Frontcourt vs. Backcourt

The one thing he's done well this year is shoot threes (40%). He should be fighting Hooper for minutes.

You've conveniently left out turnovers and my personal fave, assist/turnover ratio.  How is he doing in that?  He also has done well in team Mvp outings, with 4.

And how is he doing defensively?  I recall reading once, I don't recall where, that the thought that Phil was a good defensive player was "laughable".  Did you happen to read the 1st post of the "Respect yo" thread.  Don't remember who started it, but it shed's some interesting light on this topic.  I've included it here for your convenience:

"Not that the pro Phil Greene camp needed more wind in it's sails following the two straight undeniable Player of the Game outings, but check out these team wide +/- totals against non-cupcake opponents only from Rumble in the Garden.  It's Mean Joe in a landslide!  I'm not used to being right.  Mrs. A claims to this day that I haven't been right once in 20+ years of marriage.  This will take some getting used to:

 http://www.nycbuckets.com/2014/01/st-johns-lineups-little-bit-everything-leads-nothing/"

 

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 30, 2014, 01:06:31 AM

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 28, 2014, 08:54:30 AM

When has ur boy been an MVP vs a good team?

This exercise was not easy as you did not provide me with what you consider to be what I consider to be the very subjective definition of "good" team.

I started by looking at nationally ranked opponents and came up with these MVP performances by my "boy":

11/18/12  Baylor  ranked #16

2/14/13   Louisville ranked #12

3/9/13   Marquette ranked #15

Then I began looking at all opponents that begin with the letter "V"...jkjk...I picked Villanova because they've been good for a long time, are well coached and are a traditional strong conference rival; and I picked Virginia because they've been a decent program in the nations best conference, it was a second round NIT game and I liked Ralph Sampson:

3/13/13  Villanova

3/24/13  Virginia

Do you see now how perception often doesn't mesh with reality?

This is fun.  You guys are making my argument for me.  Even I didn't realize what a fine player he's been for us.
 

How many of those games did we win. Going on memory alone I think None.

You mean to tell me that if we don't win, than Phil is no good?  I'm trumped...You Win...the Square sucks along with our entire team!

<hose>

Phil Greene is not very good at basketball, a sport about which you seem to know little. I can think of few things less rewarding than discussing him or it with you.

The Butler game was his best game of the season.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 30, 2014, 01:16:42 AM

<hose>

I can think of few things less rewarding than discussing him or it with you.

Ok.  Let's discuss the saxophone.

Quote from: Celtics11 on January 30, 2014, 01:14:22 AM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 30, 2014, 01:06:31 AM

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 28, 2014, 08:54:30 AM

When has ur boy been an MVP vs a good team?

This exercise was not easy as you did not provide me with what you consider to be what I consider to be the very subjective definition of "good" team.

I started by looking at nationally ranked opponents and came up with these MVP performances by my "boy":

11/18/12  Baylor  ranked #16

2/14/13   Louisville ranked #12

3/9/13   Marquette ranked #15

Then I began looking at all opponents that begin with the letter "V"...jkjk...I picked Villanova because they've been good for a long time, are well coached and are a traditional strong conference rival; and I picked Virginia because they've been a decent program in the nations best conference, it was a second round NIT game and I liked Ralph Sampson:

3/13/13  Villanova

3/24/13  Virginia

Do you see now how perception often doesn't mesh with reality?

This is fun.  You guys are making my argument for me.  Even I didn't realize what a fine player he's been for us.
 

How many of those games did we win. Going on memory alone I think None.

You mean to tell me that if we don't win, than Phil is no good?  I'm trumped...You Win...the Square sucks along with our entire team!

Carmine, even Lavin seems to be coming to the conclusion that Phil isn't any good. If even he can see that surely you can too?
Having met Carmine once, I think the problem may be that he has his beer goggles on watching Phil play. Phil is like that drunken college late night booty call. You know the girl you always call when you are in the bag, then you run into her in the daytime sober and you want to punch yourself in the face. I think the problem is Carmine has never seen Phil in the light of day sober. When that finally happens Carmine will give up the ghost.

Can we just make a Phil Greene thread for Carmine like Baldi has an Iona thread?

Phil Greene earned a D1 basketball scholarship in a major conference on a decent team.  That, by definition, makes him a pretty good basketball player.  He has managed to play significant minutes and make valuable contributions to our relative success despite being the lowest ranked of all of our recruits the year he came in.  I don't think anyone expected him to be more than an end of the bench guy when Lavin signed him.  An extra body to fill out our scholarship needs.  He has played better and contributed more than was expected.  I am neither a carmine-esque idolater nor am I a basher.  I appreciate his play and what he has given us.  He is not a point guard but he played it when we needed him to.  He gave it his all.  He doesn't deserve the bashing that he receives on these boards.

Phil Greene earned a D1 basketball scholarship in a major conference on a decent team.  That, by definition, makes him a pretty good basketball player.  He has managed to play significant minutes and make valuable contributions to our relative success despite being the lowest ranked of all of our recruits the year he came in.  I don't think anyone expected him to be more than an end of the bench guy when Lavin signed him.  An extra body to fill out our scholarship needs.  He has played better and contributed more than was expected.  I am neither a carmine-esque idolater nor am I a basher.  I appreciate his play and what he has given us.  He is not a point guard but he played it when we needed him to.  He gave it his all.  He doesn't deserve the bashing that he receives on these boards.

Same as with Geno, gets bashed becuase he is playing and more involved than he should be.

Phil Greene earned a D1 basketball scholarship in a major conference on a decent team.  That, by definition, makes him a pretty good basketball player.  He has managed to play significant minutes and make valuable contributions to our relative success despite being the lowest ranked of all of our recruits the year he came in.  I don't think anyone expected him to be more than an end of the bench guy when Lavin signed him.  An extra body to fill out our scholarship needs.  He has played better and contributed more than was expected.  I am neither a carmine-esque idolater nor am I a basher.  I appreciate his play and what he has given us.  He is not a point guard but he played it when we needed him to.  He gave it his all.  He doesn't deserve the bashing that he receives on these boards.

By the same token he doesn't deserve blinded praise.  The teams record is likely the same with or without him, no?

No blind praise.  A decent player who has given us more than I expected from him when he first signed with us.  Seems like a kid who will do whatever the coach asks of him to the best of his ability.

No blind praise.  A decent player who has given us more than I expected from him when he first signed with us.  Seems like a kid who will do whatever the coach asks of him to the best of his ability.

He is playing more, but that is more of an indictment on the coach. No other coach in America would take a single minute away from Jordan in favor of Greene. Watching him play the point was painful. Giving him credit for agreeing to play when Lavin sends him in is silly. At least the criticism of Greene is purely based on his lousy playing performance. First of all Greene has better things to do than read these boards, and I am sure he wouldn't care anyway. He is going to school for free, playing basketball and probably nailing cheerleaders. If I am him, I could care less if people point out I dribble with my head down in a circular motion.

Criticism of Harrison and of the kids that have transfered out was more personal and inappropriate.

We need a second scorer in the worst way, and for three years now we've all looked for Phil to be that guy.   He's not a terrible player by any means, but he'll never be the sweet shooting 13ppg guy that we need.    Fans need to stop holding him to an expectation that was never inline with his ability.    And coach needs to forget about playing him at pg.   That is not his position.

But at the same time this isn't intramurals.   And we shouldn't give Phil credit simply for keeping his nose clean and giving 100%.     This is a very high level of basketball, and you should be judged by your level of skill and production. 

Jordan has grown into the position and has really played well lately but he looked lost early on.  That's one reason Greene got some of his minutes.  Also, we are now hearing that there were some academic concerns surrounding Jordan.  Unfortunately, when we post, we don't really know everything that's going on behind the scenes.

 I don't think Phil is nearly as bad as he is made out on here... On more than a couple of occasions he's carried this team on offense for stretches..  He's not a point, obviously.. He's a good guard off the bench can sometimes make shots and won't turn it over.. 


" We need a second scorer in the worst way"

 ^  misconception.. We need a first scorer in the worst way. Our "first scorer" is a better second scorer..  I don't care about numbers, D-lo has struggled in games I've seen.  It happens..

I don't think Phil is nearly as bad as he is made out on here... On more than a couple of occasions he's carried this team on offense for stretches..  He's not a point, obviously.. He's a good guard off the bench can sometimes make shots and won't turn it over.. 


" We need a second scorer in the worst way"

 ^  misconception.. We need a first scorer in the worst way. Our "first scorer" is a better second scorer..  I don't care about numbers, D-lo has struggled in games I've seen.  It happens..

+1. wasju said it best, Harrison is a Robin.  We need a Batman.

I don't think Phil is nearly as bad as he is made out on here... On more than a couple of occasions he's carried this team on offense for stretches..  He's not a point, obviously.. He's a good guard off the bench can sometimes make shots and won't turn it over.. 


" We need a second scorer in the worst way"

 ^  misconception.. We need a first scorer in the worst way. Our "first scorer" is a better second scorer..  I don't care about numbers, D-lo has struggled in games I've seen.  It happens..

My favorite Greene defense:"well he is not a point guard". The problem with this of course is that he frequently plays there. That would be like defending your mailman by saying he is not really a mailman? If he drives a white truck, wears goofy short pants and hands out mail he is a mailman. Greene plays the point guard position, so it is fair to criticize his playing the point guard position.

We need a second scorer in the worst way, and for three years now we've all looked for Phil to be that guy.   He's not a terrible player by any means, but he'll never be the sweet shooting 13ppg guy that we need.    Fans need to stop holding him to an expectation that was never inline with his ability.    And coach needs to forget about playing him at pg.   That is not his position.

But at the same time this isn't intramurals.   And we shouldn't give Phil credit simply for keeping his nose clean and giving 100%.     This is a very high level of basketball, and you should be judged by your level of skill and production. 

I hate to become Carmine but, ok, let's play along.  Phil was the lowest ranked of 9 recruits.  Yet, he has consistently been our 3rd highest scorer his first two years and is currently tied with Jordan for 3rd on the team.  His level of skill (for high D1) is a C and his production has been C+/B-.  If his assist numbers were better, he would deserve a B.  Hew as asked to play the toughest position o n the court (pg) even though that is not his natural position.  You don't become a good pg over night.  Still, he handled it adequately.  Granted, he doesn't make plays but he does deserve some credit for not turning the ball over.  He has scored close to 10 pts a game his first two years and is over 8 pts per game this year.  Granted he was forced to play a lot of minutes the first two years.  This year, he is playing fewer minutes and still putting up decent numbers.  One could argue that he is playing even better this year than in the past.

Quote from: boo3 on January 30, 2014, 01:38:31 PM

I don't think Phil is nearly as bad as he is made out on here... On more than a couple of occasions he's carried this team on offense for stretches..  He's not a point, obviously.. He's a good guard off the bench can sometimes make shots and won't turn it over.. 


" We need a second scorer in the worst way"

 ^  misconception.. We need a first scorer in the worst way. Our "first scorer" is a better second scorer..  I don't care about numbers, D-lo has struggled in games I've seen.  It happens..

My favorite Greene defense:"well he is not a point guard". The problem with this of course is that he frequently plays there. That would be like defending your mailman by saying he is not really a mailman? If he drives a white truck, wears goofy short pants and hands out mail he is a mailman. Greene plays the point guard position, so it is fair to criticize his playing the point guard position.

But, wasju, if you're on a plane and the pilot dies, the flight attendant takes over and crash lands the plane, you don't complain that he didn't bring it down smoothly.  Nuri left, Branch had to sit.  Then, Branch is injured.  Phil was forced to play the point (with a hip that needed surgery).  Granted, this year, he should not be playing it anymore, now that Jordan and Branch are both available to play.

I don't think Phil is nearly as bad as he is made out on here... On more than a couple of occasions he's carried this team on offense for stretches..  He's not a point, obviously.. He's a good guard off the bench can sometimes make shots and won't turn it over.. 


" We need a second scorer in the worst way"

 ^  misconception.. We need a first scorer in the worst way. Our "first scorer" is a better second scorer..  I don't care about numbers, D-lo has struggled in games I've seen.  It happens..

Agree, boo3.  We lack a primary scorer.  First year, Moe and Dlo shared the load.  Last year, Jakarr and Dlo were 2a and 2b but we really didn't have #1.  Dlo can't do it if the defense focuses on him.  We have scoring by committee but when we need a go to guy, we don't have one.  That is why we lose games down the stretch.  Creighton has one with McD.  Providence has one with Cotton.  Cuse has Fair.  Duke has Parker.  And so on...