Just a seriously flawed team we have

In Lavins first big recruiting year ,I was not happy that he recruited Garrett. Nothing against Garrett. We had Moe,Sampson, and Dom. Thaught we needed a true PG , another true C. ,or shooter .Of course maybe Lavin knew Sampson was a long shot.

He shouldn't be immune to criticism with that first class.  The more I look back I see issues.  Anyone who wants to pretend there was nothing to pick apart from that class is blinded.

Quote from: ras on January 08, 2014, 03:27:37 PM

In Lavins first big recruiting year ,I was not happy that he recruited Garrett. Nothing against Garrett. We had Moe,Sampson, and Dom. Thaught we needed a true PG , another true C. ,or shooter .Of course maybe Lavin knew Sampson was a long shot.

He shouldn't be immune to criticism with that first class.  The more I look back I see issues.  Anyone who wants to pretend there was nothing to pick apart from that class is blinded.

Coach should not be immune from anything but those who post here and want him to fail.. And no Moose, that certainly is not you. Coach had to have players to throw out there. Job one was fielding a team that was not a primo spot for most recruits. In fact if you could play, you were not directed here. After his second class he had some players although he was not filling needs by position. This year he needed a PG, and stay or not he got one. A real center or PF would be great. He could not get one so he settled for CO who people here were thrilled to land. I would love to have a PF like Nova has. We lost a kid to Baylor and I don't know how he's doing, but that was a blow. I guess it's easier to slam the guy then remember what he walked into. I don't know if Steve is the guy. Usually ya gotta win before getting top players. It sure makes it easier. To many guys got 30 minutes on this team who should have been playing 10. Circumstances. The thing that gets me is how quick guys here turned on him. Short memories.  Any chance Steve has of building a program here is seeing tough times through. Fans here don't seem to want any part of that even if they remember the years that came before. I don't know if Steve wants to see it through. The coach that preceded Steve was and is a fine gentleman. He had awful BE record and it went on for 6 years. He never should have been let go. Those who enjoy crying would have been set.

Coach needed bodies in the first full recruiting class.  He had to replace 10.  He did a spectacular job, considering what he needed to accomplish.  It's easy to say that when you look back, you could see problems with the class.  Hindsight is 20-20.  Also, it doesn't take into account what was available by the time coach came in.  Most kids had committed or, at least, established strong bonds with the schools that had long been recruiting them.

Quote from: Moose on January 08, 2014, 03:30:07 PM

Quote from: ras on January 08, 2014, 03:27:37 PM

In Lavins first big recruiting year ,I was not happy that he recruited Garrett. Nothing against Garrett. We had Moe,Sampson, and Dom. Thaught we needed a true PG , another true C. ,or shooter .Of course maybe Lavin knew Sampson was a long shot.

He shouldn't be immune to criticism with that first class.  The more I look back I see issues.  Anyone who wants to pretend there was nothing to pick apart from that class is blinded.

Coach should not be immune from anything but those who post here and want him to fail.. And no Moose, that certainly is not you. Coach had to have players to throw out there. Job one was fielding a team that was not a primo spot for most recruits. In fact if you could play, you were not directed here. After his second class he had some players although he was not filling needs by position. This year he needed a PG, and stay or not he got one. A real center or PF would be great. He could not get one so he settled for CO who people here were thrilled to land. I would love to have a PF like Nova has. We lost a kid to Baylor and I don't know how he's doing, but that was a blow. I guess it's easier to slam the guy then remember what he walked into. I don't know if Steve is the guy. Usually ya gotta win before getting top players. It sure makes it easier. To many guys got 30 minutes on this team who should have been playing 10. Circumstances. The thing that gets me is how quick guys here turned on him. Short memories.  Any chance Steve has of building a program here is seeing tough times through. Fans here don't seem to want any part of that even if they remember the years that came before. I don't know if Steve wants to see it through. The coach that preceded Steve was and is a fine gentleman. He had awful BE record and it went on for 6 years. He never should have been let go. Those who enjoy crying would have been set.

I don't have a problem with his recruiting at all. I also don't want him to fail. I questioned his coaching, he is a professional coach and this is a fan forum. Again the real backlash is over what he pulled Saturday. That went beyond run of the mill bad coaching into twilight zone territory.

Coach needed bodies in the first full recruiting class.  He had to replace 10.  He did a spectacular job, considering what he needed to accomplish.  It's easy to say that when you look back, you could see problems with the class.  Hindsight is 20-20.  Also, it doesn't take into account what was available by the time coach came in.  Most kids had committed or, at least, established strong bonds with the schools that had long been recruiting them.

I think he did do a great job. But I thaught at the time , do we need another SF or should have we taken maybe a 3 star PG or C.

Stith was a 3 star pg.  Aside from the timing, no one was sorry to see him go.

Quote from: Moose on January 08, 2014, 03:30:07 PM

Quote from: ras on January 08, 2014, 03:27:37 PM

In Lavins first big recruiting year ,I was not happy that he recruited Garrett. Nothing against Garrett. We had Moe,Sampson, and Dom. Thaught we needed a true PG , another true C. ,or shooter .Of course maybe Lavin knew Sampson was a long shot.

He shouldn't be immune to criticism with that first class.  The more I look back I see issues.  Anyone who wants to pretend there was nothing to pick apart from that class is blinded.

Coach should not be immune from anything but those who post here and want him to fail.. And no Moose, that certainly is not you. Coach had to have players to throw out there. Job one was fielding a team that was not a primo spot for most recruits. In fact if you could play, you were not directed here. After his second class he had some players although he was not filling needs by position. This year he needed a PG, and stay or not he got one. A real center or PF would be great. He could not get one so he settled for CO who people here were thrilled to land. I would love to have a PF like Nova has. We lost a kid to Baylor and I don't know how he's doing, but that was a blow. I guess it's easier to slam the guy then remember what he walked into. I don't know if Steve is the guy. Usually ya gotta win before getting top players. It sure makes it easier. To many guys got 30 minutes on this team who should have been playing 10. Circumstances. The thing that gets me is how quick guys here turned on him. Short memories.  Any chance Steve has of building a program here is seeing tough times through. Fans here don't seem to want any part of that even if they remember the years that came before. I don't know if Steve wants to see it through. The coach that preceded Steve was and is a fine gentleman. He had awful BE record and it went on for 6 years. He never should have been let go. Those who enjoy crying would have been set.

Have to disagree.  The point I have made recently and will continue to make for awhile shows SJU in fact WAS a destination while he was filling that big class.  He got 7 highly rated kids to commit to SJU before we played a regular season game.  (Harkless, Harrison, Sampson, Lindsey, Pelle, Garrett and Pointer).  All those kids came here for two primary reasons.  1- Big East school in NYC and 2- immediate playing time.  So instead of just adding top ranked player after top ranked player and touting a Top 3 class maybe there was some repetitiveness in who he brought in as some pointed out.  And maybe he was missing a more pure PG or a shooter or a 'backup' center since Pelle was so iffy.  We seemed to get a lot of risks because they saw the bright lights of Broadway and immediate PT.  If anything a lesser class would have leveled expectations a bit.  Scrutinizing the players more might have led to a better turnout among the players. 

I don't care about Gathers who went to Baylor.  Lavin didn't screw anything up there.  Its all hindsight but maybe that first class could have been more balanced.  Like you said he needed PG this year and went out and got one.  He can recruit however right now the roster is still not constructed right IMO.

Its not a major concern but its unfortunate it started the tenure.  And it seems we're still playing catch-up.  At least I thought we were until this year but now I have to hear about February.

Quote from: jr49 on January 08, 2014, 04:25:46 PM

Quote from: Moose on January 08, 2014, 03:30:07 PM

Quote from: ras on January 08, 2014, 03:27:37 PM

In Lavins first big recruiting year ,I was not happy that he recruited Garrett. Nothing against Garrett. We had Moe,Sampson, and Dom. Thaught we needed a true PG , another true C. ,or shooter .Of course maybe Lavin knew Sampson was a long shot.

He shouldn't be immune to criticism with that first class.  The more I look back I see issues.  Anyone who wants to pretend there was nothing to pick apart from that class is blinded.

Coach should not be immune from anything but those who post here and want him to fail.. And no Moose, that certainly is not you. Coach had to have players to throw out there. Job one was fielding a team that was not a primo spot for most recruits. In fact if you could play, you were not directed here. After his second class he had some players although he was not filling needs by position. This year he needed a PG, and stay or not he got one. A real center or PF would be great. He could not get one so he settled for CO who people here were thrilled to land. I would love to have a PF like Nova has. We lost a kid to Baylor and I don't know how he's doing, but that was a blow. I guess it's easier to slam the guy then remember what he walked into. I don't know if Steve is the guy. Usually ya gotta win before getting top players. It sure makes it easier. To many guys got 30 minutes on this team who should have been playing 10. Circumstances. The thing that gets me is how quick guys here turned on him. Short memories.  Any chance Steve has of building a program here is seeing tough times through. Fans here don't seem to want any part of that even if they remember the years that came before. I don't know if Steve wants to see it through. The coach that preceded Steve was and is a fine gentleman. He had awful BE record and it went on for 6 years. He never should have been let go. Those who enjoy crying would have been set.

Have to disagree.  The point I have made recently and will continue to make for awhile shows SJU in fact WAS a destination while he was filling that big class.  He got 7 highly rated kids to commit to SJU before we played a regular season game.  (Harkless, Harrison, Sampson, Lindsey, Pelle, Garrett and Pointer).  All those kids came here for two primary reasons.  1- Big East school in NYC and 2- immediate playing time.  So instead of just adding top ranked player after top ranked player and touting a Top 3 class maybe there was some repetitiveness in who he brought in as some pointed out.  And maybe he was missing a more pure PG or a shooter or a 'backup' center since Pelle was so iffy.  We seemed to get a lot of risks because they saw the bright lights of Broadway and immediate PT.  If anything a lesser class would have leveled expectations a bit.  Scrutinizing the players more might have led to a better turnout among the players. 

I don't care about Gathers who went to Baylor.  Lavin didn't screw anything up there.  Its all hindsight but maybe that first class could have been more balanced.  Like you said he needed PG this year and went out and got one.  He can recruit however right now the roster is still not constructed right IMO.

Its not a major concern but its unfortunate it started the tenure.  And it seems we're still playing catch-up.  At least I thought we were until this year but now I have to hear about February.

It's not constructed right because certain players haven't develop. If Dom had a Jump shot and Branch had a clue, then we would be fine, imo.

I actually think we have a pretty balance roster this year.  We have 2 pg' s (Jordan, Branch); 2 sg's (Dlo, Phil); a 2/3 (Balamou); several 3's (Dom,Hooper, Marco); a 3/4 (Jakarr); a 4 (Gift); a 4/5 (Sanchez) and a 5 (Obekpa). 

The team is definitely underperforming.  Whether that is the fault of the players or the coaching staff is debatable.  Funny thing is that we are really only one game behind where we should be (PSU).  We (fans) didn't give Wisconsin the respect they deserved when we played them.  Many penciled that as a win and were disappointed/upset when we lost to them.  Now, it is clear that they are an elite team this year.  Xavier and G'town were both likely losses on the road.  I think many, including myself, thought that Xavier would be weak coming into a stronger league.  The reality is, they play a competitive OCC schedule every year (including for BE member Cinci) and they are a perennial tourney team.

The bigger problem is that we have struggled against some weak teams and got killed by some better teams.  The record itself is not far from where it ought to be.

I actually think we have a pretty balance roster this year.  We have 2 pg' s (Jordan, Branch); 2 sg's (Dlo, Phil); a 2/3 (Balamou); several 3's (Dom,Hooper, Marco); a 3/4 (Jakarr); a 4 (Gift); a 4/5 (Sanchez) and a 5 (Obekpa). 

The team is definitely underperforming.  Whether that is the fault of the players or the coaching staff is debatable.  Funny thing is that we are really only one game behind where we should be (PSU).  We (fans) didn't give Wisconsin the respect they deserved when we played them.  Many penciled that as a win and were disappointed/upset when we lost to them.  Now, it is clear that they are an elite team this year.  Xavier and G'town were both likely losses on the road.  I think many, including myself, thought that Xavier would be weak coming into a stronger league.  The reality is, they play a competitive OCC schedule every year (including for BE member Cinci) and they are a perennial tourney team.

The bigger problem is that we have struggled against some weak teams and got killed by some better teams.  The record itself is not far from where it ought to be.

Trying to be positive - Expectations should be higher for us. Wisconsin - very good team- not     
 sure if they are elite- on paper they are no better then us- that game was non competive
Penn st. Ga tech - not bad teams- not good ones either- on paper we are way better
Syracuse - was proud to a St. John's fan - team played well- still lost
Xavier George Town - is it terrible to lose to them- no but weren't competitive - our players were atleast as highly touted .
We have lost to every decent team we played. Bucknell is not a good team.
Plenty of season left- coach has time to right the ship- but he has failed big time.
If we are out coached every game how can u say he is doing a good job?
Every basketball anylst in the country raves about the skill level of our players and team, are they all wrong?

Quote from: Moose on January 08, 2014, 03:30:07 PM

Quote from: ras on January 08, 2014, 03:27:37 PM

In Lavins first big recruiting year ,I was not happy that he recruited Garrett. Nothing against Garrett. We had Moe,Sampson, and Dom. Thaught we needed a true PG , another true C. ,or shooter .Of course maybe Lavin knew Sampson was a long shot.

He shouldn't be immune to criticism with that first class.  The more I look back I see issues.  Anyone who wants to pretend there was nothing to pick apart from that class is blinded.

Coach should not be immune from anything but those who post here and want him to fail.. And no Moose, that certainly is not you. Coach had to have players to throw out there. Job one was fielding a team that was not a primo spot for most recruits. In fact if you could play, you were not directed here. After his second class he had some players although he was not filling needs by position. This year he needed a PG, and stay or not he got one. A real center or PF would be great. He could not get one so he settled for CO who people here were thrilled to land. I would love to have a PF like Nova has. We lost a kid to Baylor and I don't know how he's doing, but that was a blow. I guess it's easier to slam the guy then remember what he walked into. I don't know if Steve is the guy. Usually ya gotta win before getting top players. It sure makes it easier. To many guys got 30 minutes on this team who should have been playing 10. Circumstances. The thing that gets me is how quick guys here turned on him. Short memories.  Any chance Steve has of building a program here is seeing tough times through. Fans here don't seem to want any part of that even if they remember the years that came before. I don't know if Steve wants to see it through. The coach that preceded Steve was and is a fine gentleman. He had awful BE record and it went on for 6 years. He never should have been let go. Those who enjoy crying would have been set.

Please allow me to correct my post. I did not mean all who post here want him to fail. No way. Meant to say there are those who post here who want him to fail. I do agree the lineup he started against G.Town was on the face of it weird. He is the head coach, and it's he who must get it done.

I' think our current team is balanced on the court. PIcking up Branch,Sheed,CO ,Sanchez and hooper  rectified many of the roster deficiencies . That said,, we have to play better on the court.

I' think our current team is balanced on the court. PIcking up Branch,Sheed,CO ,Sanchez and hooper  rectified many of the roster deficiencies . That said,, we have to play better on the court.

I agree 100%.  Of course, the staff deserves some blame for the players not getting it done but they did put together a balanced roster.  The only thing really lacking is some muscle underneath.  CO is still weak physically and  Sanchez prefers to roam the perimeter.  Gift is the only "tough" guy and he is limited in what else he brings to the table.

I agree 100%.  Of course, the staff deserves some blame for the players not getting it done but they did put together a balanced roster.  The only thing really lacking is some muscle underneath.  CO is still weak physically and  Sanchez prefers to roam the perimeter.  Gift is the only "tough" guy and he is limited in what else he brings to the table.
[/quote]  No doubt. Line ups,substitution patterns and gameplan all affect the outcome,

to me it just as simple as this - bad teams hang with us because they nail a ton of three's. Good teams put us away because they hit their three's.

This team has to fight to hit two's - the other teams come down and nail three's. Until that changes, and it wont with this group - this team is going nowhere.

They don't play good enough defense (are terrible at defending threes) and they don't rebound the ball enough to survive on two's.

There will be games when they do certain things right and roll, there will be games where they play tough D (Syracuse) - but there wont be enough of them.

The Villanova game will be a case in point - don't defend the threes and Nova will bury them. If Nova is hitting the threes, can this group shoot well enough to hang?

Doubt it - but there is always hope I guess.

Quote from: jr49 on January 08, 2014, 04:25:46 PM

Quote from: Moose on January 08, 2014, 03:30:07 PM

Quote from: ras on January 08, 2014, 03:27:37 PM

In Lavins first big recruiting year ,I was not happy that he recruited Garrett. Nothing against Garrett. We had Moe,Sampson, and Dom. Thaught we needed a true PG , another true C. ,or shooter .Of course maybe Lavin knew Sampson was a long shot.

He shouldn't be immune to criticism with that first class.  The more I look back I see issues.  Anyone who wants to pretend there was nothing to pick apart from that class is blinded.

Coach should not be immune from anything but those who post here and want him to fail.. And no Moose, that certainly is not you. Coach had to have players to throw out there. Job one was fielding a team that was not a primo spot for most recruits. In fact if you could play, you were not directed here. After his second class he had some players although he was not filling needs by position. This year he needed a PG, and stay or not he got one. A real center or PF would be great. He could not get one so he settled for CO who people here were thrilled to land. I would love to have a PF like Nova has. We lost a kid to Baylor and I don't know how he's doing, but that was a blow. I guess it's easier to slam the guy then remember what he walked into. I don't know if Steve is the guy. Usually ya gotta win before getting top players. It sure makes it easier. To many guys got 30 minutes on this team who should have been playing 10. Circumstances. The thing that gets me is how quick guys here turned on him. Short memories.  Any chance Steve has of building a program here is seeing tough times through. Fans here don't seem to want any part of that even if they remember the years that came before. I don't know if Steve wants to see it through. The coach that preceded Steve was and is a fine gentleman. He had awful BE record and it went on for 6 years. He never should have been let go. Those who enjoy crying would have been set.

I don't have a problem with his recruiting at all. I also don't want him to fail. I questioned his coaching, he is a professional coach and this is a fan forum. Again the real backlash is over what he pulled Saturday. That went beyond run of the mill bad coaching into twilight zone territory.

I have a problem with huis recruiting.  In year 4, he has still not brought in a legit power forward, a 4 as many would call it, and has consistently struck out on many targets.  Lavin needs NBA talent to be successful.

I have a problem with huis recruiting.  In year 4, he has still not brought in a legit power forward, a 4 as many would call it, and has consistently struck out on many targets.

Also he has not recruited enough unicorns and there aren't enough chocolate fountains and pixies at Carnesecca.

Just curious, could you name some coaches who don't consistently strike out on the recruiting trail? Never mind. There are two types. There are elite established coaches who have their pick of recruits: Boeheim, Calimari, Schrewshrensky. Lavin is not one of the greatest coaches in the history of college basketball: how disappointed you must be. And then there are coaches who regularly recruit players no other coaches want. All other coaches recruit more players than they land and thus consistently strike out.

The amusing thing about fans like you is that you think merely being critical makes you all realistic and hard nosed, whereas you're really just disappointed fantasists. Waaa, Lavin lost a recruit. Waaa, Lavin hasn't landed a 5 star power forward. Well, he hasn't raised anyone from the dead or changed water into wine either. You might as well whinge about that. The problem isn't personnel, it's that he sucks at deploying and instructing them. So even if he had recruited a Maurice Lucas clone 5 star stud power forward he'd bench him in favor of a member of the dance squad and when he wasn't doing that he'd have him running the weave 40 feet from the basket. Because he sucks at coaching. He's the best recruiter SJ has ever had or ever will have. When he leaves this whole POS program will go swirling down the toilet. That you're disappointed by that says volumes more about you than it does about him. 

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on January 09, 2014, 07:58:24 AM

I have a problem with huis recruiting.  In year 4, he has still not brought in a legit power forward, a 4 as many would call it, and has consistently struck out on many targets.

Also he has not recruited enough unicorns and there aren't enough chocolate fountains and pixies at Carnesecca.

Just curious, could you name some coaches who don't consistently strike out on the recruiting trail? Never mind. There are two types. There are elite established coaches who have their pick of recruits: Boeheim, Calimari, Schrewshrensky. Lavin is not one of the greatest coaches in the history of college basketball: how disappointed you must be. And then there are coaches who regularly recruit players no other coaches want. All other coaches recruit more players than they land and thus consistently strike out.

The amusing thing about fans like you is that you think merely being critical makes you all realistic and hard nosed, whereas you're really just disappointed fantasists. Waaa, Lavin lost a recruit. Waaa, Lavin hasn't landed a 5 star power forward. Well, he hasn't raised anyone from the dead or changed water into wine either. You might as well whinge about that. The problem isn't personnel, it's that he sucks at deploying and instructing them. So even if he had recruited a Maurice Lucas clone 5 star stud power forward he'd bench him in favor of a member of the dance squad and when he wasn't doing that he'd have him running the weave 40 feet from the basket. Because he sucks at coaching. He's the best recruiter SJ has ever had or ever will have. When he leaves this whole POS program will go swirling down the toilet. That you're disappointed by that says volumes more about you than it does about him. 

Lavin is a great recruiter, but how would you rank Fran and Mahoney? I think you have to put Fran's two classes up against anyone and Mahoney had the best recruiting class in our history. Obviously Louie's recruiting was done during a totally different time so I would throw him out but since he retired we have had 3 solid recruiters and no good game coach. (Fran in his 2 years I didn't have a problem with personally)

Lavin is a great recruiter, but how would you rank Fran and Mahoney? I think you have to put Fran's two classes up against anyone and Mahoney had the best recruiting class in our history. Obviously Louie's recruiting was done during a totally different time so I would throw him out but since he retired we have had 3 solid recruiters and no good game coach. (Fran in his 2 years I didn't have a problem with personally)

Norm's last HS recruits were Stith, O Lawrence, and Ty Edmundson. That's where Lavin started - at a school that was lucky 3 star players - and that's what makes what he's accomplished so impressive. Obviously Mahoney and Fran brought in great players but they were riding Lou's coat tails. Mahoney landed players he and Rutledge were recruiting for years as assistants. Fran brought players he was recruiting at MU and anyway I'm pretty sure Fran's studs received $pecial considerations (although I don't have a source in the locker room.)

Quote from: we are sju on January 08, 2014, 04:36:28 PM

Quote from: jr49 on January 08, 2014, 04:25:46 PM

Quote from: Moose on January 08, 2014, 03:30:07 PM

Quote from: ras on January 08, 2014, 03:27:37 PM

In Lavins first big recruiting year ,I was not happy that he recruited Garrett. Nothing against Garrett. We had Moe,Sampson, and Dom. Thaught we needed a true PG , another true C. ,or shooter .Of course maybe Lavin knew Sampson was a long shot.

He shouldn't be immune to criticism with that first class.  The more I look back I see issues.  Anyone who wants to pretend there was nothing to pick apart from that class is blinded.

Coach should not be immune from anything but those who post here and want him to fail.. And no Moose, that certainly is not you. Coach had to have players to throw out there. Job one was fielding a team that was not a primo spot for most recruits. In fact if you could play, you were not directed here. After his second class he had some players although he was not filling needs by position. This year he needed a PG, and stay or not he got one. A real center or PF would be great. He could not get one so he settled for CO who people here were thrilled to land. I would love to have a PF like Nova has. We lost a kid to Baylor and I don't know how he's doing, but that was a blow. I guess it's easier to slam the guy then remember what he walked into. I don't know if Steve is the guy. Usually ya gotta win before getting top players. It sure makes it easier. To many guys got 30 minutes on this team who should have been playing 10. Circumstances. The thing that gets me is how quick guys here turned on him. Short memories.  Any chance Steve has of building a program here is seeing tough times through. Fans here don't seem to want any part of that even if they remember the years that came before. I don't know if Steve wants to see it through. The coach that preceded Steve was and is a fine gentleman. He had awful BE record and it went on for 6 years. He never should have been let go. Those who enjoy crying would have been set.

I don't have a problem with his recruiting at all. I also don't want him to fail. I questioned his coaching, he is a professional coach and this is a fan forum. Again the real backlash is over what he pulled Saturday. That went beyond run of the mill bad coaching into twilight zone territory.

I have a problem with huis recruiting.  In year 4, he has still not brought in a legit power forward, a 4 as many would call it, and has consistently struck out on many targets.  Lavin needs NBA talent to be successful.

Call me crazy but I consider Harkless, Sampson, and Sanchez to all be power forwards.    They are 6'8 and 200+lbs.. and clearly don't play like guards.   So to me, that makes them power forwards.