Norm's players.
I agree with you that his comment isn't the whole story - no way Norm gets that team to the tournament.   But what he said is still true.   

Again, obviously they were Norm's players besides Polee but like you said Norm doesn't get that team to the tourney. What Goodman said completely discredits the terrific job Lavin did that year

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on March 08, 2014, 11:20:46 PM

Quote from: nudginator59 on March 08, 2014, 01:21:34 PM

5-6 years extension is a long time...the program is moving in the right direction just really slowly. No issues with the extension the years scare me a bit .

Well, consider this.  Everyone says the program is headed in the right direction but is it really? Lavin did well with Norm's recruits and Mike Dunlap in his first year, in fact that was his most impressive year.  People will point to the so called success of this year with a 20 win season but the reality is that this record was compiled with a much easier schedule and a much easier conference schedule. then his first campaign.  Can you imagine if the Big East included SYRACUSE, UCONN, CINCINNATI, LOUISVILLE, PITT?  Would the record be much better then in the past? No WAY!! So if you are going to say the team is moving in the right direction, and more successful then it has been in the past several years, you must compare apples to apples not apples to walnuts. With this watered down Big Least schedule, anything less then going three rounds in the NCAA tourney is not a team on the rise at all.   So what is the justification for the lengthy contract extension, unless having the gift of gab counts.  but wait, I forgot, we are dealing with the St. John's brain (less) trust here.

Much of the old guard is struggling getting 20 wins, not just us.  We had a losing streak before Rysheed was ready for the big time.  We've been different since then, but we certainly are better now, and Lavin had a year off from coaching with a cancer issue.   We are still on the bubble which is ok.  I hoped for 2 wins better at this point.  That said, only an idiot like Mirabella would say that nothing but 3 rounds (ie. Elite is sufficient.   That's just nice personic.  I think we had/have capability to go a round or two depending on how we are playing.  Expecting to go to the elite 8 is rabble rousing and nothing more. 

So I'm an idiot for keeping the expectations that the majority of posters had for this team from the get go? No pal, it is you who are the true idiot for making believe that such expectations are out of line and never existed.  Then again, you are a Lavin supporter so I guess his nonsensical BS style has rubbed off on you.  To this day, as Paultzman and many have pointed out, Lavin continues to spin his TOTAL BS and true idiots like yourself buy into his crap. He just recently bragged about having three straight top 10 recruited classes.  Oh really? how.  His first with Harrison and the boys was a legit class, but that top ranking did include Norvel Pelle.  His second class was led by Jakar Sampson who was really part of his first class.  Sanchez was a very good get but Obekpa was the star of that class.  And as for his third?  Does a one player class yield a top 10 class.... thats just BS!  Just listening to him spin how 5 teams should be in the BE tourney, or how him stating that "the team does not have to make the NCAA tourney for the season to be a success" or of course his infamous "we are the youngest team in America" rhetoric is enough to make any fan of any program vomit.  But As I stated before, the fools at SJU buy into his BS and will happily extend his contract.

 Whats really interesting is to read the posts by Paultzman and Moose and several others who see through all the BS with regards to recruiting etc. yet everyone (not I) soft soaps this so as not to upset other posters and to hold out hope that things will work out.  Well get used to this..................... THE BS WILL CONTINUE, THE YOUNGEST TEAM IN AMERICA WILL ONCE AGAIN RETURN, AND THE EXCUSES WILL GO ON AND ON until one day some of the true idiots on this site wake up and see what the real deal is, snake oil anyone??

I'd suggest waiting a few days before declaring Lavin a liar, a failure, a snake oil salesman, etc. 

While I'd personally be disappointed not making the tournament, it's hard to argue that a 20-11 regular season after 16-15 last season and 13-19 the year before is an abject failure...  especially considering where the program has been (for some perspective, Looie averaged only 22 reg season wins per year).   

Given the timing, this contract talk strikes me as recruiting related. 

Really year 3 if you take the "little battle" with cancer lol give me a break.... anyone who doesn't think this program is better off with lavin at helm then another mid level coach or career asst. cmon

Really year 3 if you take the "little battle" with cancer lol give me a break.... anyone who doesn't think this program is better off with lavin at helm then another mid level coach or career asst. cmon

Agree.  The guy's not perfect but we are at worst "relevant" again.  Stay the course, deal with the horrific timeouts and the PR spin

I'd suggest waiting a few days before declaring Lavin a liar, a failure, a snake oil salesman, etc. 

While I'd personally be disappointed not making the tournament, it's hard to argue that a 20-11 regular season after 16-15 last season and 13-19 the year before is an abject failure...  especially considering where the program has been (for some perspective, Looie averaged only 22 reg season wins per year).   

Given the timing, this contract talk strikes me as recruiting related. 

Those that still want him fired blame him for the 13 win season in which he was recovering from cancer surgery. I wonder if the same fans also blamed Coach K for the one season he missed at Duke.

Those that still want him fired blame him for the 13 win season in which he was recovering from cancer surgery. I wonder if the same fans also blamed Coach K for the one season he missed at Duke.

And tell me another coach that will come here that is better? Most coaches don't have it all but Lavin gets us in media, ect. We were a doormat for years..... People need to get out of the past and live now. I have tons of Cuse and Gtown friends and they all laugh at us. But with Lavin now, they see a future and if we lock him up, he can recruit, we need to realize what we really are. We made one FINAL FOUR in 25 yrs. Get with it people.

Quote

Those that still want him fired blame him for the 13 win season in which he was recovering from cancer surgery. I wonder if the same fans also blamed Coach K for the one season he missed at Duke.

And tell me another coach that will come here that is better? Most coaches don't have it all but Lavin gets us in media, ect. We were a doormat for years..... People need to get out of the past and live now. I have tons of Cuse and Gtown friends and they all laugh at us. But with Lavin now, they see a future and if we lock him up, he can recruit, we need to realize what we really are. We made one FINAL FOUR in 25 yrs. Get with it people.

I agree. As much as I'd love to be Syracuse, or even Georgetown, we have been so poor for so long, I think we have to give Lavin a chance. He's far from perfect, but he has a lot of positives. My ideal coach would be one where the talent lied in his coaching ability over his recruiting ability. But, Lavin can improve. He can surround himself with Xs and Os guys.

Two months ago, I would have been okay with firing him, but this is one of the great many reasons why I'm not the AD. If we're judging him fairly, I would grade him like this...

10-11 - A
11-12 - Incomplete
12-13 - D
13-14 - At least a B-, with the potential for a little more, or a lot more.

Quote from: MCNPA on March 08, 2014, 11:44:14 PM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on March 08, 2014, 11:20:46 PM

Quote from: nudginator59 on March 08, 2014, 01:21:34 PM

5-6 years extension is a long time...the program is moving in the right direction just really slowly. No issues with the extension the years scare me a bit .

Well, consider this.  Everyone says the program is headed in the right direction but is it really? Lavin did well with Norm's recruits and Mike Dunlap in his first year, in fact that was his most impressive year.  People will point to the so called success of this year with a 20 win season but the reality is that this record was compiled with a much easier schedule and a much easier conference schedule. then his first campaign.  Can you imagine if the Big East included SYRACUSE, UCONN, CINCINNATI, LOUISVILLE, PITT?  Would the record be much better then in the past? No WAY!! So if you are going to say the team is moving in the right direction, and more successful then it has been in the past several years, you must compare apples to apples not apples to walnuts. With this watered down Big Least schedule, anything less then going three rounds in the NCAA tourney is not a team on the rise at all.   So what is the justification for the lengthy contract extension, unless having the gift of gab counts.  but wait, I forgot, we are dealing with the St. John's brain (less) trust here.

Much of the old guard is struggling getting 20 wins, not just us.  We had a losing streak before Rysheed was ready for the big time.  We've been different since then, but we certainly are better now, and Lavin had a year off from coaching with a cancer issue.   We are still on the bubble which is ok.  I hoped for 2 wins better at this point.  That said, only an idiot like Mirabella would say that nothing but 3 rounds (ie. Elite is sufficient.   That's just nice personic.  I think we had/have capability to go a round or two depending on how we are playing.  Expecting to go to the elite 8 is rabble rousing and nothing more. 

So I'm an idiot for keeping the expectations that the majority of posters had for this team from the get go? No pal, it is you who are the true idiot for making believe that such expectations are out of line and never existed.  Then again, you are a Lavin supporter so I guess his nonsensical BS style has rubbed off on you.  To this day, as Paultzman and many have pointed out, Lavin continues to spin his TOTAL BS and true idiots like yourself buy into his crap. He just recently bragged about having three straight top 10 recruited classes.  Oh really? how.  His first with Harrison and the boys was a legit class, but that top ranking did include Norvel Pelle.  His second class was led by Jakar Sampson who was really part of his first class.  Sanchez was a very good get but Obekpa was the star of that class.  And as for his third?  Does a one player class yield a top 10 class.... thats just BS!  Just listening to him spin how 5 teams should be in the BE tourney, or how him stating that "the team does not have to make the NCAA tourney for the season to be a success" or of course his infamous "we are the youngest team in America" rhetoric is enough to make any fan of any program vomit.  But As I stated before, the fools at SJU buy into his BS and will happily extend his contract.

 Whats really interesting is to read the posts by Paultzman and Moose and several others who see through all the BS with regards to recruiting etc. yet everyone (not I) soft soaps this so as not to upset other posters and to hold out hope that things will work out.  Well get used to this..................... THE BS WILL CONTINUE, THE YOUNGEST TEAM IN AMERICA WILL ONCE AGAIN RETURN, AND THE EXCUSES WILL GO ON AND ON until one day some of the true idiots on this site wake up and see what the real deal is, snake oil anyone??

You said that anything less than an Elite 8 is not an improvement, which is an absurd of a statement as I can think of.  Right now we have 20 wins.  I think we have certainly improved, but unfortunately tanked out of the gate in league play and are now trying to grab our rightful spot in the NCAA tourney.  I certainly will be disappointed if we don't make the NCAA's.  It's not a failure, but certainly not where I think we should be.  At this point though, our destiny is still in our hands.  Win 2 games and we are in imo.  Win only now and we sweat it out.

agree with poison, except win Thursday gets a B, lose C. Stop fighting lets BEAT PROVIDENCE

Quote from: Redstormy80 on March 11, 2014, 03:39:23 PM

Quote from: paultzman on March 11, 2014, 12:19:08 PM

Never cared for Goodman;

@GoodmanESPN: Two administrative decisions that have surprised me: DePaul keeping Purnell for another year, Lavin on verge of signing lengthy extension.

@GoodmanESPN: Lavin extremely likable, but went to NCAA tourney first year with Norm Roberts' players - has not gone since, may not go this year. Year 4.

Personally, I think he's pretty awful. Doesn't even try to hide his biased opinions. Question the extension all you want but the whole "went to the tourney with Norms players" is a ridiculous statement

So it wasn't Norm's players that Lav took to the tournament?

An irrelevant point...it is only relevant if you're evaluating recruiting ability ...whether you like the players we have or not, they were highly ranked by unbiased experts and he landed them

Quote from: goredmen on March 11, 2014, 03:43:29 PM

Quote from: Redstormy80 on March 11, 2014, 03:39:23 PM

Quote from: paultzman on March 11, 2014, 12:19:08 PM

Never cared for Goodman;

@GoodmanESPN: Two administrative decisions that have surprised me: DePaul keeping Purnell for another year, Lavin on verge of signing lengthy extension.

@GoodmanESPN: Lavin extremely likable, but went to NCAA tourney first year with Norm Roberts' players - has not gone since, may not go this year. Year 4.

Personally, I think he's pretty awful. Doesn't even try to hide his biased opinions. Question the extension all you want but the whole "went to the tourney with Norms players" is a ridiculous statement

So it wasn't Norm's players that Lav took to the tournament?

An irrelevant point...it is only relevant if you're evaluating recruiting ability ...whether you like the players we have or not, they were highly ranked by unbiased experts and he landed them

Cedric Jackson. Jermaine Maybanks. Larry Wright. Dwight Hardy. Justin Brownlee. Derwin Kitchen. Justin Burrell. Malik Boothe. Sean Evans. Paris Horne. All players who improved and many who excelled once Norm was no longer coaching them.

Lavin was the answer just as much as Norm wasn't.

The Board's disappointment with the team's won loss record is due to not understanding the implications of Lavin's optimistic perspective.   When Lavin say's 'player X is the best shooter I have ever coached', we have to interpret it as meaning, 'the kid shot the ball well at practice today', but let's see how player X performs in the games.  Lavin's optimistic perspective has the following benefits:  1)  Supports player's and team's self confidence 2) 'I think I can' as opposed to 'I can't' and "fear of failure" will encourage the team to take chances and make things happen.  3) Supports recruiting as positive feedback is more inviting than criticism.  4) Kids are going to like a coach who tells the media, player x is the best shooter I have ever coached.  If the players like the coach, they will more likely buy into the coach's plan.  Every kid on that team, left high school or JC, thinking they were good enough to play every minute of every game and not one of them has complained about sharing their minutes with a teammate.

If  Lavin blamed each loss on a player or two, we might think he was a good coach, but the kids would hate him.  There would be more Nuri's and kids transferring ala - Rutgers and Mike Rice.  Quickly, the board would criticize Lavin for throwing kids under the bus.

Lavin recruits good kids.  He disciplines the kids when it is needed and consistently acts in each kid's best interest.  The transformation of Dlo has been remarkable.  Lavin's support for Rysheed during this year has been impressive.  High school coaches and kids should see the evidence that Lavin is not afraid to put the needs of an individual over the needs of the team, when appropriate.  He develops his players in all aspects of life.  There is a life outside of basketball.

Turning the program around is not done in one season.  If turning around a program was that easy, then NYU should win the NCAA tournament this year.  St John's is lucky to have this guy! 

When evaluating Lavin, it's unfair to hold the fact that he has gotten such good players against him (ie "with this talent we should get to sweet 16"), since he is the reason we have these players. In my opinion, the way to judge his job is to take the long view; put yourself in your shoes as of the day of his hiring and ask where we should be this year - year 3 of the rebuild.

Thus far, just looking at outcomes -- what matters most, just win/loss and tourneys without looking at xos, recruiting, media, etc. -- lavin has met my expectations (and in some ways exceeded them) of what a successful coach would do at sju.

Year 1 - overachieved (no expectation of reaching NCAAs with that team)
Year 2 - as expected (assumed team would be bad though being able to watch an NBA player in harkless was an unexpected positive)
Year 3 - as expected (team shows steady improvement and makes NITs)
Year 4 - as expected (20 win season and has team on NCAA bubble)

So I'm an idiot

Your words not ours

The Board's disappointment with the team's won loss record is due to not understanding the implications of Lavin's optimistic perspective.   When Lavin say's 'player X is the best shooter I have ever coached', we have to interpret it as meaning, 'the kid shot the ball well at practice today', but let's see how player X performs in the games.  Lavin's optimistic perspective has the following benefits:  1)  Supports player's and team's self confidence 2) 'I think I can' as opposed to 'I can't' and "fear of failure" will encourage the team to take chances and make things happen.  3) Supports recruiting as positive feedback is more inviting than criticism.  4) Kids are going to like a coach who tells the media, player x is the best shooter I have ever coached.  If the players like the coach, they will more likely buy into the coach's plan.  Every kid on that team, left high school or JC, thinking they were good enough to play every minute of every game and not one of them has complained about sharing their minutes with a teammate.

If  Lavin blamed each loss on a player or two, we might think he was a good coach, but the kids would hate him.  There would be more Nuri's and kids transferring ala - Rutgers and Mike Rice.  Quickly, the board would criticize Lavin for throwing kids under the bus.

Lavin recruits good kids.  He disciplines the kids when it is needed and consistently acts in each kid's best interest.  The transformation of Dlo has been remarkable.  Lavin's support for Rysheed during this year has been impressive.  High school coaches and kids should see the evidence that Lavin is not afraid to put the needs of an individual over the needs of the team, when appropriate.  He develops his players in all aspects of life.  There is a life outside of basketball.

Turning the program around is not done in one season.  If turning around a program was that easy, then NYU should win the NCAA tournament this year.  St John's is lucky to have this guy! 

Sometimes a coach should say "I don't know". Nothing wrong with that, and it humanizes them. Also, after a game like, oh, IDK, Depaul in Chicago, maybe Coach could say to the media, I made some mistakes down the stretch, and it cost us. Be a man about it.

When Norm was here, he would tell the Red/White Club things like "Sometimes a player says they're going to do things, and just don't." Then blame never fell on him. It was always the facilities, the players or bad luck.

Lavin should support the players, but ridiculous expectations have never helped STJ get to the next level. Go to Grand Central and ask Felipe how "El Savior" helped him prepare for the BE.

Those that still want him fired blame him for the 13 win season in which he was recovering from cancer surgery. I wonder if the same fans also blamed Coach K for the one season he missed at Duke.

dOOk was 9-8 overall, 0 and 6 in the ACC, and in the midst of their longest losing streak in 50 years when ScrewShrenky decided he needed surgery. When he returned he made sure the losses were attributed to poor Pete Gaudet, his former best friend, who he subsequently forced out as AC and who is now a women's high school BB coach is Shitstain Iowa.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/dukenow/where-are-they-now-pete-gaudet

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/02/12/336010/fifteen-years-later-gaudet-part.html

"Gaudet is making a brief escape from his duties as video coordinator for Ohio State’s women's team."

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/dukenow/where-are-they-now-pete-gaudet

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/02/12/336010/fifteen-years-later-gaudet-part.html

I bet you believe everything you read in Pravda too, huh.

"With the school's longest losing streak in nearly 50 years still intact, the Duke basketball team yesterday lost something more than a game: The Blue Devils won't have coach Mike Krzyzewski for the remainder of the season.

After he missed the past two weeks because of complications from back surgery last October, it was announced that Krzyzewski would not return until the start of practice for the 1995-96 season.

The announcement comes as the Blue Devils, the country's most dominant college team the past decade, are 9-8 overall and 0-6 in the Atlantic Coast Conference for the first time in league history."

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1995-01-23/sports/1995023058_1_coach-mike-krzyzewski-duke-blue-devils

Contemporaneous report, neutral source. Thanks for playing.