Butler Game 2

7 pts, 11 boards and 2 assists and perfect 5 for 5 from line.  3 turnovers compared to 5 turnovers for the player of the game and people are saying he KILLS us out there.

Sanchez is an asset as a role player for this team despite some off our fans saying he hurts the team. He is 6'9 big body that is sorely needed on this team so unless we are going to replace him with Karl Malone some of the criticism should pipe down. Bad hands-no way-losing your dribble is not bad hands it is bad ball handling-that two hand leaping catch that he turned into a great pass down low to Karr in G'town game is perfect example.

Sanchez vs. Gift is a debate that should be had at this point. I agree he's flashier, and has more raw skill, but he tends to hurt the team when he's out there. He's a turnover machine, not smart with the ball, thinks he's better than he is, thinks he can shoot, and thinks he can dribble, and has little to no awareness on defense. Put all of that together and he hurts the team. I mean sometimes he simply refuses to pass the ball to a guard after a rebound. He has more offensive skill that Gift, but he cancels it out with his completely out of control play.

Gift does not hurt the team. He knows he is not out there to score, or be a main cog. He knows his limitations. He plays better defense and does not give up easy baskets. He should get Sanchez's minutes. They are about the same when it comes to rebounding.

Quote from: desco80 on February 19, 2014, 12:50:22 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 19, 2014, 12:27:33 PM

Quote from: desco80 on February 19, 2014, 12:24:06 PM

At this point I have no patience for anyone who doesn't see the upside to playing Branch 20mins a game.   He gets in the lane and creates easy baskets.    What more do we expect from our backup pg?


And Sanchez v. Gift?    Really?    That's even a debate?
I'm glad we have an experienced big on the bench for moments like this when CO is injured.  But Gifts game is what it is.   Expecting big mins from him is not something a post-season team can afford. 

Shouldnt be a surprise with our fan base though really.  They have a bad taste in their mouth from praise being given to Sanchez and others so they scrutinize every move.  But the players with less skill and lower rankings are put on a pedestal.

Doesn't that frustrate anyone else?    I feel like we gave games away for the sake of experimenting and teaching lessons that could have been given during a chat in coach's office.

I'm not 100% sure but I think it frustrates we are sju also.

To be honest, it is what it is. What if Branch did play 20 mins a game earlier and they still lost? What if Lav went with a small rotation and they still lost? People would still find something or someone to critique and blame.

Of course they still could have lost those games, but it was the right basketball move.   Phil needing to play with, and not as, a point guard was an observation most CYO coaches would've seen.   And I'm not exaggerating when I say that.   

We played a great second half but I would still like to thank Butler for taking about 30 30 footers. Marshall had 16 pts and 7 boards at halftime and that is what he ended up with.

*I almost lost count from the shock of when Phil drove the lane.  But I was able to restart my count.

Drove to the hole 3 or 4 times yesterday.  Constantly improving and adding to his arsenal.  Respect yo!

Quote from: Moose on February 19, 2014, 12:27:33 PM

Quote from: desco80 on February 19, 2014, 12:24:06 PM

At this point I have no patience for anyone who doesn't see the upside to playing Branch 20mins a game.   He gets in the lane and creates easy baskets.    What more do we expect from our backup pg?


And Sanchez v. Gift?    Really?    That's even a debate?
I'm glad we have an experienced big on the bench for moments like this when CO is injured.  But Gifts game is what it is.   Expecting big mins from him is not something a post-season team can afford. 

Shouldnt be a surprise with our fan base though really.  They have a bad taste in their mouth from praise being given to Sanchez and others so they scrutinize every move.  But the players with less skill and lower rankings are put on a pedestal.

It's true.
 But if I take a deep breath I can let the fan base slide a little, because after all they're just fans.  We're supposed to be emotional.
But I look back and see that Branch didn't get more than 20mins until the Dartmouth game, and played just 5,8, 6, and 9 mins in losses to Syracuse, Xavier, Villanova, and Providence(OT!),  when "he-who-shall-not-be-named played 18, 23, 26, and 38 mins in those contests.     

I'm ecstatic we're winning,  but this sh*t was obvious in October.   Play Phil off the ball and shorten the rotation!   
Doesn't that frustrate anyone else?    I feel like we gave games away for the sake of experimenting and teaching lessons that could have been given during a chat in coach's office.   

Im young and have only been an every day fanatic of this team since Norms first year really. I watched during hatten and Hill but I couldnt tell you much else in terms of recruiting or who should have played more/less minutes. Since that time I think that Jamal is the best PG we have had, sans Jordan. I really think he is that good.

Quote from: Moose on February 19, 2014, 11:59:35 AM

*I almost lost count from the shock of when Phil drove the lane.  But I was able to restart my count.

Drove to the hole 3 or 4 times yesterday.  Constantly improving and adding to his arsenal.  Respect yo!

I particularly enjoyed the 1 on 3 "fastbreak" where he shot the ball off the side of the backboard.
He did commit a foul so kudos for actually trying to play D

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 19, 2014, 02:15:18 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 19, 2014, 11:59:35 AM

*I almost lost count from the shock of when Phil drove the lane.  But I was able to restart my count.

Drove to the hole 3 or 4 times yesterday.  Constantly improving and adding to his arsenal.  Respect yo!

I particularly enjoyed the 1 on 3 "fastbreak" where he shot the ball off the side of the backboard.
He did commit a foul so kudos for actually trying to play D

Not longing to engage in a 500 post discussion, but forget offense, On D Phill gets beat so easily off the dribble. Others on team equally guilty, but, between never getting through screens and his man always flying by him, he is such a negative on D.

Quote from: desco80 on February 19, 2014, 12:50:22 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 19, 2014, 12:27:33 PM

Quote from: desco80 on February 19, 2014, 12:24:06 PM

At this point I have no patience for anyone who doesn't see the upside to playing Branch 20mins a game.   He gets in the lane and creates easy baskets.    What more do we expect from our backup pg?


And Sanchez v. Gift?    Really?    That's even a debate?
I'm glad we have an experienced big on the bench for moments like this when CO is injured.  But Gifts game is what it is.   Expecting big mins from him is not something a post-season team can afford. 

Shouldnt be a surprise with our fan base though really.  They have a bad taste in their mouth from praise being given to Sanchez and others so they scrutinize every move.  But the players with less skill and lower rankings are put on a pedestal.

It's true.
 But if I take a deep breath I can let the fan base slide a little, because after all they're just fans.  We're supposed to be emotional.
But I look back and see that Branch didn't get more than 20mins until the Dartmouth game, and played just 5,8, 6, and 9 mins in losses to Syracuse, Xavier, Villanova, and Providence(OT!),  when "he-who-shall-not-be-named played 18, 23, 26, and 38 mins in those contests.     

I'm ecstatic we're winning,  but this sh*t was obvious in October.   Play Phil off the ball and shorten the rotation!   
Doesn't that frustrate anyone else?    I feel like we gave games away for the sake of experimenting and teaching lessons that could have been given during a chat in coach's office.   

Im young and have only been an every day fanatic of this team since Norms first year really. I watched during hatten and Hill but I couldnt tell you much else in terms of recruiting or who should have played more/less minutes. Since that time I think that Jamal is the best PG we have had, sans Jordan. I really think he is that good.

I agree Mase.   I love Jordan, and he is our starting PG, no doubt.  But he's also an elite scorer, and I love when he's on the floor with Branch and D'angelo.    I

Quote from: we are sju on February 19, 2014, 02:23:16 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 19, 2014, 02:15:18 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 19, 2014, 11:59:35 AM

*I almost lost count from the shock of when Phil drove the lane.  But I was able to restart my count.

Drove to the hole 3 or 4 times yesterday.  Constantly improving and adding to his arsenal.  Respect yo!

I particularly enjoyed the 1 on 3 "fastbreak" where he shot the ball off the side of the backboard.
He did commit a foul so kudos for actually trying to play D

Not longing to engage in a 500 post discussion, but forget offense, On D Phill gets beat so easily off the dribble. Others on team equally guilty, but, between never getting through screens and his man always flying by him, he is such a negative on D.

It is funny but ever since Carmine busted out that ridiculous foul stat I find myself watching Greene closely on D and he gives his man like 3 feet. He never gets close enough to touch his man. Even when his man is shooting a three, he is like 2 feet away from his man when he goes to "contest" the shot.

Sanchez vs. Gift is a debate that should be had at this point. I agree he's flashier, and has more raw skill, but he tends to hurt the team when he's out there. He's a turnover machine, not smart with the ball, thinks he's better than he is, thinks he can shoot, and thinks he can dribble, and has little to no awareness on defense. Put all of that together and he hurts the team. I mean sometimes he simply refuses to pass the ball to a guard after a rebound. He has more offensive skill that Gift, but he cancels it out with his completely out of control play.

Gift does not hurt the team. He knows he is not out there to score, or be a main cog. He knows his limitations. He plays better defense and does not give up easy baskets. He should get Sanchez's minutes. They are about the same when it comes to rebounding.

Think your being a bit harsh on Sanchez. His biggest problem has been his defensive awareness like you stated but Gift is Dom 2.0 on the offensive end. Sanchez presence changes the way teams play us on defense. I rather him in the low post but if he is at the three point line defenses have to account for him. If the other teams are playing man that opens up driving lanes for our guards.

Quote from: Amaseinyourface2 on February 19, 2014, 02:22:27 PM

Quote from: desco80 on February 19, 2014, 12:50:22 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 19, 2014, 12:27:33 PM

Quote from: desco80 on February 19, 2014, 12:24:06 PM

At this point I have no patience for anyone who doesn't see the upside to playing Branch 20mins a game.   He gets in the lane and creates easy baskets.    What more do we expect from our backup pg?


And Sanchez v. Gift?    Really?    That's even a debate?
I'm glad we have an experienced big on the bench for moments like this when CO is injured.  But Gifts game is what it is.   Expecting big mins from him is not something a post-season team can afford. 

Shouldnt be a surprise with our fan base though really.  They have a bad taste in their mouth from praise being given to Sanchez and others so they scrutinize every move.  But the players with less skill and lower rankings are put on a pedestal.

It's true.
 But if I take a deep breath I can let the fan base slide a little, because after all they're just fans.  We're supposed to be emotional.
But I look back and see that Branch didn't get more than 20mins until the Dartmouth game, and played just 5,8, 6, and 9 mins in losses to Syracuse, Xavier, Villanova, and Providence(OT!),  when "he-who-shall-not-be-named played 18, 23, 26, and 38 mins in those contests.     

I'm ecstatic we're winning,  but this sh*t was obvious in October.   Play Phil off the ball and shorten the rotation!   
Doesn't that frustrate anyone else?    I feel like we gave games away for the sake of experimenting and teaching lessons that could have been given during a chat in coach's office.   

Im young and have only been an every day fanatic of this team since Norms first year really. I watched during hatten and Hill but I couldnt tell you much else in terms of recruiting or who should have played more/less minutes. Since that time I think that Jamal is the best PG we have had, sans Jordan. I really think he is that good.

I agree Mase.   I love Jordan, and he is our starting PG, no doubt.  But he's also an elite scorer, and I love when he's on the floor with Branch and D'angelo.    I

Kudos for Branch from the astute JPM114 followed by full blog;

             " For the game, St. John's turned that three point deficit into a lead that stretched to 29. For the team it was their 9th win in 10 tries. And for Sampson, he not only scored a career high 23 points but helped St. John's defense hold Marshall scoreless and without a rebound for the entire second half. And while the improved energy and urgency was key to the win, so was the calming influence of guard Jamal Branch was also essential.  The numbers will say 10 points and 5 assists but his poise, which shows in the box score in the form of just one turnover combined with his ability to get Samson touches provided a needed offensive spark."
           

http://newyorkbasketball.blogspot.com/2014/02/sampson-and-st-johns-use-strong-2nd.html

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 18, 2014, 10:59:42 PM

Might be time to end the Sanchez experiment and have him swap minutes with God's Gift.

Sanchez didn't have the best game but did have 7pts, 11 rebounds and a couple of assists in 26 mins. That's not that bad IMO.

He's out of control. Jumps up in the air with ball, then tries to figure out what he's going to do with it. On D he turns the wrong way. When he gets between his man and the basket, he tries hard. He's replacing a center, not a wing. Staff will do their best to get him fixed. Guards can't get taken off the dribble. If that happens the whole team ends up in foul trouble.

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on February 19, 2014, 12:56:54 AM

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 18, 2014, 10:59:42 PM

Might be time to end the Sanchez experiment and have him swap minutes with God's Gift.

Sanchez didn't have the best game but did have 7pts, 11 rebounds and a couple of assists in 26 mins. That's not that bad IMO.

He's out of control. Jumps up in the air with ball, then tries to figure out what he's going to do with it. On D he turns the wrong way. When he gets between his man and the basket, he tries hard. He's replacing a center, not a wing. Staff will do their best to get him fixed. Guards can't get taken off the dribble. If that happens the whole team ends up in foul trouble.

Jumps in the air with the ball? Karr and Dom do that too.
As fans if you criticize you need to see it in all players not with blinders on.

I'm not sure why but I appreciate more what each kid brings rather than focusing just on what they did wrong.  This team is playing incredible ball right now.  Each kid is a contributor on some level, whether it be an end of the bench kid who comes in at garbage time or a walk-on who helps the team get better at practice.  We are on an incredible run, yet we are still discussing what the coach could have done earlier in the year, or how far Phil plays off his man.  You guys are ridiculous.  Enjoy the wins and stop knocking the kids.  They all add value to the TEAM.

I'm not sure why but I appreciate more what each kid brings rather than focusing just on what they did wrong.  This team is playing incredible ball right now.  Each kid is a contributor on some level, whether it be an end of the bench kid who comes in at garbage time or a walk-on who helps the team get better at practice.  We are on an incredible run, yet we are still discussing what the coach could have done earlier in the year, or how far Phil plays off his man.  You guys are ridiculous.  Enjoy the wins and stop knocking the kids.  They all add value to the TEAM.

Yes sir

I'm not sure why but I appreciate more what each kid brings rather than focusing just on what they did wrong.  This team is playing incredible ball right now.  Each kid is a contributor on some level, whether it be an end of the bench kid who comes in at garbage time or a walk-on who helps the team get better at practice.  We are on an incredible run, yet we are still discussing what the coach could have done earlier in the year, or how far Phil plays off his man.  You guys are ridiculous.  Enjoy the wins and stop knocking the kids.  They all add value to the TEAM.

It's a sports forum, relax and accept opinions are part of the process. 

Quote from: simplyred on February 19, 2014, 03:25:29 PM

I'm not sure why but I appreciate more what each kid brings rather than focusing just on what they did wrong.  This team is playing incredible ball right now.  Each kid is a contributor on some level, whether it be an end of the bench kid who comes in at garbage time or a walk-on who helps the team get better at practice.  We are on an incredible run, yet we are still discussing what the coach could have done earlier in the year, or how far Phil plays off his man.  You guys are ridiculous.  Enjoy the wins and stop knocking the kids.  They all add value to the TEAM.

It's a sports forum, relax and accept opinions are part of the process. 

So does this mean we're not all going to hold hands during the next game singing Kumbaya during timeouts?

I'm not sure why but I appreciate more what each kid brings rather than focusing just on what they did wrong.  This team is playing incredible ball right now.  Each kid is a contributor on some level, whether it be an end of the bench kid who comes in at garbage time or a walk-on who helps the team get better at practice.  We are on an incredible run, yet we are still discussing what the coach could have done earlier in the year, or how far Phil plays off his man.  You guys are ridiculous.  Enjoy the wins and stop knocking the kids.  They all add value to the TEAM.

It is a fan forum not a circle jerk. Saying Phil Greene doesn't play defense is more than acceptable. If you want to get into what some posters have posted about our best player or some of the kids that have left than you might have a point.

As far as Lavin, he is a professional coach. The turnaround has been amazing. MOST teams would have folded after the start they had. Lavin gets the credit for that. Of course if he would have done a better job in the beginning we would be playing for seeding right now and not playing our way off the bubble!   

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 19, 2014, 01:27:13 PM

Sanchez vs. Gift is a debate that should be had at this point. I agree he's flashier, and has more raw skill, but he tends to hurt the team when he's out there. He's a turnover machine, not smart with the ball, thinks he's better than he is, thinks he can shoot, and thinks he can dribble, and has little to no awareness on defense. Put all of that together and he hurts the team. I mean sometimes he simply refuses to pass the ball to a guard after a rebound. He has more offensive skill that Gift, but he cancels it out with his completely out of control play.

Gift does not hurt the team. He knows he is not out there to score, or be a main cog. He knows his limitations. He plays better defense and does not give up easy baskets. He should get Sanchez's minutes. They are about the same when it comes to rebounding.

Think your being a bit harsh on Sanchez. His biggest problem has been his defensive awareness like you stated but Gift is Dom 2.0 on the offensive end. Sanchez presence changes the way teams play us on defense. I rather him in the low post but if he is at the three point line defenses have to account for him. If the other teams are playing man that opens up driving lanes for our guards.

I disagree. Gift would come pretty close to putting up Sanchez numbers if given the same amount of minutes. And I haven't seen a whole lot of reason to defend Sanchez at the 3 pt line. Most of his 3pt attempts are wide open and he's shooting 25%.