Coach lavin

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CC

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #80 on: January 22, 2014, 04:04:42 PM »

Branch is very talented. He's shown flashes of brilliance, but just about all of them were last season. To be effective, he has to be given a chance to play. Lavin pulls him after one turnover. So, okay, Steve, we have the lowest turnover margin in the conference, but we are dead last in assists. What has that accomplished?


Excellent point Posion.

CC, my argument isn't that they're great shooters.  I know those two guys aren't.  But they do have basketball skills.  They can attack the basket.  Believe it or not, not everybody can.   Dom specifically has a euro step through the lane that most players could never attempt. 
They can create extra possessions, and tip in offensive rebounds that most players can't.
Are they well rounded or perfect? no.    The talent may not be as great as initial recruiting experts made it out to be, but the talent far exceeds 0-5 in the BE and 1-9 against real competition.   

Plenty of teams have poor shooters or talent less than this and they find a way to win games.   There is real talent here CC, overwhelming talent? ehh maybe not.   But certainly .500 or better in conference play type talent.   

I still think they can get to .500 in conference, call me crazy but they are sitting on some wins.

TONYD3

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #81 on: January 22, 2014, 04:14:44 PM »
Last year we played even with Villanova . I thought we were better. Gift not playing really hurt. Why did he redshirt again? Since then we add Sanchez and Jordan . Not exactly sure what they added. Around 1 year later their coach has them in the top 5.

SJUFAN

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #82 on: January 22, 2014, 04:28:03 PM »
Here are the BE teams that we are more talented than:

Nova, Creighton, Butler, Seton Hall, Xavier, Georgetown, Providence, DePaul and Marquette.
The difference is that most of these programs have a coach with a clear POV.

Lavin doesn't know what he's going to do next. That's why I've had enough of him. I'm not interested in a let's see what the future brings attitude because he doesn't know what it will bring. If he returns, the University can go F itself. Sell tickets to some other a hole.

Its easy to simply say we have more talent, but please quantify that. Creighton has the best player in the BE but we're more talented? I don't care about comparing players 6-10. I'm looking at 1-5.

Let's look at a team that we just played and could have beaten, Providence. Do we have a better guard than Cotton? Who could shot, dribble penetrate, pass, defend, and rebound. Do we have a better big than Batts or Henton? They could defend, rebound, pass, and score. 

I think the problem is many of you struggle assessing the talent of the players on our team. I just listed three players' on Providence who preforms at least four aspects of the game very well. Who are on our team does at least two things very well? I see Jordan and that's it. If you do that simple exercise, you will discover that we have a team full of one dimensional players who do different things. We are deeper, but only five play at a time. That's how i'm looking at it which is why I believe Providence, GT, and Nova's starting five is more talented than our starting five. Creighton I think we may be better than but they has the best player in the BE so it's a push.

Convince me that we have more talent than Nova, GT, and Xavier.

We have the best shot blocker in the BE since Dikembe Mutombo. Obekpa came here with that natural talent. What else has the staff taught him? Cooley develops players. Last year, and this year, he's shown us that. Who the heck was Cotton before Providence? Who was Henton?

We have a 6'4 PG who is more talented than any guard in the conference. When opposing teams zone us, he has one answer for that zone. Dribble right through it. Since we both know that doesn't work, why doesn't Lavin try something like, oh, IDK, draw up a F'n play? The reason why Providence was able to beat us in addition to Lavin's awful substitution patterns was their ball movement. If you practice with the same group of guys over a period of time, you should have an understanding of how they play. How they like to receive the ball for example.

Lavin has had more time than Cooley to work out the kinks. No one is injured. We aren't playing with walk ons. We aren't playing with 6 or 7 new players. I understand that not every player can do it all. Fine. Then why the F are you bringing Max Hooper in to play defense on Henton? WTF is wrong with Lavin? Is he even paying attention to what he's doing? I honestly don't think he is.

Your argument has many holes in it. First off, we're discussing actual talent, not development. The fact you completely ingnored my question to quantify how our players are more talented than others I will take that as you conceeding my point. Secondly, Cotton and Batts are seniors. How then can Lavin possibly have spent more time with his players than Cooley? They were balling the first year Cooley took over the program, doubt that had anything to do with Cooley developing them. Cooley inherited them. What sophmore did Lavin inherit when he took over this program that would turn into the teams two best players when they are senoirs? none. CO blocks shots, great, can he rebound? Pass? Score? Hit and "F'N" free throw?. How are you comparing players development when Sampson, CO, and Jordan are sophmores and freshman to seniors like Cotton and Batts? When our players are seniors, then you can compare the development aspects of it, but right now we are speaking about who has more talent, and its not SJU.

goredmen

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #83 on: January 22, 2014, 05:44:22 PM »
Zach Braziller ‏@NYPost_Brazille 1m
Lavin: “I’ve been pretty consistent that this would be a team that would probably hit its stride in February,” #sjubb

Zach Braziller ‏@NYPost_Brazille 1m
Lavin: "f you follow the team, it’s pretty clear that since the Georgetown game, we’ve been really competitive and done some good things.”


Lavin just says the same stuff over and over and over again. Put up or shut up time

nudginator59

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #84 on: January 22, 2014, 07:39:49 PM »
Zach Braziller ‏@NYPost_Brazille 1m
Lavin: “I’ve been pretty consistent that this would be a team that would probably hit its stride in February,” #sjubb

Zach Braziller ‏@NYPost_Brazille 1m
Lavin: "f you follow the team, it’s pretty clear that since the Georgetown game, we’ve been really competitive and done some good things.”


Lavin just says the same stuff over and over and over again. Put up or shut up time
He  doesn't have to put up or shut up, it isn't February yet. He can keep on talking un 31 January.
Cougar O' Malley

goredmen

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #85 on: January 22, 2014, 08:20:17 PM »
Zach Braziller ‏@NYPost_Brazille 1m
Lavin: “I’ve been pretty consistent that this would be a team that would probably hit its stride in February,” #sjubb

Zach Braziller ‏@NYPost_Brazille 1m
Lavin: "f you follow the team, it’s pretty clear that since the Georgetown game, we’ve been really competitive and done some good things.”


Lavin just says the same stuff over and over and over again. Put up or shut up time
He  doesn't have to put up or shut up, it isn't February yet. He can keep on talking un 31 January.

Lets see what happens when its mid to late feb and we are looking at a 4-14 BE season. Whats he going to say then? Very rarely do teams just turn on a switch and start jelling overnight. Theres a steady improvement that preceeds a team fully coming together. I dont care what Lavin says, playing close games to inferior teams isnt showing improvement

nudginator59

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #86 on: January 22, 2014, 09:03:07 PM »
Zach Braziller ‏@NYPost_Brazille 1m
Lavin: “I’ve been pretty consistent that this would be a team that would probably hit its stride in February,” #sjubb

Zach Braziller ‏@NYPost_Brazille 1m
Lavin: "f you follow the team, it’s pretty clear that since the Georgetown game, we’ve been really competitive and done some good things.”


Lavin just says the same stuff over and over and over again. Put up or shut up time
He  doesn't have to put up or shut up, it isn't February yet. He can keep on talking un 31 January.

Lets see what happens when its mid to late feb and we are looking at a 4-14 BE season. Whats he going to say then? Very rarely do teams just turn on a switch and start jelling overnight. Theres a steady improvement that preceeds a team fully coming together. I dont care what Lavin says, playing close games to inferior teams isnt showing improvement

Being an optimist (because that's all I can be at this point) this team cannot continue chocking away games at this clip. Eventually shots and lay ups will fall and this team can go on a nice run and start contending again. Yes this means that Lavin is right and this team is oh so close to clicking. That's being an optimist of course.
Cougar O' Malley

TONYD3

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #87 on: January 22, 2014, 09:25:15 PM »
Think he will win some games . Team doesn't look all that talented . But we have more talent then most

desco80

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #88 on: January 22, 2014, 09:45:05 PM »

Branch is very talented. He's shown flashes of brilliance, but just about all of them were last season. To be effective, he has to be given a chance to play. Lavin pulls him after one turnover. So, okay, Steve, we have the lowest turnover margin in the conference, but we are dead last in assists. What has that accomplished?


Excellent point Posion.

CC, my argument isn't that they're great shooters.  I know those two guys aren't.  But they do have basketball skills.  They can attack the basket.  Believe it or not, not everybody can.   Dom specifically has a euro step through the lane that most players could never attempt. 
They can create extra possessions, and tip in offensive rebounds that most players can't.
Are they well rounded or perfect? no.    The talent may not be as great as initial recruiting experts made it out to be, but the talent far exceeds 0-5 in the BE and 1-9 against real competition.   

Plenty of teams have poor shooters or talent less than this and they find a way to win games.   There is real talent here CC, overwhelming talent? ehh maybe not.   But certainly .500 or better in conference play type talent.   

I still think they can get to .500 in conference, call me crazy but they are sitting on some wins.

I don't know, maybe it's possible.  I certainly think we could pick up a couple wins, but winning 9 of 13?   
Either way, if we got to .500 in conference or even a game away then this isn't a failure worth firing him for.   
Failure is continuing on the path we're on and finishing say 5-13 in conference

Poison

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2014, 12:14:32 AM »
Here are the BE teams that we are more talented than:

Nova, Creighton, Butler, Seton Hall, Xavier, Georgetown, Providence, DePaul and Marquette.
The difference is that most of these programs have a coach with a clear POV.

Lavin doesn't know what he's going to do next. That's why I've had enough of him. I'm not interested in a let's see what the future brings attitude because he doesn't know what it will bring. If he returns, the University can go F itself. Sell tickets to some other a hole.

Its easy to simply say we have more talent, but please quantify that. Creighton has the best player in the BE but we're more talented? I don't care about comparing players 6-10. I'm looking at 1-5.

Let's look at a team that we just played and could have beaten, Providence. Do we have a better guard than Cotton? Who could shot, dribble penetrate, pass, defend, and rebound. Do we have a better big than Batts or Henton? They could defend, rebound, pass, and score. 

I think the problem is many of you struggle assessing the talent of the players on our team. I just listed three players' on Providence who preforms at least four aspects of the game very well. Who are on our team does at least two things very well? I see Jordan and that's it. If you do that simple exercise, you will discover that we have a team full of one dimensional players who do different things. We are deeper, but only five play at a time. That's how i'm looking at it which is why I believe Providence, GT, and Nova's starting five is more talented than our starting five. Creighton I think we may be better than but they has the best player in the BE so it's a push.

Convince me that we have more talent than Nova, GT, and Xavier.

We have the best shot blocker in the BE since Dikembe Mutombo. Obekpa came here with that natural talent. What else has the staff taught him? Cooley develops players. Last year, and this year, he's shown us that. Who the heck was Cotton before Providence? Who was Henton?

We have a 6'4 PG who is more talented than any guard in the conference. When opposing teams zone us, he has one answer for that zone. Dribble right through it. Since we both know that doesn't work, why doesn't Lavin try something like, oh, IDK, draw up a F'n play? The reason why Providence was able to beat us in addition to Lavin's awful substitution patterns was their ball movement. If you practice with the same group of guys over a period of time, you should have an understanding of how they play. How they like to receive the ball for example.

Lavin has had more time than Cooley to work out the kinks. No one is injured. We aren't playing with walk ons. We aren't playing with 6 or 7 new players. I understand that not every player can do it all. Fine. Then why the F are you bringing Max Hooper in to play defense on Henton? WTF is wrong with Lavin? Is he even paying attention to what he's doing? I honestly don't think he is.

Your argument has many holes in it. First off, we're discussing actual talent, not development. The fact you completely ingnored my question to quantify how our players are more talented than others I will take that as you conceeding my point. Secondly, Cotton and Batts are seniors. How then can Lavin possibly have spent more time with his players than Cooley? They were balling the first year Cooley took over the program, doubt that had anything to do with Cooley developing them. Cooley inherited them. What sophmore did Lavin inherit when he took over this program that would turn into the teams two best players when they are senoirs? none. CO blocks shots, great, can he rebound? Pass? Score? Hit and "F'N" free throw?. How are you comparing players development when Sampson, CO, and Jordan are sophmores and freshman to seniors like Cotton and Batts? When our players are seniors, then you can compare the development aspects of it, but right now we are speaking about who has more talent, and its not SJU.

I did answer your question. I'll try to again. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a top 50 recruit who won the BE ROY is more talented than anyone in Providence's frontcourt. That's quite a few pro opinions that hold Jakarr's ability in high regard.

What I saw last week is that Providence is smarter. They run set plays. They work the ball around and they put guys in position to score. That's not talent. That's awareness and polish that comes from coaching. Good coaching.

Talent, even if it's raw talent is Sampson scoring even when he does it the wrong way. Harrison, Jordan and Sampson are spending most of their time trying to get shots for themselves. Thing is, enough of the time, they are so gifted, it works despite no set play or any sensible ball movement.

Understand now?

SJUFAN

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #90 on: January 23, 2014, 02:41:25 AM »
Here are the BE teams that we are more talented than:

Nova, Creighton, Butler, Seton Hall, Xavier, Georgetown, Providence, DePaul and Marquette.
The difference is that most of these programs have a coach with a clear POV.

Lavin doesn't know what he's going to do next. That's why I've had enough of him. I'm not interested in a let's see what the future brings attitude because he doesn't know what it will bring. If he returns, the University can go F itself. Sell tickets to some other a hole.

Its easy to simply say we have more talent, but please quantify that. Creighton has the best player in the BE but we're more talented? I don't care about comparing players 6-10. I'm looking at 1-5.

Let's look at a team that we just played and could have beaten, Providence. Do we have a better guard than Cotton? Who could shot, dribble penetrate, pass, defend, and rebound. Do we have a better big than Batts or Henton? They could defend, rebound, pass, and score. 

I think the problem is many of you struggle assessing the talent of the players on our team. I just listed three players' on Providence who preforms at least four aspects of the game very well. Who are on our team does at least two things very well? I see Jordan and that's it. If you do that simple exercise, you will discover that we have a team full of one dimensional players who do different things. We are deeper, but only five play at a time. That's how i'm looking at it which is why I believe Providence, GT, and Nova's starting five is more talented than our starting five. Creighton I think we may be better than but they has the best player in the BE so it's a push.

Convince me that we have more talent than Nova, GT, and Xavier.

We have the best shot blocker in the BE since Dikembe Mutombo. Obekpa came here with that natural talent. What else has the staff taught him? Cooley develops players. Last year, and this year, he's shown us that. Who the heck was Cotton before Providence? Who was Henton?

We have a 6'4 PG who is more talented than any guard in the conference. When opposing teams zone us, he has one answer for that zone. Dribble right through it. Since we both know that doesn't work, why doesn't Lavin try something like, oh, IDK, draw up a F'n play? The reason why Providence was able to beat us in addition to Lavin's awful substitution patterns was their ball movement. If you practice with the same group of guys over a period of time, you should have an understanding of how they play. How they like to receive the ball for example.

Lavin has had more time than Cooley to work out the kinks. No one is injured. We aren't playing with walk ons. We aren't playing with 6 or 7 new players. I understand that not every player can do it all. Fine. Then why the F are you bringing Max Hooper in to play defense on Henton? WTF is wrong with Lavin? Is he even paying attention to what he's doing? I honestly don't think he is.

Your argument has many holes in it. First off, we're discussing actual talent, not development. The fact you completely ingnored my question to quantify how our players are more talented than others I will take that as you conceeding my point. Secondly, Cotton and Batts are seniors. How then can Lavin possibly have spent more time with his players than Cooley? They were balling the first year Cooley took over the program, doubt that had anything to do with Cooley developing them. Cooley inherited them. What sophmore did Lavin inherit when he took over this program that would turn into the teams two best players when they are senoirs? none. CO blocks shots, great, can he rebound? Pass? Score? Hit and "F'N" free throw?. How are you comparing players development when Sampson, CO, and Jordan are sophmores and freshman to seniors like Cotton and Batts? When our players are seniors, then you can compare the development aspects of it, but right now we are speaking about who has more talent, and its not SJU.

I did answer your question. I'll try to again. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a top 50 recruit who won the BE ROY is more talented than anyone in Providence's frontcourt. That's quite a few pro opinions that hold Jakarr's ability in high regard.

What I saw last week is that Providence is smarter. They run set plays. They work the ball around and they put guys in position to score. That's not talent. That's awareness and polish that comes from coaching. Good coaching.

Talent, even if it's raw talent is Sampson scoring even when he does it the wrong way. Harrison, Jordan and Sampson are spending most of their time trying to get shots for themselves. Thing is, enough of the time, they are so gifted, it works despite no set play or any sensible ball movement.

Understand now?

So let me understand this, you would take Sampson over Batts because Sampson won BE rookie of the year? You think Sampson is a better rebounder, scorer, passer, defender than Batts because he won BE rookie of the year? That really make no sense. Along with this foolish notion that we don't run any plays. The irony of that statement in reference to the Providence game is that both teams ran the same exact play in overtime multiple times. The last play SJU ran for Harrison at the end of the 1st overtime, where he almost turned the ball over before he got off a prayer shot, was the same exact play Providence ran at the end of the 2nd overtime where Cotton scored and got fouled. It had nothing to do with being smarter, or better coaching, or running plays, or moving the ball, its called talent. That's what it looks like.

The more many of you speak the clearer it becomes. It baffles my mind how some can criticize coach for not doing this or that yet don't have a clue what they're looking at.     

goredmen

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #91 on: January 23, 2014, 03:27:12 AM »
Here are the BE teams that we are more talented than:

Nova, Creighton, Butler, Seton Hall, Xavier, Georgetown, Providence, DePaul and Marquette.
The difference is that most of these programs have a coach with a clear POV.

Lavin doesn't know what he's going to do next. That's why I've had enough of him. I'm not interested in a let's see what the future brings attitude because he doesn't know what it will bring. If he returns, the University can go F itself. Sell tickets to some other a hole.

Its easy to simply say we have more talent, but please quantify that. Creighton has the best player in the BE but we're more talented? I don't care about comparing players 6-10. I'm looking at 1-5.

Let's look at a team that we just played and could have beaten, Providence. Do we have a better guard than Cotton? Who could shot, dribble penetrate, pass, defend, and rebound. Do we have a better big than Batts or Henton? They could defend, rebound, pass, and score. 

I think the problem is many of you struggle assessing the talent of the players on our team. I just listed three players' on Providence who preforms at least four aspects of the game very well. Who are on our team does at least two things very well? I see Jordan and that's it. If you do that simple exercise, you will discover that we have a team full of one dimensional players who do different things. We are deeper, but only five play at a time. That's how i'm looking at it which is why I believe Providence, GT, and Nova's starting five is more talented than our starting five. Creighton I think we may be better than but they has the best player in the BE so it's a push.

Convince me that we have more talent than Nova, GT, and Xavier.

We have the best shot blocker in the BE since Dikembe Mutombo. Obekpa came here with that natural talent. What else has the staff taught him? Cooley develops players. Last year, and this year, he's shown us that. Who the heck was Cotton before Providence? Who was Henton?

We have a 6'4 PG who is more talented than any guard in the conference. When opposing teams zone us, he has one answer for that zone. Dribble right through it. Since we both know that doesn't work, why doesn't Lavin try something like, oh, IDK, draw up a F'n play? The reason why Providence was able to beat us in addition to Lavin's awful substitution patterns was their ball movement. If you practice with the same group of guys over a period of time, you should have an understanding of how they play. How they like to receive the ball for example.

Lavin has had more time than Cooley to work out the kinks. No one is injured. We aren't playing with walk ons. We aren't playing with 6 or 7 new players. I understand that not every player can do it all. Fine. Then why the F are you bringing Max Hooper in to play defense on Henton? WTF is wrong with Lavin? Is he even paying attention to what he's doing? I honestly don't think he is.

Your argument has many holes in it. First off, we're discussing actual talent, not development. The fact you completely ingnored my question to quantify how our players are more talented than others I will take that as you conceeding my point. Secondly, Cotton and Batts are seniors. How then can Lavin possibly have spent more time with his players than Cooley? They were balling the first year Cooley took over the program, doubt that had anything to do with Cooley developing them. Cooley inherited them. What sophmore did Lavin inherit when he took over this program that would turn into the teams two best players when they are senoirs? none. CO blocks shots, great, can he rebound? Pass? Score? Hit and "F'N" free throw?. How are you comparing players development when Sampson, CO, and Jordan are sophmores and freshman to seniors like Cotton and Batts? When our players are seniors, then you can compare the development aspects of it, but right now we are speaking about who has more talent, and its not SJU.

I did answer your question. I'll try to again. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a top 50 recruit who won the BE ROY is more talented than anyone in Providence's frontcourt. That's quite a few pro opinions that hold Jakarr's ability in high regard.

What I saw last week is that Providence is smarter. They run set plays. They work the ball around and they put guys in position to score. That's not talent. That's awareness and polish that comes from coaching. Good coaching.

Talent, even if it's raw talent is Sampson scoring even when he does it the wrong way. Harrison, Jordan and Sampson are spending most of their time trying to get shots for themselves. Thing is, enough of the time, they are so gifted, it works despite no set play or any sensible ball movement.

Understand now?

So let me understand this, you would take Sampson over Batts because Sampson won BE rookie of the year? You think Sampson is a better rebounder, scorer, passer, defender than Batts because he won BE rookie of the year? That really make no sense. Along with this foolish notion that we don't run any plays. The irony of that statement in reference to the Providence game is that both teams ran the same exact play in overtime multiple times. The last play SJU ran for Harrison at the end of the 1st overtime, where he almost turned the ball over before he got off a prayer shot, was the same exact play Providence ran at the end of the 2nd overtime where Cotton scored and got fouled. It had nothing to do with being smarter, or better coaching, or running plays, or moving the ball, its called talent. That's what it looks like.

The more many of you speak the clearer it becomes. It baffles my mind how some can criticize coach for not doing this or that yet don't have a clue what they're looking at.     

I don't think a simple ball screen would be considered running a play. We really don't run plays. We have the most stagnant offense I've ever seen. That's part of the reason we average so few assists. When we have the ball in half court offense we either do a stupid ball screen with a roll or pop or one guy goes one on one. Providence on the other hand either runs a set that has multiple options or they go into the flex offense. That flex beat us for a number of open looks.

Watch the Xavier game again. We cut it to 48-44 in the second half and had all the momentum. Our next two possessions were a Jordan contested three as soon as he brought the ball up and Jordan going one on one while the other for guys lined up along the baseline. Both of those were called by the bench. Both failed and Xavier pulled away

Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #92 on: January 23, 2014, 06:56:05 AM »
Here are the BE teams that we are more talented than:

Nova, Creighton, Butler, Seton Hall, Xavier, Georgetown, Providence, DePaul and Marquette.
The difference is that most of these programs have a coach with a clear POV.

Lavin doesn't know what he's going to do next. That's why I've had enough of him. I'm not interested in a let's see what the future brings attitude because he doesn't know what it will bring. If he returns, the University can go F itself. Sell tickets to some other a hole.

Its easy to simply say we have more talent, but please quantify that. Creighton has the best player in the BE but we're more talented? I don't care about comparing players 6-10. I'm looking at 1-5.

Let's look at a team that we just played and could have beaten, Providence. Do we have a better guard than Cotton? Who could shot, dribble penetrate, pass, defend, and rebound. Do we have a better big than Batts or Henton? They could defend, rebound, pass, and score. 

I think the problem is many of you struggle assessing the talent of the players on our team. I just listed three players' on Providence who preforms at least four aspects of the game very well. Who are on our team does at least two things very well? I see Jordan and that's it. If you do that simple exercise, you will discover that we have a team full of one dimensional players who do different things. We are deeper, but only five play at a time. That's how i'm looking at it which is why I believe Providence, GT, and Nova's starting five is more talented than our starting five. Creighton I think we may be better than but they has the best player in the BE so it's a push.

Convince me that we have more talent than Nova, GT, and Xavier.

We have the best shot blocker in the BE since Dikembe Mutombo. Obekpa came here with that natural talent. What else has the staff taught him? Cooley develops players. Last year, and this year, he's shown us that. Who the heck was Cotton before Providence? Who was Henton?

We have a 6'4 PG who is more talented than any guard in the conference. When opposing teams zone us, he has one answer for that zone. Dribble right through it. Since we both know that doesn't work, why doesn't Lavin try something like, oh, IDK, draw up a F'n play? The reason why Providence was able to beat us in addition to Lavin's awful substitution patterns was their ball movement. If you practice with the same group of guys over a period of time, you should have an understanding of how they play. How they like to receive the ball for example.

Lavin has had more time than Cooley to work out the kinks. No one is injured. We aren't playing with walk ons. We aren't playing with 6 or 7 new players. I understand that not every player can do it all. Fine. Then why the F are you bringing Max Hooper in to play defense on Henton? WTF is wrong with Lavin? Is he even paying attention to what he's doing? I honestly don't think he is.

Your argument has many holes in it. First off, we're discussing actual talent, not development. The fact you completely ingnored my question to quantify how our players are more talented than others I will take that as you conceeding my point. Secondly, Cotton and Batts are seniors. How then can Lavin possibly have spent more time with his players than Cooley? They were balling the first year Cooley took over the program, doubt that had anything to do with Cooley developing them. Cooley inherited them. What sophmore did Lavin inherit when he took over this program that would turn into the teams two best players when they are senoirs? none. CO blocks shots, great, can he rebound? Pass? Score? Hit and "F'N" free throw?. How are you comparing players development when Sampson, CO, and Jordan are sophmores and freshman to seniors like Cotton and Batts? When our players are seniors, then you can compare the development aspects of it, but right now we are speaking about who has more talent, and its not SJU.

I did answer your question. I'll try to again. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a top 50 recruit who won the BE ROY is more talented than anyone in Providence's frontcourt. That's quite a few pro opinions that hold Jakarr's ability in high regard.

What I saw last week is that Providence is smarter. They run set plays. They work the ball around and they put guys in position to score. That's not talent. That's awareness and polish that comes from coaching. Good coaching.

Talent, even if it's raw talent is Sampson scoring even when he does it the wrong way. Harrison, Jordan and Sampson are spending most of their time trying to get shots for themselves. Thing is, enough of the time, they are so gifted, it works despite no set play or any sensible ball movement.

Understand now?

So let me understand this, you would take Sampson over Batts because Sampson won BE rookie of the year? You think Sampson is a better rebounder, scorer, passer, defender than Batts because he won BE rookie of the year? That really make no sense. Along with this foolish notion that we don't run any plays. The irony of that statement in reference to the Providence game is that both teams ran the same exact play in overtime multiple times. The last play SJU ran for Harrison at the end of the 1st overtime, where he almost turned the ball over before he got off a prayer shot, was the same exact play Providence ran at the end of the 2nd overtime where Cotton scored and got fouled. It had nothing to do with being smarter, or better coaching, or running plays, or moving the ball, its called talent. That's what it looks like.

The more many of you speak the clearer it becomes. It baffles my mind how some can criticize coach for not doing this or that yet don't have a clue what they're looking at.     

While I think your argument that we dont have as much talent as some think holds water, I do think you are undervaluing the team we have. There is enough talent to win, that I am positive of. However, there is no way you can watch this team play every game and say that we do run good offense. I high percentage of the time it is stand and watch, maybe set a useless ball screen but no continued movement.  And you and I went over our last play against providence, just because we ran the same play as providence did for cotton ( a clear out from half court, not really a play) doesn't mean it was a good one. Harrison is not a guy that can break down a defender off the dribble from half court.
*wipes ketchup from his eyes* - I guess Heinz sight isn’t 20/20.

Poison

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #93 on: January 23, 2014, 10:36:10 AM »
Here are the BE teams that we are more talented than:

Nova, Creighton, Butler, Seton Hall, Xavier, Georgetown, Providence, DePaul and Marquette.
The difference is that most of these programs have a coach with a clear POV.

Lavin doesn't know what he's going to do next. That's why I've had enough of him. I'm not interested in a let's see what the future brings attitude because he doesn't know what it will bring. If he returns, the University can go F itself. Sell tickets to some other a hole.

Its easy to simply say we have more talent, but please quantify that. Creighton has the best player in the BE but we're more talented? I don't care about comparing players 6-10. I'm looking at 1-5.

Let's look at a team that we just played and could have beaten, Providence. Do we have a better guard than Cotton? Who could shot, dribble penetrate, pass, defend, and rebound. Do we have a better big than Batts or Henton? They could defend, rebound, pass, and score. 

I think the problem is many of you struggle assessing the talent of the players on our team. I just listed three players' on Providence who preforms at least four aspects of the game very well. Who are on our team does at least two things very well? I see Jordan and that's it. If you do that simple exercise, you will discover that we have a team full of one dimensional players who do different things. We are deeper, but only five play at a time. That's how i'm looking at it which is why I believe Providence, GT, and Nova's starting five is more talented than our starting five. Creighton I think we may be better than but they has the best player in the BE so it's a push.

Convince me that we have more talent than Nova, GT, and Xavier.

We have the best shot blocker in the BE since Dikembe Mutombo. Obekpa came here with that natural talent. What else has the staff taught him? Cooley develops players. Last year, and this year, he's shown us that. Who the heck was Cotton before Providence? Who was Henton?

We have a 6'4 PG who is more talented than any guard in the conference. When opposing teams zone us, he has one answer for that zone. Dribble right through it. Since we both know that doesn't work, why doesn't Lavin try something like, oh, IDK, draw up a F'n play? The reason why Providence was able to beat us in addition to Lavin's awful substitution patterns was their ball movement. If you practice with the same group of guys over a period of time, you should have an understanding of how they play. How they like to receive the ball for example.

Lavin has had more time than Cooley to work out the kinks. No one is injured. We aren't playing with walk ons. We aren't playing with 6 or 7 new players. I understand that not every player can do it all. Fine. Then why the F are you bringing Max Hooper in to play defense on Henton? WTF is wrong with Lavin? Is he even paying attention to what he's doing? I honestly don't think he is.

Your argument has many holes in it. First off, we're discussing actual talent, not development. The fact you completely ingnored my question to quantify how our players are more talented than others I will take that as you conceeding my point. Secondly, Cotton and Batts are seniors. How then can Lavin possibly have spent more time with his players than Cooley? They were balling the first year Cooley took over the program, doubt that had anything to do with Cooley developing them. Cooley inherited them. What sophmore did Lavin inherit when he took over this program that would turn into the teams two best players when they are senoirs? none. CO blocks shots, great, can he rebound? Pass? Score? Hit and "F'N" free throw?. How are you comparing players development when Sampson, CO, and Jordan are sophmores and freshman to seniors like Cotton and Batts? When our players are seniors, then you can compare the development aspects of it, but right now we are speaking about who has more talent, and its not SJU.

I did answer your question. I'll try to again. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a top 50 recruit who won the BE ROY is more talented than anyone in Providence's frontcourt. That's quite a few pro opinions that hold Jakarr's ability in high regard.

What I saw last week is that Providence is smarter. They run set plays. They work the ball around and they put guys in position to score. That's not talent. That's awareness and polish that comes from coaching. Good coaching.

Talent, even if it's raw talent is Sampson scoring even when he does it the wrong way. Harrison, Jordan and Sampson are spending most of their time trying to get shots for themselves. Thing is, enough of the time, they are so gifted, it works despite no set play or any sensible ball movement.

Understand now?

So let me understand this, you would take Sampson over Batts because Sampson won BE rookie of the year? You think Sampson is a better rebounder, scorer, passer, defender than Batts because he won BE rookie of the year? That really make no sense. Along with this foolish notion that we don't run any plays. The irony of that statement in reference to the Providence game is that both teams ran the same exact play in overtime multiple times. The last play SJU ran for Harrison at the end of the 1st overtime, where he almost turned the ball over before he got off a prayer shot, was the same exact play Providence ran at the end of the 2nd overtime where Cotton scored and got fouled. It had nothing to do with being smarter, or better coaching, or running plays, or moving the ball, its called talent. That's what it looks like.

The more many of you speak the clearer it becomes. It baffles my mind how some can criticize coach for not doing this or that yet don't have a clue what they're looking at.     

Sampson has been regarded by high school basketball analysts, and BE coaches to be more worthy of recognition than anyone in Providence's front court. I'm saying that all of his skills are sharper than Batts or Henton. That's my point. Sampson, with better coaching would be in position to declare for the NBA draft.

He was a better player last year. A bad coach can ruin a player's development, no matter how much talent is there. A great coach can help a player with potential realize that potential. It's not a recipe that works every time in every situation. These are all individual people, who can be motivated to work as hard as they want, and take it upon themselves to decide how much work is enough?

Felipe Lopez was more talented than Lawrence Moten as a freshman. Moten was smarter. Not more talented, smarter.

AND it's not a foolish notion that we don't run set plays. We don't run many set plays. You are correct that we run an offense with plays. It's just that we run them rarely. Harrison should be looking for an open player when he is doubled teamed late in the game. He did that once, and Sanchez missed a wide open 3 pointer. So, the next time, he took the shot himself, except he didn't have a shot.

Think about like this. One team has 5 guys who were regarded as legit NBA prospects in October in their starting line up. One team has zero. Cotton isn't a pro. Batts isn't a pro. These guys are hard workers who have learned Cooley's system.

Our system, is apparently unclear to me, and most of the "slow" people on this board. So, if you understand it so well, please take a moment and explain it me/us. Not trying to be a dic, but I've watched most of our games and I honestly have no idea what we try to do.

SJUFAN

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #94 on: January 23, 2014, 12:02:56 PM »
While I think your argument that we dont have as much talent as some think holds water, I do think you are undervaluing the team we have. There is enough talent to win, that I am positive of. However, there is no way you can watch this team play every game and say that we do run good offense. I high percentage of the time it is stand and watch, maybe set a useless ball screen but no continued movement.  And you and I went over our last play against providence, just because we ran the same play as providence did for cotton ( a clear out from half court, not really a play) doesn't mean it was a good one. Harrison is not a guy that can break down a defender off the dribble from half court.

The point I tried to make was that Providence play was a isolation play, nothing earth shattering about it, and we did the same thing. Now I agree that Harrison isn't suited for that which is why I have stated I put that lose on Lavin because Jordan should have been in there running that. I'm also not saying we run a good offense, I'm saying we do run one. But the reality about that is, if players make there shots, can pass the ball, then all offenses looks good.

I disagree that if we ran a Princeton style or Flex offense that we would be more successful. It would look better, but the players still need to be able to make a 18ft jumpshot, or pass.  Providence and there Flex offense were not getting open shots and lay ups. Also if your not a good jump shooting team, then defenses wont be susceptible to back door cuts. I think its ours players lack of skill that contributes to our offense looking bad. I do believe it will get better though, I think in time Sampson, Jordan, CO, will all get better.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 12:18:50 PM by SJUFAN »

SJUFAN

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2014, 12:17:53 PM »
Sampson has been regarded by high school basketball analysts, and BE coaches to be more worthy of recognition than anyone in Providence's front court. I'm saying that all of his skills are sharper than Batts or Henton. That's my point. Sampson, with better coaching would be in position to declare for the NBA draft.

He was a better player last year. A bad coach can ruin a player's development, no matter how much talent is there. A great coach can help a player with potential realize that potential. It's not a recipe that works every time in every situation. These are all individual people, who can be motivated to work as hard as they want, and take it upon themselves to decide how much work is enough?

Felipe Lopez was more talented than Lawrence Moten as a freshman. Moten was smarter. Not more talented, smarter.

AND it's not a foolish notion that we don't run set plays. We don't run many set plays. You are correct that we run an offense with plays. It's just that we run them rarely. Harrison should be looking for an open player when he is doubled teamed late in the game. He did that once, and Sanchez missed a wide open 3 pointer. So, the next time, he took the shot himself, except he didn't have a shot.

Think about like this. One team has 5 guys who were regarded as legit NBA prospects in October in their starting line up. One team has zero. Cotton isn't a pro. Batts isn't a pro. These guys are hard workers who have learned Cooley's system.

Our system, is apparently unclear to me, and most of the "slow" people on this board. So, if you understand it so well, please take a moment and explain it me/us. Not trying to be a dic, but I've watched most of our games and I honestly have no idea what we try to do.

I thnk Sampson is pressing, he needs to be patient and let his game develop. He wants to go to the league so bad that he's hurting himself by trying to do things he's no able to do yet. I believe we run a set play on every play. I remember Lavin saying in his first year that he was going to install a reverse motion offense that his father taught him. Now that does not look like we run that now, there is no continuity. I may be wrong, but it does appear to look more like a 3-2 motion offense. The pick and roll we do, the curl, they are basic plays out of the 3-2 offense. The thing is, and this is true with any system, that the effectiveness relies on the players within the system. Few coaches change their system to match the players, they have to fine the players to play to their system.

paultzman

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2014, 12:25:25 PM »
Sampson has been regarded by high school basketball analysts, and BE coaches to be more worthy of recognition than anyone in Providence's front court. I'm saying that all of his skills are sharper than Batts or Henton. That's my point. Sampson, with better coaching would be in position to declare for the NBA draft.

He was a better player last year. A bad coach can ruin a player's development, no matter how much talent is there. A great coach can help a player with potential realize that potential. It's not a recipe that works every time in every situation. These are all individual people, who can be motivated to work as hard as they want, and take it upon themselves to decide how much work is enough?

Felipe Lopez was more talented than Lawrence Moten as a freshman. Moten was smarter. Not more talented, smarter.

AND it's not a foolish notion that we don't run set plays. We don't run many set plays. You are correct that we run an offense with plays. It's just that we run them rarely. Harrison should be looking for an open player when he is doubled teamed late in the game. He did that once, and Sanchez missed a wide open 3 pointer. So, the next time, he took the shot himself, except he didn't have a shot.

Think about like this. One team has 5 guys who were regarded as legit NBA prospects in October in their starting line up. One team has zero. Cotton isn't a pro. Batts isn't a pro. These guys are hard workers who have learned Cooley's system.

Our system, is apparently unclear to me, and most of the "slow" people on this board. So, if you understand it so well, please take a moment and explain it me/us. Not trying to be a dic, but I've watched most of our games and I honestly have no idea what we try to do.

I thnk Sampson is pressing, he needs to be patient and let his game develop. He wants to go to the league so bad that he's hurting himself by trying to do things he's no able to do yet. I believe we run a set play on every play. I remember Lavin saying in his first year that he was going to install a reverse motion offense that his father taught him. Now that does not look like we run that now, there is no continuity. I may be wrong, but it does appear to look more like a 3-2 motion offense. The pick and roll we do, the curl, they are basic plays out of the 3-2 offense. The thing is, and this is true with any system, that the effectiveness relies on the players within the system. Few coaches change their system to match the players, they have to fine the players to play to their system.

Accepting your points about player deficiencies, can you enlighten me where Lavin could a better job of working with this group to win more games and finish better. If individual execution is the problem, is there anything Coach can do to better things? Quite honestly, too many coaches I know on a personal basis, note SL is a recruiter, not a very skilled coach and teacher. I tend to lean towards that assessment, but defer to your coaching expertise. Thanks.

Foad

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #97 on: January 23, 2014, 12:48:21 PM »
I believe we run a set play on every play.

And Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

TONYD3

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Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #98 on: January 23, 2014, 01:02:45 PM »
We don't have to run set plays. But we do have to run an offense. Non offensive players setting ball picks is just stupid. Phil Greene gets abused because he dribbles in circles, what should he do ? His teammates don't move, screen, or cut.

Re: Coach lavin
« Reply #99 on: January 23, 2014, 01:35:09 PM »
Quote
The thing is, and this is true with any system, that the effectiveness relies on the players within the system.

You are beating a dead horse with this one.

Lets give Lavin another 20 years to find his right players to play in his system because he deserves it.  I heard he has the inside edge for all top 5 players in the class of 2017 as Stevie is working his magic telling these kids he has the best staff in America to get them ready for the league and they will also have a chance to work under one of the great young coaches in America, Rico Hines, who has been groomed by none other than Stevie boy himself. I say sign Lavin to a 10 year extension before some other team (maybe even the NBA) comes in and gobbles him up.  This isn't coaches fault its the players fault coach can only do so much and the players have to execute.  Trust me they are running plays and Norm didn't do this good.  Branch is the sweetest player ever I just want him to play more.  Lavin is the 2nd best coach in St John's history behind Louie, Lavin had an unfair situation having to recruit an entire class look what Norm did.  Norm stinks Jarvis too. We never got great players like Dom Pointer, Marco Borgault and Orlando Sanchez before Lavin got here.  I think St John's is going to finish above .500 in league this year because Lavin is going to turn this around and just because I said so.  Zach Braziller is a bad writer he has no idea what he is talking about and why doesn't he name his sources.  What a bad article.  Lavin is going to have this team jelling in February just like he has been saying even if maybe he originally said January.  League games are hard and the Big East is a very difficult league.  Providence waxed Georgetown so it isn't a bad loss that we lost to Providence.  We only lost to DePaul by one.  The players have looked unbelievable in practice and the competition in practice has been unreal cant you see the major improvement this team has had since the Georgetown game.  We go 2 deep at every position and we are the youngest team in America.  Oh wait that is an excuse they made the last 2 years.  All Lavin's teams gel late so why all the panic coach is doing a great job and has the team right where he wants.