Lavin Luck + Credit

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on December 29, 2014, 07:27:02 PM

Quote from: Moose on December 29, 2014, 07:14:27 PM

Quote from: SJUFAN on December 29, 2014, 07:06:47 PM

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 06:17:59 PM

Assuming all that is true Tony, there aren't that many players left who are undecided. That's a big issue.

Come on now, your speaking about rankings, not players. We don't know everyone the staff is involved with nor do we know who will be on the team next year. The staff is paid to find those kids who will help us. If talent was based on rankings alone there wouldn't be the Witchita States of the world. Many posters have stated how tired they are of the "highly ranked" athletic players with low BB IQ Lavin has brought in who only looks to stay for a couple years and rather him go after lower ranked basketball players. Well he's doing that now and people are still complaining. I think he will bring in good players, regardless of their rankings. I like Stewart, Amir, and the Twins and think they will be very good for our program. The Savior and Oblockpa should return next year and if so we will be alright, if not we will make do with who we have and we will win.

I definitely want lower maintenance players. Definitely high bball IQ. But if the season ended today and lets say for argument sakes 1 of the 2 players you mentioned returned. (Everyone knows which one I think won't). Do you know who returns with the 2nd and 3rd most minutes on the team? CJ with 76 minutes played and Myles Stewart with 74. It took these highly ranked players 4 years to 'get it'. If these guys go from 6 mpg to 35 mpg its not a recipe for success. I don't want to wait around to be good once every 4 years. *Also why are we referring to Rysheed as the Savior?

I agree with you on the part with only being good every 4 years. Like you I had hoped that Lavin would have enough back ups in place who are ready to step up in their junior/senior seasons. That doesn't look likely at this point. But unless Lavin requests a crazy amount of money, I don't see how you can't offer him an extension. I can't think on a single coach that is willing to come here that would be able to win right away. So if the season ended today and you replaced Lavin the team will probably stink for 2-3 years anyway no?

Yes we would stink for 2-3 years likely.  But all new things bring hope right?
I said this before.  And sorry to sound like a broken record like Desco and his fashion discussion (Kidding buddy ) But has Lavin earned an extension at the same exact salary he's making?  If so then fine.  But what if he wants more money?  Has he earned an extension with an increase in salary?  That is when things become interesting.  No?

And remember this is a new regime at SJU.  A new President.  He came here to make changes to the University.  Basketball is a small part of that in the grand scheme of things but nobody knows what his vision is.  Maybe he wants to cut costs? 

I hear ya and that can be a scary thought also. Go cheap and if the coach does succeed here he jumps ship for more money.

Heck I would offer Lavin a part of ticket sales at MSG. You fill the place with fans, there is your bonus! If not, go scratch.

I'll add that we still don't know what this season is yet.  I'm certainly not ready to deem it an overwhelming success yet.

I'll add that we still don't know what this season is yet. I'm certainly not ready to deem it an overwhelming success yet.

agreed. But at the same time NEXT YEAR IS NOT A FAILURE YET! Can not have it both ways.

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 07:47:44 PM

I'll add that we still don't know what this season is yet. I'm certainly not ready to deem it an overwhelming success yet.

agreed. But at the same time NEXT YEAR IS NOT A FAILURE YET! Can not have it both ways.

Fair enough.  But if we're not counting chickens before they're hatched, then I don't know how anyone can say Lavin deserves an extension yet.

Quote from: TONYD3 on December 29, 2014, 07:50:04 PM

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 07:47:44 PM

I'll add that we still don't know what this season is yet. I'm certainly not ready to deem it an overwhelming success yet.

agreed. But at the same time NEXT YEAR IS NOT A FAILURE YET! Can not have it both ways.

Fair enough.  But if we're not counting chickens before they're hatched, then I don't know how anyone can say Lavin deserves an extension yet.

very good point.

Again we stink  almost every year. We are good this year not sure why we are even discussing. Next year anything could happen. Obekpa and Jordan could stay, we could stink like we always do or there could be a zombie apocalypse. We are finally good worry about next year in March when we lose on a bad call in the sweet 16.

Again we stink almost every year. We are good this year not sure why we are even discussing. Next year anything could happen. Obekpa and Jordan could stay, we could stink like we always do or there could be a zombie apocalypse. We are finally good worry about next year in March when we lose on a bad call in the sweet 16.

Middle of the pack team with Obekpa and punk return

Quote from: we are sju on December 29, 2014, 08:15:38 PM

Again we stink almost every year. We are good this year not sure why we are even discussing. Next year anything could happen. Obekpa and Jordan could stay, we could stink like we always do or there could be a zombie apocalypse. We are finally good worry about next year in March when we lose on a bad call in the sweet 16.

Middle of the pack team with Obekpa and punk return

Pretty big leap from immature kid to punk. And no, that would be a better team than anything your "beloved" Norm threw out there at us.

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 29, 2014, 08:20:14 PM

Quote from: we are sju on December 29, 2014, 08:15:38 PM

Again we stink almost every year. We are good this year not sure why we are even discussing. Next year anything could happen. Obekpa and Jordan could stay, we could stink like we always do or there could be a zombie apocalypse. We are finally good worry about next year in March when we lose on a bad call in the sweet 16.

Middle of the pack team with Obekpa and punk return

Pretty big leap from immature kid to punk. And no, that would be a better team than anything your "beloved" Norm threw out there at us.

Immature kid is a kid shooting spitballs in the 8th grade cafeteria. Not a 20 year old who misses his posse

Quote from: we are sju on December 29, 2014, 08:33:24 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 29, 2014, 08:20:14 PM

Quote from: we are sju on December 29, 2014, 08:15:38 PM

Again we stink almost every year. We are good this year not sure why we are even discussing. Next year anything could happen. Obekpa and Jordan could stay, we could stink like we always do or there could be a zombie apocalypse. We are finally good worry about next year in March when we lose on a bad call in the sweet 16.

Middle of the pack team with Obekpa and punk return

Pretty big leap from immature kid to punk. And no, that would be a better team than anything your "beloved" Norm threw out there at us.

Immature kid is a kid shooting spitballs in the 8th grade cafeteria. Not a 20 year old who misses his posse

Been a fan since I was about 10 and have been to Alumni Hall/ Louie Arena twice. Can't say I blame him on that score. We have certainly had worse kids here. 

Quote from: sju89tr on December 29, 2014, 12:29:37 PM

Quote from: we are sju on December 29, 2014, 12:24:36 PM

My two biggest issues with him were his inability to stick to a rotation and the lack of imagination on offense. With ADR and Thomas being ineligible Lavin "lucked" into the 6 man core rotation that has played great together. That has been the biggest difference in the previous 3 years. If anyone has bothered to notice he still plays his 7-9 men with no rhyme or reason, but it is such limited minutes that it does not matter. As far as the offense again the limited rotation allows Branch and Pointer to play more and not look over their shoulder which gives the team 3 solid passers to go with Harrison who is playing unselfishly and unselfish(partly becuase he is limited)Obekpa. The passing has been noticeably better and that has been the biggest difference in the offense outside of the Defense causing some easy baskets. Now here is where Lavin gets all the credit in the world. The team might play harder than any team in the country and despite playing a short rotation are in great shape. The commitment to Defense is very impressive and they sort of remind me of that UAB team that made the Sweet 16 a couple seasons ago purely on their tenacious D. Furthermore the team seems to genuinly like each other and are playing confidently and with swagger. All of that is on Lavin as well. No matter what happens this year I have to say the Lavin era has been truly confusing to date. Two very enjoyable teams and two utterly frustrating teams.

Kind of makes you wonder what could have been the last 2 years with the same roster esentially

Lavin wasn't benching Sampson. Addition by subtraction. As talented as JK is, he didn't do the little things that is required to win games. Dom is nowhere near the offensive threat JK is but we are playing much better with Dom at the four than JK and that's because Dom plays defense and plays within himself. IMO, that is the major difference this year and year's past.

Amen brother.  Drop Sampson and Sanchez last season and they would have made the dance. 
Lavin's biggest weakness as a coach is letting his guys do too much.  No, Sampson and Jordan, you cannot shoot those jumpers.  No Dom and Sanchez, you cannot try to create off the bounce from 25 feet away. 

Sanchez would actually be a great tool this season as a DH type big man for 5-7 minutes per half. I have no faith in Lavin using him that way, though.  Instead, he'd be floating on the perimeter on offense and we all know how bad his d was. 

Sjufan, we won't be able to just "make do". If Obekpa and Jordan don't return, we're going to have a roster with DePaul type talent, and maybe worse. Nothing I have seen suggests Stewart, Amir, Felix, or Jones can be starters a year from now. There are nuances and context to every situation. I understand Moose 's frustration. I may go overboard sometimes with the tie-sh!t, but it's impossible to be the least bit critical of the program without hearing how miserable I must be and why I need to look at the brightside.

Nothing wrong with questioning where the program is, however, we have 4 maybe 5 scholarships still to fill, we don't know what the talent level will be going into next year. I'm not expecting much from Felix or Jones at all. I do like what I have seen from Stewart and Amir and feel they will be contributors as upper classmen. We will take a step back next year only if Jordan and Obekpa leave but feel our program will be in better position to compete in 16 with the 14, 15, and 16 recruiting classes. Bottom line is you say "if" Jordan and Obekpa don't return. Well we can also say what if we get Diallo, Sampson, and Jordan or Obekpa should return? Not to shabby. "If" could go either way and no matter how unlikely it could be we should let it play out first before we scream doom and gloom and try to enjoy what is in front of us. A top 15 nationally ranked team.

Quote from: SJUFAN on December 29, 2014, 07:06:47 PM

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 06:17:59 PM

Assuming all that is true Tony, there aren't that many players left who are undecided. That's a big issue.

Come on now, your speaking about rankings, not players. We don't know everyone the staff is involved with nor do we know who will be on the team next year. The staff is paid to find those kids who will help us. If talent was based on rankings alone there wouldn't be the Witchita States of the world. Many posters have stated how tired they are of the "highly ranked" athletic players with low BB IQ Lavin has brought in who only looks to stay for a couple years and rather him go after lower ranked basketball players. Well he's doing that now and people are still complaining. I think he will bring in good players, regardless of their rankings. I like Stewart, Amir, and the Twins and think they will be very good for our program. The Savior and Oblockpa should return next year and if so we will be alright, if not we will make do with who we have and we will win.

I definitely want lower maintenance players. Definitely high bball IQ. But if the season ended today and lets say for argument sakes 1 of the 2 players you mentioned returned. (Everyone knows which one I think won't). Do you know who returns with the 2nd and 3rd most minutes on the team? CJ with 76 minutes played and Myles Stewart with 74. It took these highly ranked players 4 years to 'get it'. If these guys go from 6 mpg to 35 mpg its not a recipe for success. I don't want to wait around to be good once every 4 years. *Also why are we referring to Rysheed as the Savior?

Jordan aka Black Jesus......
For argument sake if that is the case it would be very concerning. Which is why I prefer to let it play out before I throw the staff under the bus which is what I did for their 14' efforts even though I like Amir and Stewart.

My two biggest issues with him were his inability to stick to a rotation and the lack of imagination on offense. With ADR and Thomas being ineligible Lavin "lucked" into the 6 man core rotation that has played great together. That has been the biggest difference in the previous 3 years. If anyone has bothered to notice he still plays his 7-9 men with no rhyme or reason, but it is such limited minutes that it does not matter. As far as the offense again the limited rotation allows Branch and Pointer to play more and not look over their shoulder which gives the team 3 solid passers to go with Harrison who is playing unselfishly and unselfish(partly becuase he is limited)Obekpa. The passing has been noticeably better and that has been the biggest difference in the offense outside of the Defense causing some easy baskets. Now here is where Lavin gets all the credit in the world. The team might play harder than any team in the country and despite playing a short rotation are in great shape. The commitment to Defense is very impressive and they sort of remind me of that UAB team that made the Sweet 16 a couple seasons ago purely on their tenacious D. Furthermore the team seems to genuinly like each other and are playing confidently and with swagger. All of that is on Lavin as well. No matter what happens this year I have to say the Lavin era has been truly confusing to date. Two very enjoyable teams and two utterly frustrating teams.

The people who raise their hands only when Lavin has failed have been quiet, or at best, absolutely full of shit, but he's done well this year, and his roster isn't empty after the starting 5. Jordan, Jones, Delarosa and Stewart aren't the worst bench we've ever had. If they believe in the current system and they truly buy into their roles, it can work. They all played well on Sunday given the circumstance. 
As per usual, it's easy to hide behind a fake name and always cry, but the people, the men, who have supported and paid for this program regardless of its success deserve this success. 
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the sissies who never have anything good to say about the program don't deserve to see this, but rather that they are soft, fragile sissies (students especially) who also deserve a crack or two. That is all. Only a sissy would predict failure year after year when it has proven to be the norm. State the obvious, and you get no respect. 
That said, f the haters. This is our year. Go St.John's. 

Quote from: Moose on December 29, 2014, 07:14:27 PM

Quote from: SJUFAN on December 29, 2014, 07:06:47 PM

Quote from: desco80 on December 29, 2014, 06:17:59 PM

Assuming all that is true Tony, there aren't that many players left who are undecided. That's a big issue.

Come on now, your speaking about rankings, not players. We don't know everyone the staff is involved with nor do we know who will be on the team next year. The staff is paid to find those kids who will help us. If talent was based on rankings alone there wouldn't be the Witchita States of the world. Many posters have stated how tired they are of the "highly ranked" athletic players with low BB IQ Lavin has brought in who only looks to stay for a couple years and rather him go after lower ranked basketball players. Well he's doing that now and people are still complaining. I think he will bring in good players, regardless of their rankings. I like Stewart, Amir, and the Twins and think they will be very good for our program. The Savior and Oblockpa should return next year and if so we will be alright, if not we will make do with who we have and we will win.

I definitely want lower maintenance players. Definitely high bball IQ. But if the season ended today and lets say for argument sakes 1 of the 2 players you mentioned returned. (Everyone knows which one I think won't). Do you know who returns with the 2nd and 3rd most minutes on the team? CJ with 76 minutes played and Myles Stewart with 74. It took these highly ranked players 4 years to 'get it'. If these guys go from 6 mpg to 35 mpg its not a recipe for success. I don't want to wait around to be good once every 4 years. *Also why are we referring to Rysheed as the Savior?

Jordan aka Black Jesus...... For argument sake if that is the case it would be very concerning. Which is why I prefer to let it play out before I throw the staff under the bus which is what I did for their 14' efforts even though I like Amir and Stewart.

At St.John's, we like term "savior". It's time we cut that shit out. 

Quote from: we are sju on December 29, 2014, 12:24:36 PM

My two biggest issues with him were his inability to stick to a rotation and the lack of imagination on offense. With ADR and Thomas being ineligible Lavin "lucked" into the 6 man core rotation that has played great together. That has been the biggest difference in the previous 3 years. If anyone has bothered to notice he still plays his 7-9 men with no rhyme or reason, but it is such limited minutes that it does not matter. As far as the offense again the limited rotation allows Branch and Pointer to play more and not look over their shoulder which gives the team 3 solid passers to go with Harrison who is playing unselfishly and unselfish(partly becuase he is limited)Obekpa. The passing has been noticeably better and that has been the biggest difference in the offense outside of the Defense causing some easy baskets. Now here is where Lavin gets all the credit in the world. The team might play harder than any team in the country and despite playing a short rotation are in great shape. The commitment to Defense is very impressive and they sort of remind me of that UAB team that made the Sweet 16 a couple seasons ago purely on their tenacious D. Furthermore the team seems to genuinly like each other and are playing confidently and with swagger. All of that is on Lavin as well. No matter what happens this year I have to say the Lavin era has been truly confusing to date. Two very enjoyable teams and two utterly frustrating teams.

The people who raise their hands only when Lavin has failed have been quiet, or at best, absolutely full of shit, but he's done well this year, and his roster isn't empty after the starting 5. Jordan, Jones, Delarosa and Stewart aren't the worst bench we've ever had. If they believe in the current system and they truly buy into their roles, it can work. They all played well on Sunday given the circumstance. As per usual, it's easy to hide behind a fake name and always cry, but the people, the men, who have supported and paid for this program regardless of its success deserve this success. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the sissies who never have anything good to say about the program don't deserve to see this, but rather that they are soft, fragile sissies (students especially) who also deserve a crack or two. That is all. Only a sissy would predict failure year after year when it has proven to be the norm. State the obvious, and you get no respect. That said, f the haters. This is our year. Go St.John's.

+1 Go St. Johns! 

Honest question here:

Would the admin ever look at an extension that might protect SJU in future years. I'm not sure how you could make that work, but essentially give him the extension, and then make it easy to get out if the next 2-3 years are as bad as folks might think.

Lavin probably wouldn't want that, but who knows, maybe he would take a slight raise with a lower buyout.

Honest question here:

Would the admin ever look at an extension that might protect SJU in future years. I'm not sure how you could make that work, but essentially give him the extension, and then make it easy to get out if the next 2-3 years are as bad as folks might think.

Lavin probably wouldn't want that, but who knows, maybe he would take a slight raise with a lower buyout.

Lavin is too smart to sign something with a low buyout.