Chicken/Egg -- Recruits/Extension

The problem w making the tournament now is the league is very, very good.  Is that Lavin's fault too?  I'm hoping we make it anyway and we could.

How many will get in...Vil, GW, St. John's, Butler, Creighton, Seton Hall, Prov., Xavier, Marquette?   All good teams capable of beating each other on any given night and so is DePaul if Garrett shoots well.  OMG!

At the end of this year I expect his body of work to warrant an extension. Also, if we dont get both sampson and diallo, it looks like the team will be really bad for the next two-three years.  If lavin's contract situation has a good chance of impacting the decision for those guys, then he should get extended.  He's either the coach or he isn't, if he is the university needs to help him recruit, if he isn't, then he should be gone already.  Give the guy an extension with a reasonable buy out.

I guess we really disagree. I honestly don't think he is in danger of losing his job. Io do think he be evaluated and given an extension . Next year may be a down year but nothing like 4 years ago. The bigbeast isn't the same .

add a poll...

So many factors.  

For those who feel he deserves extension.
If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money.  What do you do?

So many factors. For those who feel he deserves extension. If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money. What do you do?

I'd refuse based on his second request. With SJU very financially challenged at this point, an increase in a very healthy salary level is imprudent.

I guess we really disagree. I honestly don't think he is in danger of losing his job. Io do think he be evaluated and given an extension . Next year may be a down year but nothing like 4 years ago. The bigbeast isn't the same .

He's at least in danger of losing it.   Whether or not he will is obviously up for discussion.   But if the school loved him, he would have an extension already.
He doesn't.  So I think you can only conclude that he's on the hotseat. 

So many factors. For those who feel he deserves extension. If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money. What do you do?

Offer him a pay cut.

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 12:30:38 PM

So many factors. For those who feel he deserves extension. If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money. What do you do?

Offer him a pay cut.

Certainly eliminating Keady's position & "generous" salary should be reviewed. The PR move in hiring him initially in a limited role is one thing, but why continue this?

1. Jay Wright - Villanova - $2,290,346
2. John Thompson III - Georgetown - $2,211,250
3. Oliver Purnell - DePaul - $2,192,385
4. Buzz Williams - Marquette - $1,105,203 in base and $631,250 paid to "Team Buzz Williams L.P." or $1,736,453
5. Steve Lavin - St. John's - $1,413,952
6. Greg McDermott - Creighton - $1,369,949
7. Keno Davis - Providence - $889,930 (obviously Ed Cooley is the coach now but I would suspect it'll be something similar to this)
8. Brad Stevens - Butler - $853,397
9. Kevin Willard - Seton Hall - $722,509
10. Chris Mack - Xavier - $484,399 (I am sure he's getting paid more than this, but this is what was in the return)

I could only find 2012 Salaries  for Big East Coachesbut I think it is fair the we renew Coach Lav's contact at his current rate or give him a raise.

Look at what other coaches are getting

Duke	Mike Krzyzewski	$9,682,032	N/A	$9,682,032	N/A
Louisville	Rick Pitino	$4,678,327	$1,080,011	$5,758,338	$775,000
Kentucky	John Calipari	$5,200,000	$311,381	$5,511,381	$850,000
Kansas	Bill Self	$4,750,763	$210,000	$4,960,763	$525,000
Florida	Billy Donovan	$3,875,964	$30,000	$3,905,964	$454,000
Michigan State	Tom Izzo	$3,413,954	$480,000	$3,893,954	$350,000
UCLA	Steve Alford	$3,473,973	$0	$3,473,973	$270,000
Ohio State	Thad Matta	$3,182,000	$100,000	$3,282,000	$410,000
Memphis	Josh Pastner	$2,650,000	$0	$2,650,000	$710,000
Arizona	Sean Miller	$2,200,000	$427,806	$2,627,806	$985,000
Texas	Rick Barnes	$2,550,000	$0	$2,550,000	$790,000
Michigan	John Beilein	$2,450,000	$48,242	$2,498,242	$275,000
Villanova	Jay Wright	$2,489,332	N/A	$2,489,332	N/A
Oklahoma State	Travis Ford	$2,450,000	N/A	$2,450,000	$0
Pittsburgh	Jamie Dixon	$2,445,682	N/A	$2,445,682	N/A
Virginia	Tony Bennett	$2,289,600	$1,500	$2,291,100	$1,400,000
Wisconsin	Bo Ryan	$2,125,000	$163,500	$2,288,500	$400,000
Oklahoma	Lon Kruger	$2,200,000	$0	$2,200,000	$270,000
Baylor	Scott Drew	$2,133,120	N/A	$2,133,120	N/A
North Carolina State	Mark Gottfried	$2,009,000	N/A	$2,009,000	$1,328,250
Oregon	Dana Altman	$2,000,000	N/A	$2,000,000	$820,000
North Carolina	Roy Williams	$1,827,945	N/A	$1,827,945	$112,648
Syracuse	Jim Boeheim	$1,818,661	N/A	$1,818,661	N/A
Arizona State	Herb Sendek	$1,800,000	$4,500	$1,804,500	$400,000
Wichita State	Gregg Marshall	$1,700,000	$94,500	$1,794,500	$838,000
Kansas State	Bruce Weber	$1,750,000	$4,040	$1,754,040	$735,000
Iowa State	Fred Hoiberg	$1,600,000	$18,750	$1,618,750	$675,000
Cincinnati	Mick Cronin	$1,552,205	N/A	$1,552,205	$670,000
VCU	Shaka Smart	$1,520,000	$10,000	$1,530,000	$699,250
Nebraska	Tim Miles	$1,525,000	N/A	$1,525,000	$875,000
Iowa	Fran McCaffery	$1,500,000	$1,250	$1,501,250	$805,000
Colorado	Tad Boyle	$1,421,500	$6,000	$1,427,500	$1,550,000

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on December 08, 2014, 10:19:36 AM

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 09:39:52 AM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on December 08, 2014, 09:27:04 AM

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 08:46:49 AM

Quote from: redstorm212 on December 08, 2014, 05:51:16 AM

Basically we are setting him up to fail without an extension. If we are 10-1 going into Seton Hall and possibly a top 15 team, he's gotta be given an extension.

Are you ok with having to wait 4 years to be good again? I said it 4 years ago when the massive 9 man class turned into 6 and started whittling away. We were setting ourselves up to be good every 4 years. I'd like someone to build a team the right way and balance it with 4 year players and stability. I hope to hell this team wins big for these kids. But honestly I still walk away IMO.

Same can be asked of you. Are you okay with getting rid of a coach who's record has improved each year for an unknown? It would take a new coach 3-4 years anyway to become good again. Lavin is not a great game coach. I don't think he is as bad as most make him out to be though. He does need to find a way to blance the roster better. That will be the only way to substain the winning this fan base wants. IMO that starts with having a bunch of 3-star recruits that will be here for 4 years. Mix in a few 4-5 star recruits and you have something cooking.

Yes I am prepared to move in a new direction. I know the team won't be good next year. I hope we don't lose any unexpected players but I think we all know this day and age especially with SJU its pretty much par for the course. I would rather build a team the right way instead of throwing crap against a wall and seeing what sticks. Next year is pretty close to the first year in terms of what we return. I know what you are saying in that we 'improved' each year but in reality we didnt. We went from an NCAA team with a Top 3 recruiting class into a 2 year disaster. Miss out on the tournament last year to get smoke in the first round of the NIT as a top seed. Lavin has not lived up to his salary and I think its safe to say he will want a raise in addition to an extension. That is where the divide will start.

Fair enough. But it's a crap shoot that the next coach would build a team the right way. Because for the most part that would mean sucking for a few seasons. I also don't trust the admins and so called money men backing SJU to make the right choice if they do need to replace Lavin.

I think most of the names we would in theory go after will build it better.  We're talking coaches who make less $.  But yes we will suck for a few years.  I personally would rather suck with the right mindset instead of sucking and throwing out shit against a wall trying to get out from the hole quickly, but recklessly.

+1,000

So many factors. 

For those who feel he deserves extension.
If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money.  What do you do?

Depends on how much more money he is asking for and if I feel that investment would pay off in increased attendance and sponsorship for the university.

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 12:30:38 PM

So many factors. For those who feel he deserves extension. If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money. What do you do?

Offer him a pay cut.

And that is when a mutual parting of ways comes into play.

give him the extension.  i'm not willing to start over again with a new coach.  obviously he's not the best coach, but i think he can learn from his mistakes from these past 4 years with a new group (strategy and recruiting wise).

other than that, he does bring in the national PR that no coach since louie has been able to give us.  it's important in today's hyperactive media environment.

give him the extension. i'm not willing to start over again with a new coach. obviously he's not the best coach, but i think he can learn from his mistakes from these past 4 years with a new group (strategy and recruiting wise). other than that, he does bring in the national PR that no coach since louie has been able to give us. it's important in today's hyperactive media environment.

Agree completely . I don't want to start over either. We got another game Wed. Lets focus on that . 

Red2395--thanks for salary info
Hard to believe Lavin is getting $750K LESS than Purcell

Quote from: redmen4life on December 08, 2014, 04:37:38 PM

give him the extension. i'm not willing to start over again with a new coach. obviously he's not the best coach, but i think he can learn from his mistakes from these past 4 years with a new group (strategy and recruiting wise). other than that, he does bring in the national PR that no coach since louie has been able to give us. it's important in today's hyperactive media environment.

Agree completely . I don't want to start over either. We got another game Wed. Lets focus on that .

Well, what if you look at it like this..
We're starting over anyway.   I know no one wants to presume anything... but all signs suggest Obekpa and Jordan are leaving.  They've told the world as much.    Also, again .. at the risk of making assumptions, my understanding was always that Diallo was a long shot.  We were in the game, and maybe still are.  But its more likely he goes somewhere else than that he comes here.

If this is the case, and we are starting over, do you want to start over with Lavin or Maissello/Hurley ?   It's a very different question than continuing what we have this year.   I don't see that as an option, the players will be gone and none of equal talent are coming in.

Also, the PR thing doesn't bother me at all.   Norm was a bad coach because he didn't know how to evaluate his own team, not because he was a boring interview.   Bill Self and Izzo are ugly boring guys.  No one cares.   Win and the papers will write about you. 

I'd take Lavin over either Massiello or Hurley right now.  Neither has proven themselves enough to make me comfortable that they will do a better job, or even as good a job, as Lavin.

Quote from: TONYD3 on December 08, 2014, 04:47:43 PM

Quote from: redmen4life on December 08, 2014, 04:37:38 PM

give him the extension. i'm not willing to start over again with a new coach. obviously he's not the best coach, but i think he can learn from his mistakes from these past 4 years with a new group (strategy and recruiting wise). other than that, he does bring in the national PR that no coach since louie has been able to give us. it's important in today's hyperactive media environment.

Agree completely . I don't want to start over either. We got another game Wed. Lets focus on that .

Well, what if you look at it like this..
We're starting over anyway.   I know no one wants to presume anything... but all signs suggest Obekpa and Jordan are leaving.  They've told the world as much.    Also, again .. at the risk of making assumptions, my understanding was always that Diallo was a long shot.  We were in the game, and maybe still are.  But its more likely he goes somewhere else than that he comes here.

If this is the case, and we are starting over, do you want to start over with Lavin or Maissello/Hurley ?   It's a very different question than continuing what we have this year.   I don't see that as an option, the players will be gone and none of equal talent are coming in.

Also, the PR thing doesn't bother me at all.   Norm was a bad coach because he didn't know how to evaluate his own team, not because he was a boring interview.   Bill Self and Izzo are ugly boring guys.  No one cares.   Win and the papers will write about you.

If the choices are Lavin or Maissello/Hurley I'm taking Lavin. I'm still not sold on Maissello or Hurley.

Fair enough.   And therein lies the differences between posters.
I don't think any of you consider Lavin a great x's and o's coach, or perfect by any stretch.   But you would rather go with Lavin over either of those options which you see as unproven.
I think there's another group of posters (including myself and Moose) who don't think Lavin is absolutely awful (he has done some good things), but think that if we're starting over next year we'd like to go with one of Hurley/Maissello.