Can this become a top 15-20 program again?

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Wods317

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Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« on: February 05, 2015, 07:40:29 PM »
I think this is a big question for us and since we don't have a game until Saturday here we go. We haven't really been a top 15 program besides a few years here and there Since Lou retired. So my question is can we ever get to that level again or is this or something slighty better/worse what we are looking at for our long term future. I think it a fair questions because of how long we have been down and how much adversity the program has been through. I think we still play in a very good conference, can recruit high level players, and obviously play at MSG all of which are in our favor but there are just as many things I think that are going against us. Think this is a nice compliment to the Head Coaches Post Louie thread, looking more to the future. I would like to hear what you guys think and not have this turn into a Lavin debate, think more long term. Thoughts?

Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2015, 07:46:22 PM »
No.
Go get a good game coach that recruits shooters and embrace being a mid major. Until we do that we will never even make another tourney

Poison

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Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2015, 08:09:42 PM »
No.
Go get a good game coach that recruits shooters and embrace being a mid major. Until we do that we will never even make another tourney

I don't see how that makes us a mid major.

St.John's hasn't looked for a good game coach because they don't think it's important and also because they don't understand what that means. Nothing has hurt this program more than Father Harrington, and he's gone now. Thank God.

Whether we can return to our former glory will depend on the new school leadership at St.John's. How much pride do they have in the program? How much does seeing it succeed really matter to them? And, what is their definition of success?

If Lavin's seniors continue to slip further out of contention and his contract isn't renewed, is St.John's going to be willing to pay the money that it would take to bring a legit program changing coach here?

If we hire another clueless assistant or some has been who failed at his last coaching job, I think we have our answer.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 08:11:11 PM by Poison »

Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2015, 08:23:56 PM »
No.
Go get a good game coach that recruits shooters and embrace being a mid major. Until we do that we will never even make another tourney

I don't see how that makes us a mid major.

St.John's hasn't looked for a good game coach because they don't think it's important and also because they don't understand what that means. Nothing has hurt this program more than Father Harrington, and he's gone now. Thank God.

Whether we can return to our former glory will depend on the new school leadership at St.John's. How much pride do they have in the program? How much does seeing it succeed really matter to them? And, what is their definition of success?

If Lavin's seniors continue to slip further out of contention and his contract isn't renewed, is St.John's going to be willing to pay the money that it would take to bring a legit program changing coach here?

If we hire another clueless assistant or some has been who failed at his last coaching job, I think we have our answer.

Lavin can't recruit here the way he did at UCLA. Just getting a bunch of great athletes works at UCLA if you get a bunch of Mickey D all Americans. In this day and age the fact that we are always near the bottom in 3 point shooting is ridiculous. Get a coach, as all mid major types do that emphasizes the three and recruit accordingly. Go after system guys. It would help if the next coach actually had a system of course.

Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2015, 08:30:46 PM »
No.
Go get a good game coach that recruits shooters and embrace being a mid major. Until we do that we will never even make another tourney

I don't see how that makes us a mid major.

St.John's hasn't looked for a good game coach because they don't think it's important and also because they don't understand what that means. Nothing has hurt this program more than Father Harrington, and he's gone now. Thank God.

Whether we can return to our former glory will depend on the new school leadership at St.John's. How much pride do they have in the program? How much does seeing it succeed really matter to them? And, what is their definition of success?

If Lavin's seniors continue to slip further out of contention and his contract isn't renewed, is St.John's going to be willing to pay the money that it would take to bring a legit program changing coach here?

If we hire another clueless assistant or some has been who failed at his last coaching job, I think we have our answer.

Lavin can't recruit here the way he did at UCLA. Just getting a bunch of great athletes works at UCLA if you get a bunch of Mickey D all Americans. In this day and age the fact that we are always near the bottom in 3 point shooting is ridiculous. Get a coach, as all mid major types do that emphasizes the three and recruit accordingly. Go after system guys. It would help if the next coach actually had a system of course.
Sounds familiar

TONYD3

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Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2015, 08:47:30 PM »
I was stupid enough to think we were a top team this year. Mcdermott seems to me like the smartest coach in the Big East. He won last year with players. Without them he is losing. A smart game coach is sounds great, someone has to recruit. Jarvis looked great when he had the riverside church team behind him. Not so good without them.

Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2015, 08:51:28 PM »
Yep.

boo3

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Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2015, 09:28:39 PM »
We need to start recruiting shooters... You can't win consistently at that level without having kids that can hit the open 3..  Plain and simple..  Hopefully Brandon Sampson is one of those kids.   I don't consider D-lo one.. He's a scorer and a streaky one.

Poison

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Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2015, 09:36:31 PM »
I was stupid enough to think we were a top team this year. Mcdermott seems to me like the smartest coach in the Big East. He won last year with players. Without them he is losing. A smart game coach is sounds great, someone has to recruit. Jarvis looked great when he had the riverside church team behind him. Not so good without them.

When you make the NCAA tournament most seasons, a fan base can accept a down or rebuilding year.

Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2015, 09:54:50 PM »
Lavin has us on our own postseason ban

Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2015, 10:09:54 PM »
The right coach can make the program a team that is a perennial NCAA tourney team with a few "down" years as a NIT/other side of the bubble squad.   Consistent top 15-20 - likely not.  Consistent tournament team - yes.  There is money to pay for the right guy and plenty of things to sell.  As Baldi said quite appropriately, Lavin brought in some of the best recruits the program has seen in 20 years.  The right guy can get talent, develop AND coach.

Foad

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Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2015, 07:41:08 AM »
Again?

Wods317

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Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2015, 09:35:04 AM »
Again?

It's been a while but there was a time late 70s to early 90s we made the tournament 15 outta 17 years I think it was. Throw in 5 regular season conference championships, 3 elite eight appearances and a final four. Also two wooden award winners and being ranked number 1 in the country. That's a top 15-20 program no debate.

Foad

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Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2015, 10:07:11 AM »
That's a top 15-20 program no debate.

I can't be arsed to get into a big thing but trust me, there's a debate. Between 1960 and 1990 SJU was ranked 20 or higher 7 times in the final AP poll. That's 20 percent of the time. Of the 4 times they were in the top ten, three of those were when Mullin was on the team and the other time was in 1968, when Mullin was 5 years old.

During those same years Marquette was ranked in the top 10 ten times. DePaul was in the top 10 7 times.

Villanova was ranked in the top 20 7 times. So was Utah. Here are some more of our peers: Davidson, Western Kentucky, Providence, Long  Beach State, all ranked in the top 20 at least 5 times in those 30 years.



Tiger

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Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2015, 11:15:38 AM »
In what time period?  If you mean in the next million years, the answer is yes.  If you mean in the next 25 years, the answer is probably not.

Look at most urban schools - Providence (better academic institution), Northeastern (better academic institution), Boston University (better academic institution), Loyola (better academic institution).  De Paul competes academically with SJU and their basketball seems to be on the upswing, but they are a long way from being a basketball power. 

Urban schools can't compete with suburban and rural schools when it comes to the attractiveness of the campus.  When most high school kids describe their dream college, they will describe tree lined roads, ivy covered buildings, some lawn area, an active campus life.  SJU offers none of that.  As a consequence, SJU will be at a recruiting disadvantage for at least the next 25 years.

Fortunately, in the next million years,  SJU should be able to recruit a kid who is an athletic 6-3 guard in high school, but then has a growth spurt and arrives on campus as a 6-9 freak  :D.  And to make it better, he has a girl friend on campus so he stays for his sophomore year. :2funny:

derk

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Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2015, 01:26:37 PM »
We need to start recruiting shooters... You can't win consistently at that level without having kids that can hit the open 3..  Plain and simple..  Hopefully Brandon Sampson is one of those kids.   I don't consider D-lo one.. He's a scorer and a streaky one.

Shooters who are also passers so they can open up the floor to gain space for their shot.

Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2015, 02:01:04 PM »
I went to Nova from 2000-04 and got to watch the following in person...

2000-01   Steve Lappas   18-13   8-8   NIT First round
2001-02   Jay Wright   19-13   7-9   NIT Second round
2002-03   Jay Wright   15-16   8-8   NIT First round
2003-04   Jay Wright   18-17   6-10   NIT First round

There was a phone card scandal (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/09/sports/basketball-villanova-is-latest-to-face-scandal.html), Jason Fraser's 600 knee surgeries, St Joe's dominant 2002-03 season, etc

Then things picked up. You have to have strong recruiting, but recruit the right guys that fit your system. You have to also have a good system, offensive and defensive plans, good Xs and Os, and some luck (ncaa allowing scottie reynolds to decommit from oklahoma)

This season is over, obviously. Next season looks atrocious (i dont expect Obekpa or Jordan to be here). We have 2 recruits.  I see the blame resting solely on Lavin.
St John's is not Kentucky, Duke, UNC, etc and cant rely on the McDonalds all-american one-and-one Okafor types. They must find a way to fill the team with above average 3-4 year players like Nova has repeatedly done.

Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2015, 02:12:00 PM »
[quote author=Tiger link=topic=9258.msg219049#msg219049 date=1423239338]
In what time period?  If you mean in the next million years, the answer is yes.  If you mean in the next 25 years, the answer is probably not.

Look at most urban schools - Providence (better academic institution), Northeastern (better academic institution), Boston University (better academic institution), Loyola (better academic institution).  De Paul competes academically with SJU and their basketball seems to be on the upswing, but they are a long way from being a basketball power. 

Urban schools can't compete with suburban and rural schools when it comes to the attractiveness of the campus.  When most high school kids describe their dream college, they will describe tree lined roads, ivy covered buildings, some lawn area, an active campus life.  SJU offers none of that.  As a consequence, SJU will be at a recruiting disadvantage for at least the next 25 years.

Fortunately, in the next million years,  SJU should be able to recruit a kid who is an athletic 6-3 guard in high school, but then has a growth spurt and arrives on campus as a 6-9 freak  :D .  And to make it better, he has a girl friend on campus so he stays for his sophomore year. :2funny:
[/quote] Good points made, but as with most things in life, probably not might be the case if only for the current and future landscape of college bball. 


Even if one day we get "that" coach, the one who will put together the recruiting, winning bball, academics, excitement, etc., all in one beautiful ball of NYC, it probably will not be able to be sustained to make it even a debate if we will arguably become a perennial top 15-20 program. 


However, your breakdown of the "urban vs. suburban" and other desirable qualities in a school looked at by players, I think the majority of players have a more limited view of what they want: A winning team, either short term (last 10, even 5 years) or long term overall (might be some recent down years); playing time, thereby helping the player's chance to get to the pros, whether NBA or overseas; a good vibe with current players and the head coach/staff; and any "wild cards" (campus, top notch facilities, dorms, girls, etc.)


Every case has exceptions, but at the end of the day, the coach and staff have the most sway.  There are many examples of schools that are outside of your criteria that are getting it done with lesser qualities than SJ's has to offer.  But those coaches are getting it done.  VCU was nothing before Anthony Grant.  When I was down in Richmond in the late 90s, early 2000s, it was really run down by a lot of the spread campus in the city. It was nothing to write home about.  The housing recession hit Richmond a little bit later than DC or NYC, but the budget for renovations since the late 2000s pressed on for VCU.  When I'm down there these past 5 years (my daughter's in pre-dental program), it's incredible to see all the infrastructure build up in the city really following along with the school's additional buildup.  Every case is different.  That being said, after seeing how beautiful SJ's campus has become, I'd probably still choose SJ's for what I wanted in a school.  But I'm not a recruit looking through that lens.  Go through programs that were nothing that have been getting it done the past 10 years - Zaga, before going to 16 straight tourney appearances, just had Dan Munson's 3 year run, one appearance in '95, and nothing else to speak of but a pedestrian .540 win pct. for the preceding 50 years.  With Smart and Few, both schools are positioned to continue their run of recent success.  With 4,800 undergrads in a private school setting, I've never heard the Gonzaga campus talked about like a Pepperdine or some other "blow you away" beautiful campus school.  Players started going there because of Mark Few and his success. 


We need "that" guy that can put all the pieces together.  It is not easy as we know.  We need an administration that's willing to go all out to make sure the infrastructure is there to the utmost of their resources, and I don't think SJ's is there fully - no one on this board would argue that. However, solid strides have been made getting the resources in line to get the program back where it should be - one that should be having (at a minimum) some really good years (top 3 conf.), some good years (top 5 conf.), and maybe a few down years every ten or so year time frames. This is my measuring stick in today's Beast.  It is attainable, and striving for anything less is a disservice to the program's history.  Winning it all?  Well, a long shot at best in the current 2A environment.  Is it ok to not be confident about the chances for a title - I think so. It doesn't mean we should accept having mundane teams most years.


       

Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2015, 02:17:20 PM »

This season is over, obviously.

Far from over
*wipes ketchup from his eyes* - I guess Heinz sight isn’t 20/20.

Re: Can this become a top 15-20 program again?
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2015, 02:22:33 PM »
I said this long ago. Big East is slowly turning into an upper mid major type conference.  Recruit smart players who can shoot and have some sort of IQ, build from there