Another direction

As much as I have criticized Lavin the last 4 years, I have never once said I did not want him back. Well now I am and if what I have been told is true, Jordan thing is not even his fault. I will always be grateful to Lavin for taking away the Norm stink. He made us relevant again and gave the program much needed legitimacy. His hire was a great one and had to be made after the Norm fiasco.

The school had to distance itself from Norm's little engine that couldn't. It had to take one last shot at projecting itself as an elite basketball program. Lavin tried but unfortunately he couldn't out recruit his shortcomings. He is a shaky game coach, and the players he had to recruit brought too much baggage that did not mix well with his drama and self promotion. Besides all of that his biggest failure was ironically his biggest strength. In this day and age you can't recruit a roster that has only one legitimate three point shooter. Yet that is what we have had now for 5 years.

At the end of the day Lavin took his best shot and we were never terrible under him except for maybe his year off. And even that year was kind of fun and hopeful until Harkless left.

The best thing the program can do now is go in the direction some wanted but many were afraid of. Hire a solid X and O guy who will recruit mid major type four year players. Kids that can shoot the three. I would also like to see us recruit NY kids again. I realize that we won't get the best NYC kids but some under recruited kids with a chip has always helped us in the past. Ty Grant, Carl Beckett, Billy Singleton, heck Lamont Hamilton.

I think getting a mid major type coach and treating the program as such would be the best possible way to proceed with the program. So to me that means this should be Lavin's last year as coach.

That may be the worst idea ever. I am by now means sticking up for Lavin anymore. Would rather give him a life time contract then go that route .

That may be the worst idea ever. I am by now means sticking up for Lavin anymore. Would rather give him a life time contract then go that route .

Butler has been to more NCAA tournaments than us in the last 20 years. So your idea is to just not be any good? Ok that is what we are so congrats, school agrees with you.

As much as I have criticized Lavin the last 4 years, I have never once said I did not want him back. Well now I am and if what I have been told is true, Jordan thing is not even his fault. I will always be grateful to Lavin for taking away the Norm stink. He made us relevant again and gave the program much needed legitimacy. His hire was a great one and had to be made after the Norm fiasco. The school had to distance itself from Norm's little engine that couldn't. It had to take one last shot at projecting itself as an elite basketball program. Lavin tried but unfortunately he couldn't out recruit his shortcomings. He is a shaky game coach, and the players he had to recruit brought too much baggage that did not mix well with his drama and self promotion. Besides all of that his biggest failure was ironically his biggest strength. In this day and age you can't recruit a roster that has only one legitimate three point shooter. Yet that is what we have had now for 5 years. At the end of the day Lavin took his best shot and we were never terrible under him except for maybe his year off. And even that year was kind of fun and hopeful until Harkless left. The best thing the program can do now is go in the direction some wanted but many were afraid of. Hire a solid X and O guy who will recruit mid major type four year players. Kids that can shoot the three. I would also like to see us recruit NY kids again. I realize that we won't get the best NYC kids but some under recruited kids with a chip has always helped us in the past. Ty Grant, Carl Beckett, Billy Singleton, heck Lamont Hamilton. I think getting a mid major type coach and treating the program as such would be the best possible way to proceed with the program. So to me that means this should be Lavin's last year as coach.

At the end of the day, St.John's needs a good game coach and they need a good recruiter. On top of that, they need a coach who understands how to handle all of the bastard coaches and players in NYC. 
Lavin had a chance to do very well here, but he got in the way of himself. After he and his staff ruined the last 3 seasons, it should have been clear to him that he needed to take ownership of his own behavior as a teacher, and cut the shit. 
Because he didn't, he's done here. 

If the school went with Mckillop instead of Norm / Lavin route, would we have made more than one tourney? I say absolutely!

Guys like marquise Moore at George mason, Scoochie smith at Dayton. Mike Williams at Rutgers , Hassan Martin at URI, dingle at temple, shakmiek Shepard who initially committed to Towson was never even sniffed while at Hargrave and the list goes on are all better than the guys we've had on our bench in recent years.

If the school went with Mckillop instead of Norm / Lavin route, would we have made more than one tourney? I say absolutely!

Mckillop is no less accomplished than Jarvis was, and Jarvis was a mid major coach. Mid major coaches go to high major programs. If that's what you're suggesting, I think you're right. But we have hire a coach that can actually coach. The players will come once they that. Just like they saw that a Lavin was a bad game coach and they stopped coaching. 

With all those local colleges that hired new coaches in 2010, it appears St Johns made the worst

With all those local colleges that hired new coaches in 2010, it appears St Johns made the worst

I wouldn't say that we are still 11-3 with solid wins on our resume. The only point some of us are trying to make is It's hard to be consistently good when you can't consistently get the good to very good players in your own backyard.

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 03, 2015, 08:36:03 PM

With all those local colleges that hired new coaches in 2010, it appears St Johns made the worst

I wouldn't say that we are still 11-3 with solid wins on our resume. The only point some of us are trying to make is It's hard to be consistently good when you can't consistently get the good to very good players in your own backyard.

Does he even recruit NY?

Quote from: Chilleb on January 03, 2015, 08:39:22 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 03, 2015, 08:36:03 PM

With all those local colleges that hired new coaches in 2010, it appears St Johns made the worst

I wouldn't say that we are still 11-3 with solid wins on our resume. The only point some of us are trying to make is It's hard to be consistently good when you can't consistently get the good to very good players in your own backyard.

Does he even recruit NY?

Thus one of the few problems IMO. I think a kid like Justin wright foreman will be the next to bite us in the butt. Kid is a stud. Hofstra got a steal

This team needs a Tony Bennett type coach, one that identifies good talent to fit his system.  Then they go out, practice hard, play and coach their asses off. 

Quote from: Chilleb on January 03, 2015, 08:39:22 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 03, 2015, 08:36:03 PM

With all those local colleges that hired new coaches in 2010, it appears St Johns made the worst

I wouldn't say that we are still 11-3 with solid wins on our resume. The only point some of us are trying to make is It's hard to be consistently good when you can't consistently get the good to very good players in your own backyard.

Does he even recruit NY?

Nope. We need a guy that is going to keep that stud NYC prospect at home. Sick of losing out on or not even being in the conversation with the potential program changers like Sylven, Kemba, Lance, Whitehead. There's a program changing NYC/LI kid once every two years it seems like. And then why aren't we even getting or being seriously involved with other solid NYC area kids like Southerland, Calhoun, Kentan Facey etc. 
Hire somebody that is going to recruit the hell out of NYC and keep these kids home. There is so much talent in this city it's ridiculous. We just watch all these kids leave the area and go on and do huge things in the NCAA tournament while we're getting our asses kicked by Robert Morris in the NIT. At least Norm tried to recruit the city

With all those local colleges that hired new coaches in 2010, it appears St Johns made the worst

While I think the Lavin era has now run its course, that's a silly statement. Mike Rice?  Tom Pecora?  Willard has one good recruiting class, two good wins, and 4 years of pain. 

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 03, 2015, 08:36:03 PM

With all those local colleges that hired new coaches in 2010, it appears St Johns made the worst

While I think the Lavin era has now run its course, that's a silly statement. Mike Rice? Tom Pecora? Willard has one good recruiting class, two good wins, and 4 years of pain.

After this year the Willard hire will be far better than the Lavin hire. Will be about even after 5 years and the SHU program will be in a far better position going into next year than our program

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 03, 2015, 08:41:08 PM

Quote from: Chilleb on January 03, 2015, 08:39:22 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 03, 2015, 08:36:03 PM

With all those local colleges that hired new coaches in 2010, it appears St Johns made the worst

I wouldn't say that we are still 11-3 with solid wins on our resume. The only point some of us are trying to make is It's hard to be consistently good when you can't consistently get the good to very good players in your own backyard.

Does he even recruit NY?

Nope. We need a guy that is going to keep that stud NYC prospect at home. Sick of losing out on or not even being in the conversation with the potential program changers like Sylven, Kemba, Lance, Whitehead. There's a program changing NYC/LI kid once every two years it seems like. And then why aren't we even getting or being seriously involved with other solid NYC area kids like Southerland, Calhoun, Kentan Facey etc. Hire somebody that is going to recruit the hell out of NYC and keep these kids home. There is so much talent in this city it's ridiculous. We just watch all these kids leave the area and go on and do huge things in the NCAA tournament while we're getting our asses kicked by Robert Morris in the NIT. At least Norm tried to recruit the city

+1, how does isaiah cousins end up all the way at Oklahoma? That's the kind of stuff that kills me

Quote from: goredmen on January 03, 2015, 08:56:10 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 03, 2015, 08:41:08 PM

Quote from: Chilleb on January 03, 2015, 08:39:22 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 03, 2015, 08:36:03 PM

With all those local colleges that hired new coaches in 2010, it appears St Johns made the worst

I wouldn't say that we are still 11-3 with solid wins on our resume. The only point some of us are trying to make is It's hard to be consistently good when you can't consistently get the good to very good players in your own backyard.

Does he even recruit NY?

Nope. We need a guy that is going to keep that stud NYC prospect at home. Sick of losing out on or not even being in the conversation with the potential program changers like Sylven, Kemba, Lance, Whitehead. There's a program changing NYC/LI kid once every two years it seems like. And then why aren't we even getting or being seriously involved with other solid NYC area kids like Southerland, Calhoun, Kentan Facey etc. Hire somebody that is going to recruit the hell out of NYC and keep these kids home. There is so much talent in this city it's ridiculous. We just watch all these kids leave the area and go on and do huge things in the NCAA tournament while we're getting our asses kicked by Robert Morris in the NIT. At least Norm tried to recruit the city

+1, how does isaiah cousins end up all the way at Oklahoma? That's the kind of stuff that kills me

Watching all the local kids thriving at Seton Hall sucks

Quote from: Chilleb on January 03, 2015, 09:05:31 PM

Quote from: goredmen on January 03, 2015, 08:56:10 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 03, 2015, 08:41:08 PM

Quote from: Chilleb on January 03, 2015, 08:39:22 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 03, 2015, 08:36:03 PM

With all those local colleges that hired new coaches in 2010, it appears St Johns made the worst

I wouldn't say that we are still 11-3 with solid wins on our resume. The only point some of us are trying to make is It's hard to be consistently good when you can't consistently get the good to very good players in your own backyard.

Does he even recruit NY?

Nope. We need a guy that is going to keep that stud NYC prospect at home. Sick of losing out on or not even being in the conversation with the potential program changers like Sylven, Kemba, Lance, Whitehead. There's a program changing NYC/LI kid once every two years it seems like. And then why aren't we even getting or being seriously involved with other solid NYC area kids like Southerland, Calhoun, Kentan Facey etc. Hire somebody that is going to recruit the hell out of NYC and keep these kids home. There is so much talent in this city it's ridiculous. We just watch all these kids leave the area and go on and do huge things in the NCAA tournament while we're getting our asses kicked by Robert Morris in the NIT. At least Norm tried to recruit the city

+1, how does isaiah cousins end up all the way at Oklahoma? That's the kind of stuff that kills me

Watching all the local kids thriving at Seton Hall sucks

Fully agreed.

at this point, Mark Jackson is an upgrade with the right recruiters

It wouldn't suck as much, Baldi, if the staff did their job the past two years recruiting wise.  I love to get our share of local kids, but I (and I assume everyone else on this board, including Chilleb) had no problem when we were bringing in top 50 and top 100 kids from all over the country.  It comes down to winning.  Everyone on this board was jacked about this season, including you, prior to the Seton Hall game.  And even after the Seton Hall game we were optomistic.  Jordan's departure has exposed to even the average follower the staff's recruiting failures the past two years.  Yes, those of us diehards were well aware of this, but thought we could get away with it with our core 6 plus minutes from a few bench guys. If Sheed played today and we won, which we would have, much of the conversation would have went by the wayside.