Are You Ready to Move on?

I was for defiantly giving Lavin  one more year...I don't know now. I am hoping all the silence going in is because of the final 4 and March madness. Just looking for some stability and positive traction at this point....And a new School President.

Quote from: redstorm212 on April 01, 2014, 09:29:38 PM

Quote from: goredmen on April 01, 2014, 09:24:55 PM

In Lavin's 4 years he has only had 1 successful season. Now that wouldn't necessarily be grounds for dismissal here but things are looking down not up. We have two frontcourt players for next year and one of them might be leaving. Christian Jones and Felix Balamou are the only players on the current roster that will be on the team for the 15-16 season. That's not how you build a winning program

That's a lot of assuming your doing there. You're assuming no Obekpa, no Jordan.

Not many schools unless they are young would have current rosters that would look much better than that looking 2 years into the future.

I think assuming that both Obekpa and Jordan will be gone by the 15-16 season is a very fair assumption. If we had to bet I'd say 90% of us would bet that they would both be gone by then. I could be wrong but I just can't see either one of them lasting more than one more year here

I disagree. I think most schools in our position within the college basketball landscape would at least have a couple guys that will make up the core of their 15-16 team in place by now. Obviously the Kentuckys and Kansases of the world may not but they just reload with 5 star recruits every year so they don't have to

We are in good shape for big time freshman in '15 and Lavin has to bring in some bodies for '14 whether it be JUCO's or Delarosa. Not to mention the possibility of transfers as we will hae plenty of frontcourt PT available. So it's not as bleak a picture as many are making it out to be.

Was ready to fire him after going 0-5. He then ended big east on 10-3 run. As un- popular as this is I think we should keep him another season. 22-11 isn't a bad season. Team was playing well down the stretch. The guy made some stupid mistakes that cost us a tournament berth. Think assistants finally spoke up or he realized he was being an idiot. Not happy with the way the season ended but if we got a few more breaks we would have been in the tournamnent.
   

Problem is, it might not have been bad this past season, but it will be next year.  I don't see anybody on our recruiting radar, and even our roster is made up of extremely marginal high D1 talent outside of Jordan, Harrison and Obekpa.  Where are we realistically looking to get to from here, realizing that our cupboard is bare, and I mean absolutely bare?  How did this happen?

Even our returning roster is full of seniors like Sir'Dom, Harrison and Greene, all of whom we have no replacement for.  If we don't lose Jordan and Obekpa now, we will after next season. 

This is why this 14' class was actually a very, very important class to fill with quality players, even if we continue to recruit for 15'-16'.  We could not afford to miss out on talent in this class.   Now there is only marginal talent on the boards if any at all.  Most kids know where they are going to play next season.  We need to fill half a team worth of ships. 

Imo, we are at Defcon 2 right now in terms of program implosion, after some promising years where it looked like we would take off.  Like I said, I don't know what miracles Lavin has planned, but he better have something.  Fans will not come to games at all next season if we have this roster with a few more low level, last minute recruits coming in. 

Quote from: goredmen on April 01, 2014, 09:47:46 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on April 01, 2014, 09:29:38 PM

Quote from: goredmen on April 01, 2014, 09:24:55 PM

In Lavin's 4 years he has only had 1 successful season. Now that wouldn't necessarily be grounds for dismissal here but things are looking down not up. We have two frontcourt players for next year and one of them might be leaving. Christian Jones and Felix Balamou are the only players on the current roster that will be on the team for the 15-16 season. That's not how you build a winning program

That's a lot of assuming your doing there. You're assuming no Obekpa, no Jordan.

Not many schools unless they are young would have current rosters that would look much better than that looking 2 years into the future.

I think assuming that both Obekpa and Jordan will be gone by the 15-16 season is a very fair assumption. If we had to bet I'd say 90% of us would bet that they would both be gone by then. I could be wrong but I just can't see either one of them lasting more than one more year here

I disagree. I think most schools in our position within the college basketball landscape would at least have a couple guys that will make up the core of their 15-16 team in place by now. Obviously the Kentuckys and Kansases of the world may not but they just reload with 5 star recruits every year so they don't have to

We are in good shape for big time freshman in '15 and Lavin has to bring in some bodies for '14 whether it be JUCO's or Delarosa. Not to mention the possibility of transfers as we will hae plenty of frontcourt PT available. So it's not as bleak a picture as many are making it out to be.

That's a lot of assumptions you are making there

I think i'm 50/50 on Lavin.  He's certainly recruited a higher level of talent and increased the level of athleticism on the team.  Having said that minus the year he had Dunlap and the leftovers from Norm he and his staff haven't developed the players they have recruited.  Kids are hard to deal with and they all probably think they are the best recruit but that is what the coaches are there for...they teach, develop and correct the guys and make sure they are solid student-athletes.  My criticism is the lack of development and improvement players have shown and the overall bad basketball IQ they show.  He's brought talent to St. John's but he hasn't coached creatively to use that talent and certainly he hasn't developed them....at this point I may have had enough of Lavin but I'm ok with him coming back for another year to see what he can do.  I just really don't like the drama and what i am perceiving to be a lack of strategy with the roster. 

Now there is only marginal talent on the boards if any at all.   

I have to disagree, there are plenty of talented kids available. They may not be highly ranked, but doesn't mean they are not there. Its up to the staff to find them. I for one am looking forward to seeing who they bring in. We got the ranked kids, D'lo, Sampson, Garrett, Dom, Branch, Obekpa. Where did that get us? You can't tell me that you haven't seen players on other teams that are better than ours, yet they weren't ranked out of HS. The talent is there, the athleticism may not be, but we need ball players and senior leadership. That's what I'm looking forward to getting out of the 14' class. We need ballplayers that will stay all four years and augment that with a couple of studs.

Quote from: MCNPA on April 01, 2014, 10:20:18 PM

Now there is only marginal talent on the boards if any at all.   

I have to disagree, there are plenty of talented kids available. They may not be highly ranked, but doesn't mean they are not there. Its up to the staff to find them. I for one am looking forward to seeing who they bring in. We got the ranked kids, D'lo, Sampson, Garrett, Dom, Branch, Obekpa. Where did that get us? You can't tell me that you haven't seen players on other teams that are better than ours, yet they weren't ranked out of HS. The talent is there, the athleticism may not be, but we need ball players and senior leadership. That's what I'm looking forward to getting out of the 14' class. We need ballplayers that will stay all four years and augment that with a couple of studs.

Maybe the staff playing guys out of position and not being the best at developing them is partially responsible for other team's unranked players playing better than our highly recruited players?

Quote from: redstorm212 on April 01, 2014, 10:15:23 PM

Quote from: goredmen on April 01, 2014, 09:47:46 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on April 01, 2014, 09:29:38 PM

Quote from: goredmen on April 01, 2014, 09:24:55 PM

In Lavin's 4 years he has only had 1 successful season. Now that wouldn't necessarily be grounds for dismissal here but things are looking down not up. We have two frontcourt players for next year and one of them might be leaving. Christian Jones and Felix Balamou are the only players on the current roster that will be on the team for the 15-16 season. That's not how you build a winning program

That's a lot of assuming your doing there. You're assuming no Obekpa, no Jordan.

Not many schools unless they are young would have current rosters that would look much better than that looking 2 years into the future.

I think assuming that both Obekpa and Jordan will be gone by the 15-16 season is a very fair assumption. If we had to bet I'd say 90% of us would bet that they would both be gone by then. I could be wrong but I just can't see either one of them lasting more than one more year here

I disagree. I think most schools in our position within the college basketball landscape would at least have a couple guys that will make up the core of their 15-16 team in place by now. Obviously the Kentuckys and Kansases of the world may not but they just reload with 5 star recruits every year so they don't have to

We are in good shape for big time freshman in '15 and Lavin has to bring in some bodies for '14 whether it be JUCO's or Delarosa. Not to mention the possibility of transfers as we will hae plenty of frontcourt PT available. So it's not as bleak a picture as many are making it out to be.

That's a lot of assumptions you are making there

Not really. It's all pretty much true. We are in good shape for '15. Lavin does have to bring in bodies for 14, and there are possibilities for transfer next season and beyond. So really no assuming at all. I made it clear it was a projection. Your post was written as though it was a fact Obekpa and Jordan were gone, and stating  that only two players on our current roster will be here in 2 seasons is pretty meaningless, which was the point of my last post. A lot can happen.

We are in good shape for big time freshman in '15 and Lavin has to bring in some bodies for '14 whether it be JUCO's or Delarosa. Not to mention the possibility of transfers as we will hae plenty of frontcourt PT available. So it's not as bleak a picture as many are making it out to be.

Hey 212
Who are these "big time freshmen in '15" you claim that SJU is in good shape with?

Quote from: redstorm212 on April 01, 2014, 10:15:23 PM

We are in good shape for big time freshman in '15 and Lavin has to bring in some bodies for '14 whether it be JUCO's or Delarosa. Not to mention the possibility of transfers as we will hae plenty of frontcourt PT available. So it's not as bleak a picture as many are making it out to be.

Hey 212
Who are these "big time freshmen in '15" you claim that SJU is in good shape with?

Diallo, Briscoe are the big ones.

Quote from: goredmen on April 01, 2014, 10:33:45 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on April 01, 2014, 10:15:23 PM

Quote from: goredmen on April 01, 2014, 09:47:46 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on April 01, 2014, 09:29:38 PM

Quote from: goredmen on April 01, 2014, 09:24:55 PM

In Lavin's 4 years he has only had 1 successful season. Now that wouldn't necessarily be grounds for dismissal here but things are looking down not up. We have two frontcourt players for next year and one of them might be leaving. Christian Jones and Felix Balamou are the only players on the current roster that will be on the team for the 15-16 season. That's not how you build a winning program

That's a lot of assuming your doing there. You're assuming no Obekpa, no Jordan.

Not many schools unless they are young would have current rosters that would look much better than that looking 2 years into the future.

I think assuming that both Obekpa and Jordan will be gone by the 15-16 season is a very fair assumption. If we had to bet I'd say 90% of us would bet that they would both be gone by then. I could be wrong but I just can't see either one of them lasting more than one more year here

I disagree. I think most schools in our position within the college basketball landscape would at least have a couple guys that will make up the core of their 15-16 team in place by now. Obviously the Kentuckys and Kansases of the world may not but they just reload with 5 star recruits every year so they don't have to

We are in good shape for big time freshman in '15 and Lavin has to bring in some bodies for '14 whether it be JUCO's or Delarosa. Not to mention the possibility of transfers as we will hae plenty of frontcourt PT available. So it's not as bleak a picture as many are making it out to be.

That's a lot of assumptions you are making there

Not really. It's all pretty much true. We are in good shape for '15. Lavin does have to bring in bodies for 14, and there are possibilities for transfer next season and beyond. So really no assuming at all. I made it clear it was a projection. Your post was written as though it was a fact Obekpa and Jordan were gone, and stating  that only two players on our current roster will be here in 2 seasons is pretty meaningless, which was the point of my last post. A lot can happen.

You're right a lot can happen, including Lavin bringing in nobody of significance this offseason and striking out on the big 15 guys

Quote from: wxyz on April 01, 2014, 10:53:38 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on April 01, 2014, 10:15:23 PM

We are in good shape for big time freshman in '15 and Lavin has to bring in some bodies for '14 whether it be JUCO's or Delarosa. Not to mention the possibility of transfers as we will hae plenty of frontcourt PT available. So it's not as bleak a picture as many are making it out to be.

Hey 212
Who are these "big time freshmen in '15" you claim that SJU is in good shape with?

Diallo, Briscoe are the big ones.

I hate to break it to you but neither Diallo or Brisco are coming to SJU.
Diallo is headed to Pittsburgh.
Brisco is headed to to Arizona or Rutgers.

Quote from: goredmen on April 01, 2014, 09:47:46 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on April 01, 2014, 09:29:38 PM

Quote from: goredmen on April 01, 2014, 09:24:55 PM

In Lavin's 4 years he has only had 1 successful season. Now that wouldn't necessarily be grounds for dismissal here but things are looking down not up. We have two frontcourt players for next year and one of them might be leaving. Christian Jones and Felix Balamou are the only players on the current roster that will be on the team for the 15-16 season. That's not how you build a winning program

That's a lot of assuming your doing there. You're assuming no Obekpa, no Jordan.

Not many schools unless they are young would have current rosters that would look much better than that looking 2 years into the future.

I think assuming that both Obekpa and Jordan will be gone by the 15-16 season is a very fair assumption. If we had to bet I'd say 90% of us would bet that they would both be gone by then. I could be wrong but I just can't see either one of them lasting more than one more year here

I disagree. I think most schools in our position within the college basketball landscape would at least have a couple guys that will make up the core of their 15-16 team in place by now. Obviously the Kentuckys and Kansases of the world may not but they just reload with 5 star recruits every year so they don't have to

We are in good shape for big time freshman in '15 and Lavin has to bring in some bodies for '14 whether it be JUCO's or Delarosa. Not to mention the possibility of transfers as we will hae plenty of frontcourt PT available. So it's not as bleak a picture as many are making it out to be.

What makes you say we are in good shape for 15, I see no evidence of that. And even if we are, Sheed will likely be gone along w the seniors and we are again the youngest team in America. Even if we get some good transfers, they will probably have to sit out next year. Although that would help give exp to the 15 class. Nevertheless next year does not look pretty if CO also departs.

Quote from: redstorm212 on April 01, 2014, 10:59:17 PM

Quote from: wxyz on April 01, 2014, 10:53:38 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on April 01, 2014, 10:15:23 PM

We are in good shape for big time freshman in '15 and Lavin has to bring in some bodies for '14 whether it be JUCO's or Delarosa. Not to mention the possibility of transfers as we will hae plenty of frontcourt PT available. So it's not as bleak a picture as many are making it out to be.

Hey 212
Who are these "big time freshmen in '15" you claim that SJU is in good shape with?

Diallo, Briscoe are the big ones.

I hate to break it to you but neither Diallo or Brisco are coming to SJU.
Diallo is headed to Pittsburgh.
Brisco is headed to to Arizona or Rutgers.

When did they commit? Must've missed it.

Quote from: SJUFAN on April 01, 2014, 10:43:58 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on April 01, 2014, 10:20:18 PM

Now there is only marginal talent on the boards if any at all.   

I have to disagree, there are plenty of talented kids available. They may not be highly ranked, but doesn't mean they are not there. Its up to the staff to find them. I for one am looking forward to seeing who they bring in. We got the ranked kids, D'lo, Sampson, Garrett, Dom, Branch, Obekpa. Where did that get us? You can't tell me that you haven't seen players on other teams that are better than ours, yet they weren't ranked out of HS. The talent is there, the athleticism may not be, but we need ball players and senior leadership. That's what I'm looking forward to getting out of the 14' class. We need ballplayers that will stay all four years and augment that with a couple of studs.

Maybe the staff playing guys out of position and not being the best at developing them is partially responsible for other team's unranked players playing better than our highly recruited players?

Where is this "not good at developing" theme coming from? Not every kid is going to become the player you hoped he would be, that doesn't mean the staff is bad at developing. Dom is the only player who you could say you hoped would have developed more. I've seen noticeable improvement out of Sampson and Obekpa from freshman to sophomore years.

Quote from: MCNPA on April 01, 2014, 10:20:18 PM

Now there is only marginal talent on the boards if any at all.   

I have to disagree, there are plenty of talented kids available. They may not be highly ranked, but doesn't mean they are not there. Its up to the staff to find them. I for one am looking forward to seeing who they bring in. We got the ranked kids, D'lo, Sampson, Garrett, Dom, Branch, Obekpa. Where did that get us? You can't tell me that you haven't seen players on other teams that are better than ours, yet they weren't ranked out of HS. The talent is there, the athleticism may not be, but we need ball players and senior leadership. That's what I'm looking forward to getting out of the 14' class. We need ballplayers that will stay all four years and augment that with a couple of studs.

No, there aren't plenty of talented kids available.  The big dogs got their fill, so did the rest of the major D1 schools.  Then the mid and low major schools picked up much of the rest.  There WERE plenty of talented kids available.  What is available is a few holdouts that wanted to wait til spring, but none of them have SJU on their lists.  After that we have to comb the country for that gem that all the major D1 schools missed, and the mid-majors missed as well. 

Quote from: SJUFAN on April 01, 2014, 10:43:58 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on April 01, 2014, 10:20:18 PM

Now there is only marginal talent on the boards if any at all.   

I have to disagree, there are plenty of talented kids available. They may not be highly ranked, but doesn't mean they are not there. Its up to the staff to find them. I for one am looking forward to seeing who they bring in. We got the ranked kids, D'lo, Sampson, Garrett, Dom, Branch, Obekpa. Where did that get us? You can't tell me that you haven't seen players on other teams that are better than ours, yet they weren't ranked out of HS. The talent is there, the athleticism may not be, but we need ball players and senior leadership. That's what I'm looking forward to getting out of the 14' class. We need ballplayers that will stay all four years and augment that with a couple of studs.

No, there aren't plenty of talented kids available.  The big dogs got their fill, so did the rest of the major D1 schools.  Then the mid and low major schools picked up much of the rest.  There WERE plenty of talented kids available.  What is available is a few holdouts that wanted to wait til spring, but none of them have SJU on their lists.  After that we have to comb the country for that gem that all the major D1 schools missed, and the mid-majors missed as well. 

How do you know how many kids in the top 200 who have yet to sign we are not in on? Don't worry about lists. 

Quote from: goredmen on April 01, 2014, 10:49:57 PM

Quote from: SJUFAN on April 01, 2014, 10:43:58 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on April 01, 2014, 10:20:18 PM

Now there is only marginal talent on the boards if any at all.   

I have to disagree, there are plenty of talented kids available. They may not be highly ranked, but doesn't mean they are not there. Its up to the staff to find them. I for one am looking forward to seeing who they bring in. We got the ranked kids, D'lo, Sampson, Garrett, Dom, Branch, Obekpa. Where did that get us? You can't tell me that you haven't seen players on other teams that are better than ours, yet they weren't ranked out of HS. The talent is there, the athleticism may not be, but we need ball players and senior leadership. That's what I'm looking forward to getting out of the 14' class. We need ballplayers that will stay all four years and augment that with a couple of studs.

Maybe the staff playing guys out of position and not being the best at developing them is partially responsible for other team's unranked players playing better than our highly recruited players?

Where is this "not good at developing" theme coming from? Not every kid is going to become the player you hoped he would be, that doesn't mean the staff is bad at developing. Dom is the only player who you could say you hoped would have developed more. I've seen noticeable improvement out of Sampson and Obekpa from freshman to sophomore years.

You said in your previous post that "you can't tell me that you haven't seen players on other teams that are better than ours, yet they weren't ranked out of HS." So that means other team's players have developed better than ours, no? It just happened to be a coincidence that all of the players that recruiting services wound up overrating ended up here?

Let's look at Dwayne Polee as an example. He came in similar to Lavin's other guys in terms of being super athletic but very raw when it came to basketball skills. He went to SDSU and they have made a basketball player out of him when Lav and co never made Dom or Amir basketball players. Don't kid yourself into thinking that's just a coincidence and that Polee would have been as good for us as he was for SDSU if he never left here

Quote from: SJUFAN on April 01, 2014, 11:36:16 PM

Quote from: goredmen on April 01, 2014, 10:49:57 PM

Quote from: SJUFAN on April 01, 2014, 10:43:58 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on April 01, 2014, 10:20:18 PM

Now there is only marginal talent on the boards if any at all.   

I have to disagree, there are plenty of talented kids available. They may not be highly ranked, but doesn't mean they are not there. Its up to the staff to find them. I for one am looking forward to seeing who they bring in. We got the ranked kids, D'lo, Sampson, Garrett, Dom, Branch, Obekpa. Where did that get us? You can't tell me that you haven't seen players on other teams that are better than ours, yet they weren't ranked out of HS. The talent is there, the athleticism may not be, but we need ball players and senior leadership. That's what I'm looking forward to getting out of the 14' class. We need ballplayers that will stay all four years and augment that with a couple of studs.

Maybe the staff playing guys out of position and not being the best at developing them is partially responsible for other team's unranked players playing better than our highly recruited players?

Where is this "not good at developing" theme coming from? Not every kid is going to become the player you hoped he would be, that doesn't mean the staff is bad at developing. Dom is the only player who you could say you hoped would have developed more. I've seen noticeable improvement out of Sampson and Obekpa from freshman to sophomore years.

You said in your previous post that "you can't tell me that you haven't seen players on other teams that are better than ours, yet they weren't ranked out of HS." So that means other team's players have developed better than ours, no? It just happened to be a coincidence that all of the players that recruiting services wound up overrating ended up here?

Let's look at Dwayne Polee as an example. He came in similar to Lavin's other guys in terms of being super athletic but very raw when it came to basketball skills. He went to SDSU and they have made a basketball player out of him when Lav and co never made Dom or Amir basketball players. Don't kid yourself into thinking that's just a coincidence and that Polee would have been as good for us as he was for SDSU if he never left here

Sampson and Obekpa seemed to be developing pretty well, why only single out Dom and Amir? Amir was never serious about basketball anyway, he just loves to play. It's not like Polee is doing something amazing, he showed he had some skill his freshman year so his performance isn't a surprise.

 Obekpa is gone.  That's not a question in my mind.
But I think the 2015 class is the big issue.   If Lavin is in good shape with Briscoe Govan and Diallo then the arguments to keep him should carry some weight (even tho I disagree).
But that's a big assumption to make.   And if we're not in position to land the aforementioned, then there truly is no reason to keep Lavin.
The problem as I see it, is that in sept of last year we may have had a good shot with those juniors, but as time goes on and the team fails, players leave, and Lavin looks more and more like he's full of hot air, our likelihood of signing them is decreasing by the day. 
Also, let's not forget there have been issues regarding his recruits from almost day 1.  He signed Nuri who left after a semester.  Jordan was on the verge of doing the same.   Obekpa is apparently uncoachable and refused to enter a game.  And Harrison was suspended over and over for various misdemeanors before he was benched for the end of the 2013 season, and almost left the program last summer (Dave's words, not mine). 

I know we would all prefer if these issues didn't happen, but the truth is that they did.    And when you couple those issues with his poor in game coaching, the lack of 2014 recruits, and the lack of player development...well then what exactly is he doing right?

And SJUfan don't tell us there is good talent available.  Yes, some guys fly under the radar.  And it's possible to land a good player late in the game.  But all the major conference schools have secured their recruiting classes by now.
Could we find a key player? Sure.  But it's obvious that we are trying to play catch up.