Lavin Luck + Credit

Quote from: Moose on December 29, 2014, 04:41:03 PM

But anyone who thinks the results of this season are the only factor for an extension are lost.

I'm lost. We're off to the best start since 1985 and have the highest ranking (#15) since...a long time ago and we're 40% into the season. If the team doesn't completely fall off a cliff in conference play, the only way Hollywood isn't coming back is if he leaves on his own volition. If he dances, next years recruits could be Bugs Bunny and Donald Duck and he's returning. Wake up and smell the wins people!

Check out the bolded part above.  You said it.  I didn't.

Quote from: TONYD3 on December 29, 2014, 05:57:08 PM

We all keep saying the same things. However, I think everyone who was anti Lavin never thought we would be this good. I don't think we peaked. I think we stay ranked in the 10/15 team in the country all year. Someone is going to want to be the next Harrsion. Someone is going to want to be the next Pointer. Margin is slim but think we have this season is setting up perfectly. We are going to be on the covers of a lot of news papers. Lavin is going to be everywhere. Players are going to come.

Assuming all that is true Tony, there aren't that many players left who are undecided. That's a big issue. I don't disagree that how we play this season could impress a lot of recruits. And of course PR and Moose are right that rooting for this team and worrying about next season aren't mutually exclusive.

But it seems like we are wrong Desco.  Because god forbid anything with a hint of negativity is said the cavalcade of "We are Ranked 15, Best start in 30 years, Just enjoy the season responses" come flooding in.  These people seriously think anyone who has any doubts about the future of the program sit there and are pissed when we win.  

It's amazing how you have to be either on the right side of the fence or the left side of the fence.  You can't sit on top of the fence and see things on both sides.  Sites used to be fun.  Hell I had more fun during the the Jarvis/Norm years on here.  Now its a joke.

Quote from: prjohnnies on December 29, 2014, 06:02:50 PM

That is what I'm holding out hope for Tony - that the success on the court has a domino effect. WASJU - I'm enjoying the hell out of the season. Been to a handful of games and plan on going to more with friends and family. It's been awesome. But you can pull for and enjoy this group and still be concerned about what the team is going to look like next year. Not mutually exclusive.

Sadly too many don't realize this.

I disagree. I don't know how you can be a knowledgeable fan and not be concerned about next year w so many leaving and only 1 recruit so far.

We will be in worse shape next year than we were in Lavin's second year. It will take us at least another 3, maybe 4 years to get back to the tournament, if we even can. That is a major problem. I'm enjoying the ride this year and hoping for the best on the recruting front but it really doesn't look too promising.

Assuming all that is true Tony, there aren't that many players left who are undecided. That's a big issue.

Come on now, your speaking about rankings, not players. We don't know everyone the staff is involved with nor do we know who will be on the team next year. The staff is paid to find those kids who will help us. If talent was based on rankings alone there wouldn't be the Witchita States of the world.
Many posters have stated how tired they are of the "highly ranked" athletic players with low BB IQ Lavin has brought in who only looks to stay for a couple years and rather him go after lower ranked basketball players. Well he's doing that now and people are still complaining. I think he will bring in good players, regardless of their rankings. I like Stewart, Amir, and the Twins and think they will be very good for our program.
The Savior and Oblockpa should return next year and if so we will be alright, if not we will make do with who we have and we will win.

When a fan on Twitter mentioned Lavin being fired some fans actually said we should be worried about him leaving for a better job.  That was pure comedy.

Sjufan, we won't be able to just "make do".
If Obekpa and Jordan don't return, we're going to have a roster with DePaul type talent, and maybe worse.

Nothing I have seen suggests Stewart,  Amir, Felix, or Jones can be starters a year from now.

There are nuances and context to every situation.  I understand Moose 's frustration.  I may go overboard sometimes with the tie-sh!t, but it's impossible to be the least bit critical of the program without hearing how miserable I must be and why I need to look at the brightside.

Here's the thing...I agree w moose and Desco that it's a problem if there is a mediocre recruiting class next year. However, 1) Lavin isn't getting fired mid season when we are good, obviously, so regardless of what happens at years end the recruiting for next year is what lavin makes it this year.
2) we have had so little success over the last decade that regardless of recruits, there is no way we are firing lavin at years end if we dance.  So maybe there's no extension but they won't have the balls to can a guy who made his second dance in five years with us. So we are stuck w lavin and his recruiting next year too. 

So if we are stuck w two consecutive recruiting classes by lavin, barring an implosion this year, why NOT extend him with a low buyout.  That will help him recruit and the guy likely will have gotten us to 2 tourneys in 5 years as of years end.  ID sign up for a lifetime of 3 out of 5 years of tourney appearances personally.

Anyway not criticizing anyone for being critical, I get it, but isn't the best thing for the short term of the program giving the man an extension ASAP that he can wield on recruiting trips? Gotta think other coaches are telling kids he is gone and let's be honest...they are coming to play for lavin and St. John's, but not the latter more so than the former.  Probably pretty equally Id say.

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 06:17:59 PM

Assuming all that is true Tony, there aren't that many players left who are undecided. That's a big issue.

Come on now, your speaking about rankings, not players. We don't know everyone the staff is involved with nor do we know who will be on the team next year. The staff is paid to find those kids who will help us. If talent was based on rankings alone there wouldn't be the Witchita States of the world. Many posters have stated how tired they are of the "highly ranked" athletic players with low BB IQ Lavin has brought in who only looks to stay for a couple years and rather him go after lower ranked basketball players. Well he's doing that now and people are still complaining. I think he will bring in good players, regardless of their rankings. I like Stewart, Amir, and the Twins and think they will be very good for our program. The Savior and Oblockpa should return next year and if so we will be alright, if not we will make do with who we have and we will win.

I definitely want lower maintenance players.  Definitely high bball IQ.  But if the season ended today and lets say for argument sakes 1 of the 2 players you mentioned returned.  (Everyone knows which one I think won't).  Do you know who returns with the 2nd and 3rd most minutes on the team?  CJ with 76 minutes played and Myles Stewart with 74.  It took these highly ranked players 4 years to 'get it'.  If these guys go from 6 mpg to 35 mpg its not a recipe for success.  I don't want to wait around to be good once every 4 years.  

*Also why are we referring to Rysheed as the Savior?

Here's the thing...I agree w moose and Desco that it's a problem if there is a mediocre recruiting class next year. However, 1) Lavin isn't getting fired mid season when we are good, obviously, so regardless of what happens at years end the recruiting for next year is what lavin makes it this year. 2) we have had so little success over the last decade that regardless of recruits, there is no way we are firing lavin at years end if we dance. So maybe there's no extension but they won't have the balls to can a guy who made his second dance in five years with us. So we are stuck w lavin and his recruiting next year too. So if we are stuck w two consecutive recruiting classes by lavin, barring an implosion this year, why NOT extend him with a low buyout. That will help him recruit and the guy likely will have gotten us to 2 tourneys in 5 years as of years end. ID sign up for a lifetime of 3 out of 5 years of tourney appearances personally. Anyway not criticizing anyone for being critical, I get it, but isn't the best thing for the short term of the program giving the man an extension ASAP that he can wield on recruiting trips? Gotta think other coaches are telling kids he is gone and let's be honest...they are coming to play for lavin and St. John's, but not the latter more so than the former. Probably pretty equally Id say.

A lack of extension is probably a big reason why Briscoe isn't ours.  It's likely a big reason why Diallo and Sampson haven't popped.  It's why we likely struck out with others in the fall and some last spring as well.  I just don't want to hand out an extension unless I have a better feel for the direction of the program.  We are STILL playing catch up in terms of recruiting.  85% of the players are usually verballed and signed in the fall.  Yet we keep going into the Spring with handfuls of schollies to give out.  I never would have thought in Year 5 we would still be recruiting the current class and not ahead of the game getting early verbals from juniors and sophs.

Sjufan, we won't be able to just "make do". If Obekpa and Jordan don't return, we're going to have a roster with DePaul type talent, and maybe worse. Nothing I have seen suggests Stewart, Amir, Felix, or Jones can be starters a year from now. There are nuances and context to every situation. I understand Moose 's frustration. I may go overboard sometimes with the tie-sh!t, but it's impossible to be the least bit critical of the program without hearing how miserable I must be and why I need to look at the brightside.

Why is he blamed if they leave?
Besides Kentucky what team could handle that?

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 06:17:59 PM

Assuming all that is true Tony, there aren't that many players left who are undecided. That's a big issue.

Come on now, your speaking about rankings, not players. We don't know everyone the staff is involved with nor do we know who will be on the team next year. The staff is paid to find those kids who will help us. If talent was based on rankings alone there wouldn't be the Witchita States of the world. Many posters have stated how tired they are of the "highly ranked" athletic players with low BB IQ Lavin has brought in who only looks to stay for a couple years and rather him go after lower ranked basketball players. Well he's doing that now and people are still complaining. I think he will bring in good players, regardless of their rankings. I like Stewart, Amir, and the Twins and think they will be very good for our program. The Savior and Oblockpa should return next year and if so we will be alright, if not we will make do with who we have and we will win.

Lets take a look at the non-top 100/JUCO/transfers Lavin has brought in:
Polee- transfered after one year
Nuri Lindsey-mid-major player who transferred after a semester
Greene-turned out to be a nice 4-year player.
Gods'Gift- mid-major player
Branch- good player
Sanchez- mediocre player, soft on defense
Jones- mid-major player
Balamou-mid-major player
Bourgault- mid-major player
Hooper- mid-major player
Thomas- Ineligible
Amar- Haven't seen much of him but looks to be a few years off until he might contribute
ADR- ineligible
JDR- mid-major player

Lavin has swung and missed often on his under-the-radar guys. I'm not too keen on seeing an entire team full of them.

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 07:12:20 PM

Sjufan, we won't be able to just "make do". If Obekpa and Jordan don't return, we're going to have a roster with DePaul type talent, and maybe worse. Nothing I have seen suggests Stewart, Amir, Felix, or Jones can be starters a year from now. There are nuances and context to every situation. I understand Moose 's frustration. I may go overboard sometimes with the tie-sh!t, but it's impossible to be the least bit critical of the program without hearing how miserable I must be and why I need to look at the brightside.

Why is he blamed if they leave?

Come on Tony.......

Quote from: TONYD3 on December 29, 2014, 07:18:30 PM

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 07:12:20 PM

Sjufan, we won't be able to just "make do". If Obekpa and Jordan don't return, we're going to have a roster with DePaul type talent, and maybe worse. Nothing I have seen suggests Stewart, Amir, Felix, or Jones can be starters a year from now. There are nuances and context to every situation. I understand Moose 's frustration. I may go overboard sometimes with the tie-sh!t, but it's impossible to be the least bit critical of the program without hearing how miserable I must be and why I need to look at the brightside.

Why is he blamed if they leave?

Come on Tony.......

Very serious. Don't understand that at all. 

Quote from: SJUFAN on December 29, 2014, 07:06:47 PM

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 06:17:59 PM

Assuming all that is true Tony, there aren't that many players left who are undecided. That's a big issue.

Come on now, your speaking about rankings, not players. We don't know everyone the staff is involved with nor do we know who will be on the team next year. The staff is paid to find those kids who will help us. If talent was based on rankings alone there wouldn't be the Witchita States of the world. Many posters have stated how tired they are of the "highly ranked" athletic players with low BB IQ Lavin has brought in who only looks to stay for a couple years and rather him go after lower ranked basketball players. Well he's doing that now and people are still complaining. I think he will bring in good players, regardless of their rankings. I like Stewart, Amir, and the Twins and think they will be very good for our program. The Savior and Oblockpa should return next year and if so we will be alright, if not we will make do with who we have and we will win.

I definitely want lower maintenance players.  Definitely high bball IQ.  But if the season ended today and lets say for argument sakes 1 of the 2 players you mentioned returned.  (Everyone knows which one I think won't).  Do you know who returns with the 2nd and 3rd most minutes on the team?  CJ with 76 minutes played and Myles Stewart with 74.  It took these highly ranked players 4 years to 'get it'.  If these guys go from 6 mpg to 35 mpg its not a recipe for success.  I don't want to wait around to be good once every 4 years. 

*Also why are we referring to Rysheed as the Savior?

I agree with you on the part with only being good every 4 years. Like you I had hoped that Lavin would have enough back ups in place who are ready to step up in their junior/senior seasons. That doesn't look likely at this point.

But unless Lavin requests a crazy amount of money, I don't see how you can't offer him an extension. I can't think on a single coach that is willing to come here that would be able to win right away. So if the season ended today and you replaced Lavin the team will probably stink for 2-3 years anyway no?

Quote from: Moose on December 29, 2014, 07:20:40 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on December 29, 2014, 07:18:30 PM

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 07:12:20 PM

Sjufan, we won't be able to just "make do". If Obekpa and Jordan don't return, we're going to have a roster with DePaul type talent, and maybe worse. Nothing I have seen suggests Stewart, Amir, Felix, or Jones can be starters a year from now. There are nuances and context to every situation. I understand Moose 's frustration. I may go overboard sometimes with the tie-sh!t, but it's impossible to be the least bit critical of the program without hearing how miserable I must be and why I need to look at the brightside.

Why is he blamed if they leave?

Come on Tony.......

Very serious. Don't understand that at all.

Tony- LAVIN recruited the players.  If he wanted players that had an eye on the next level for whatever personal reasons then fine.  You have a succession plan in place.  In business if I hired a bunch of employees and they all seemed to leave relatively quickly after they were hired or prior to their 'contract' being up, eventually my boss would question the type of people I am bringing in.

Lavin used to see he was the GM of SJU right?  Roster management and construction falls on LAVIN.  We keep depending on these stars.  But our roster is still unstable.

Quote from: Moose on December 29, 2014, 07:14:27 PM

Quote from: SJUFAN on December 29, 2014, 07:06:47 PM

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 06:17:59 PM

Assuming all that is true Tony, there aren't that many players left who are undecided. That's a big issue.

Come on now, your speaking about rankings, not players. We don't know everyone the staff is involved with nor do we know who will be on the team next year. The staff is paid to find those kids who will help us. If talent was based on rankings alone there wouldn't be the Witchita States of the world. Many posters have stated how tired they are of the "highly ranked" athletic players with low BB IQ Lavin has brought in who only looks to stay for a couple years and rather him go after lower ranked basketball players. Well he's doing that now and people are still complaining. I think he will bring in good players, regardless of their rankings. I like Stewart, Amir, and the Twins and think they will be very good for our program. The Savior and Oblockpa should return next year and if so we will be alright, if not we will make do with who we have and we will win.

I definitely want lower maintenance players. Definitely high bball IQ. But if the season ended today and lets say for argument sakes 1 of the 2 players you mentioned returned. (Everyone knows which one I think won't). Do you know who returns with the 2nd and 3rd most minutes on the team? CJ with 76 minutes played and Myles Stewart with 74. It took these highly ranked players 4 years to 'get it'. If these guys go from 6 mpg to 35 mpg its not a recipe for success. I don't want to wait around to be good once every 4 years. *Also why are we referring to Rysheed as the Savior?

I agree with you on the part with only being good every 4 years. Like you I had hoped that Lavin would have enough back ups in place who are ready to step up in their junior/senior seasons. That doesn't look likely at this point. But unless Lavin requests a crazy amount of money, I don't see how you can't offer him an extension. I can't think on a single coach that is willing to come here that would be able to win right away. So if the season ended today and you replaced Lavin the team will probably stink for 2-3 years anyway no?

He's already getting a crazy amount of money.

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 07:12:20 PM

Sjufan, we won't be able to just "make do". If Obekpa and Jordan don't return, we're going to have a roster with DePaul type talent, and maybe worse. Nothing I have seen suggests Stewart, Amir, Felix, or Jones can be starters a year from now. There are nuances and context to every situation. I understand Moose 's frustration. I may go overboard sometimes with the tie-sh!t, but it's impossible to be the least bit critical of the program without hearing how miserable I must be and why I need to look at the brightside.

Why is he blamed if they leave?
Besides Kentucky what team could handle that?

He shouldn't be blamed for them leaving.  But I'm saying we would be severely lacking in talent because to date he's done such a poor recruiting job.

And stj11, I never faulted coach for going after athletic and highly ranked players.  That's the most obvious way to be successful.  But, how he composes a roster is highly questionable.  We played wit no pg, and now we have very little front court depth. 
But I don't fault coach for the type of player he's recruited. 

Lastly, his recruiting hasn't just been poor this season, frankly I'm disappointed at his second tier recruits:  jones and felix were thought to be 4 year players...we're lucky if they are 1 1/2 yr players.  And Hooper and Marco were equally disappointing.
So the program is left with guys who aren't ready to takeover starting roles, and no impact freshmen.    That's a bad recipe. 

Quote from: SJUFAN on December 29, 2014, 07:06:47 PM

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 06:17:59 PM

Assuming all that is true Tony, there aren't that many players left who are undecided. That's a big issue.

Come on now, your speaking about rankings, not players. We don't know everyone the staff is involved with nor do we know who will be on the team next year. The staff is paid to find those kids who will help us. If talent was based on rankings alone there wouldn't be the Witchita States of the world. Many posters have stated how tired they are of the "highly ranked" athletic players with low BB IQ Lavin has brought in who only looks to stay for a couple years and rather him go after lower ranked basketball players. Well he's doing that now and people are still complaining. I think he will bring in good players, regardless of their rankings. I like Stewart, Amir, and the Twins and think they will be very good for our program. The Savior and Oblockpa should return next year and if so we will be alright, if not we will make do with who we have and we will win.

Lets take a look at the non-top 100/JUCO/transfers Lavin has brought in: Polee- transfered after one year Nuri Lindsey-mid-major player who transferred after a semester Greene-turned out to be a nice 4-year player. Gods'Gift- mid-major player Branch- good player Sanchez- mediocre player, soft on defense Jones- mid-major player Balamou-mid-major player Bourgault- mid-major player Hooper- mid-major player Thomas- Ineligible Amar- Haven't seen much of him but looks to be a few years off until he might contribute ADR- ineligible JDR- mid-major player Lavin has swung and missed often on his under-the-radar guys. I'm not too keen on seeing an entire team full of them.

Godsgift was a very servicable big east backup. Greene a 4 year starter, Polee had a very good college basketball career. Sanchez is in the NBADL, Jones, Balamou haven't really had enough PT to prove what they can do. Amar is a Freshman on a very talented roster. ADR has 4 years ahead of him, JDR was a package deal. I disagree with saying "swing and miss" on everyone you said besides Nuri, Thomas, Bourgault, and Hooper, although I don't see what the harm was in trying to bring in those two shooters.

Quote from: Moose on December 29, 2014, 07:14:27 PM

Quote from: SJUFAN on December 29, 2014, 07:06:47 PM

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 06:17:59 PM

Assuming all that is true Tony, there aren't that many players left who are undecided. That's a big issue.

Come on now, your speaking about rankings, not players. We don't know everyone the staff is involved with nor do we know who will be on the team next year. The staff is paid to find those kids who will help us. If talent was based on rankings alone there wouldn't be the Witchita States of the world. Many posters have stated how tired they are of the "highly ranked" athletic players with low BB IQ Lavin has brought in who only looks to stay for a couple years and rather him go after lower ranked basketball players. Well he's doing that now and people are still complaining. I think he will bring in good players, regardless of their rankings. I like Stewart, Amir, and the Twins and think they will be very good for our program. The Savior and Oblockpa should return next year and if so we will be alright, if not we will make do with who we have and we will win.

I definitely want lower maintenance players. Definitely high bball IQ. But if the season ended today and lets say for argument sakes 1 of the 2 players you mentioned returned. (Everyone knows which one I think won't). Do you know who returns with the 2nd and 3rd most minutes on the team? CJ with 76 minutes played and Myles Stewart with 74. It took these highly ranked players 4 years to 'get it'. If these guys go from 6 mpg to 35 mpg its not a recipe for success. I don't want to wait around to be good once every 4 years. *Also why are we referring to Rysheed as the Savior?

I agree with you on the part with only being good every 4 years. Like you I had hoped that Lavin would have enough back ups in place who are ready to step up in their junior/senior seasons. That doesn't look likely at this point. But unless Lavin requests a crazy amount of money, I don't see how you can't offer him an extension. I can't think on a single coach that is willing to come here that would be able to win right away. So if the season ended today and you replaced Lavin the team will probably stink for 2-3 years anyway no?

Yes we would stink for 2-3 years likely.  But all new things bring hope right?
I said this before.  And sorry to sound like a broken record like Desco and his fashion discussion (Kidding buddy  ) But has Lavin earned an extension at the same exact salary he's making?  If so then fine.  But what if he wants more money?  Has he earned an extension with an increase in salary?  That is when things become interesting.  No?

And remember this is a new regime at SJU.  A new President.  He came here to make changes to the University.  Basketball is a small part of that in the grand scheme of things but nobody knows what his vision is.  Maybe he wants to cut costs?