Which non in-game coaching event most greatly affected Lav's first 5 years?

Otto Porter was a first team all american and BE poy as a sophomore. You CANNOT tell me that he was a better college player than Moe was. If Moe stays he is BE poy and he is an all american.

You can say that each one of these are connected and caused by one another, but if you look at them as completely separate. Losing Moe was huge. Its really too bad for us. Great for Moe to get drafted. But bad for us.

Lot of options, interested to see the result.  FYI this is not some sort of poll to act like it's not Lavin's fault (option 4 definitely is, and option 3 kind of implies that it was Dunlap, not Lavin, that had us play so well in year 1, actually). 

Personally I think it's Dunlap's departure.  He seems like an all business guy that cares so much about winning, and was obviously huge to the 2011 team playing well and player development.  If he was still with the staff another 1 or 2 years I think 1) the staff would never have taken it easy on the recruiting trail (not that dunlap would have been signing big time recruits, but that his presence would never have allowed a relaxed year), and 2) our guys would have improved quicker and team would have played better, so we prob make the tourney last year.

Otto Porter was a first team all american and BE poy as a sophomore. You CANNOT tell me that he was a better college player than Moe was. If Moe stays he is BE poy and he is an all american.

You can say that each one of these are connected and caused by one another, but if you look at them as completely separate. Losing Moe was huge. Its really too bad for us. Great for Moe to get drafted. But bad for us.

Quote from: Tha Kid on March 23, 2015, 09:46:47 AM

Lot of options, interested to see the result.  FYI this is not some sort of poll to act like it's not Lavin's fault (option 4 definitely is, and option 3 kind of implies that it was Dunlap, not Lavin, that had us play so well in year 1, actually). 

Personally I think it's Dunlap's departure.  He seems like an all business guy that cares so much about winning, and was obviously huge to the 2011 team playing well and player development.  If he was still with the staff another 1 or 2 years I think 1) the staff would never have taken it easy on the recruiting trail (not that dunlap would have been signing big time recruits, but that his presence would never have allowed a relaxed year), and 2) our guys would have improved quicker and team would have played better, so we prob make the tourney last year.

Not that Dunlap signed players off his own effort as you said, but I recall some articles and posters stating he connected really well with some recruits. I cannot recall which ones, but I bet some on here remember.

Quote from: bball purist on March 23, 2015, 07:50:12 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on March 23, 2015, 09:46:47 AM

Lot of options, interested to see the result.  FYI this is not some sort of poll to act like it's not Lavin's fault (option 4 definitely is, and option 3 kind of implies that it was Dunlap, not Lavin, that had us play so well in year 1, actually). 

Personally I think it's Dunlap's departure.  He seems like an all business guy that cares so much about winning, and was obviously huge to the 2011 team playing well and player development.  If he was still with the staff another 1 or 2 years I think 1) the staff would never have taken it easy on the recruiting trail (not that dunlap would have been signing big time recruits, but that his presence would never have allowed a relaxed year), and 2) our guys would have improved quicker and team would have played better, so we prob make the tourney last year.

Not that Dunlap signed players off his own effort as you said, but I recall some articles and posters stating he connected really well with some recruits. I cannot recall which ones, but I bet some on here remember.

The post Norm players for the most part, didn't like him. He wanted them to work hard, and they didn't like that. Lindsay even quit because of it, but clearly Dunlap was the problem there because Lindsay is thriving as a point guard in the NBA.

Remember the bat?  I don't think they liked that.

Quote from: Tha Kid on March 23, 2015, 09:46:47 AM

Lot of options, interested to see the result.  FYI this is not some sort of poll to act like it's not Lavin's fault (option 4 definitely is, and option 3 kind of implies that it was Dunlap, not Lavin, that had us play so well in year 1, actually). 

Personally I think it's Dunlap's departure.  He seems like an all business guy that cares so much about winning, and was obviously huge to the 2011 team playing well and player development.  If he was still with the staff another 1 or 2 years I think 1) the staff would never have taken it easy on the recruiting trail (not that dunlap would have been signing big time recruits, but that his presence would never have allowed a relaxed year), and 2) our guys would have improved quicker and team would have played better, so we prob make the tourney last year.

Not that Dunlap signed players off his own effort as you said, but I recall some articles and posters stating he connected really well with some recruits. I cannot recall which ones, but I bet some on here remember.

I think the turning point was how coach handled his illness and recovery.   You can't fault a person for falling ill, but if they're dedicated to the organization they should be expected to make the right decision about when and how they return.
If he couldn't coach in September, he shouldn't have. 
If he was able to come back in February, he should have. 

His wishy-washyness is what cost us on the recruiting trail, and what fed rumors by other coaches.    He needed to send a clear message, and he didn't.

I think the turning point was how coach handled his illness and recovery.   You can't fault a person for falling ill, but if they're dedicated to the organization they should be expected to make the right decision about when and how they return.
If he couldn't coach in September, he shouldn't have. 
If he was able to come back in February, he should have. 

His wishy-washyness is what cost us on the recruiting trail, and what fed rumors by other coaches.    He needed to send a clear message, and he didn't.

Quote from: desco80 on March 23, 2015, 06:01:15 PM

I think the turning point was how coach handled his illness and recovery.   You can't fault a person for falling ill, but if they're dedicated to the organization they should be expected to make the right decision about when and how they return.
If he couldn't coach in September, he shouldn't have. 
If he was able to come back in February, he should have. 

His wishy-washyness is what cost us on the recruiting trail, and what fed rumors by other coaches.    He needed to send a clear message, and he didn't.

Agree.  He let blood accumulate in the waters around the program.  Lost a lot of momentum.  Rumor mill was churning butter about us.

There is some truth to that.  But that is easily correctable.  He is healthy and assuming he gets the extension he will be re-invigorated.  He knows how to recruit.  He got lazy in some respects.

He knows that can't happen again.  He is not stupid.  He does not want to be fired again.  He does not want to fail again.

And he knows regardless of the length of the extension the important part is the buyout.  He knows if we are here in 2 years lamenting back to back mediocre seasons he will be on the phone with ESPN looking for a gig.

His problems are correctable.  It is up to him to re-dedicate himself.

Quote from: desco80 on March 23, 2015, 06:01:15 PM

I think the turning point was how coach handled his illness and recovery.   You can't fault a person for falling ill, but if they're dedicated to the organization they should be expected to make the right decision about when and how they return.
If he couldn't coach in September, he shouldn't have. 
If he was able to come back in February, he should have. 

His wishy-washyness is what cost us on the recruiting trail, and what fed rumors by other coaches.    He needed to send a clear message, and he didn't.

Agree.  He let blood accumulate in the waters around the program.  Lost a lot of momentum.  Rumor mill was churning butter about us.

Quote from: desco80 on March 23, 2015, 06:01:15 PM

I think the turning point was how coach handled his illness and recovery.   You can't fault a person for falling ill, but if they're dedicated to the organization they should be expected to make the right decision about when and how they return.
If he couldn't coach in September, he shouldn't have. 
If he was able to come back in February, he should have. 

His wishy-washyness is what cost us on the recruiting trail, and what fed rumors by other coaches.    He needed to send a clear message, and he didn't.

Agree.  He let blood accumulate in the waters around the program.  Lost a lot of momentum.  Rumor mill was churning butter about us.

There is some truth to that.  But that is easily correctable.  He is healthy and assuming he gets the extension he will be re-invigorated.  He knows how to recruit.  He got lazy in some respects.

He knows that can't happen again.  He is not stupid.  He does not want to be fired again.  He does not want to fail again.

And he knows regardless of the length of the extension the important part is the buyout.  He knows if we are here in 2 years lamenting back to back mediocre seasons he will be on the phone with ESPN looking for a gig.

His problems are correctable.  It is up to him to re-dedicate himself.

Quote from: fordham96 on March 25, 2015, 10:30:29 PM

Quote from: desco80 on March 23, 2015, 06:01:15 PM

I think the turning point was how coach handled his illness and recovery.   You can't fault a person for falling ill, but if they're dedicated to the organization they should be expected to make the right decision about when and how they return.
If he couldn't coach in September, he shouldn't have. 
If he was able to come back in February, he should have. 

His wishy-washyness is what cost us on the recruiting trail, and what fed rumors by other coaches.    He needed to send a clear message, and he didn't.

Agree.  He let blood accumulate in the waters around the program.  Lost a lot of momentum.  Rumor mill was churning butter about us.


There is some truth to that.  But that is easily correctable.  He is healthy and assuming he gets the extension he will be re-invigorated.  He knows how to recruit.  He got lazy in some respects.

He knows that can't happen again.  He is not stupid.  He does not want to be fired again.  He does not want to fail again.

And he knows regardless of the length of the extension the important part is the buyout.  He knows if we are here in 2 years lamenting back to back mediocre seasons he will be on the phone with ESPN looking for a gig.

His problems are correctable.  It is up to him to re-dedicate himself.

With all due respect, I don't get this.  I am an extremely competitive person.  If I have a chance to sell players and go get players, and that's gonna dictate the success of the team, to a large degree, then I'm going to do that.  Is Lavin not competitive? 

The quote about him not feeling any pressure to win really kills me.  Let's say  there is no external pressure.  Fine.  Let's say all the negatives are true about us, our fan base, et cetera, the university is just happy to be there, all that.  Doesn't he feel internal pressure?  When the game is over & we lose, he turns to do the handshake & he's congratulating the other team's assistants...on his way to a fat dinner in his chauffeured car...he does not seem to sweat losses.  There's never any avarice, not much rivalry talk in the press...we hate them, they hate us et c.....

I'd like to see it to know it's there.  You'd think maybe he would want to win bc bringing us up would be so huge, or to win for his buddy Keady, who was a far better coach than him and never won....

When a coach needs to rededicate himself, he usually needs to do it elsewhere.

Quote from: francois arouet on March 25, 2015, 11:21:22 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on March 25, 2015, 10:30:29 PM

Quote from: desco80 on March 23, 2015, 06:01:15 PM

I think the turning point was how coach handled his illness and recovery.   You can't fault a person for falling ill, but if they're dedicated to the organization they should be expected to make the right decision about when and how they return.
If he couldn't coach in September, he shouldn't have. 
If he was able to come back in February, he should have. 

His wishy-washyness is what cost us on the recruiting trail, and what fed rumors by other coaches.    He needed to send a clear message, and he didn't.

Agree.  He let blood accumulate in the waters around the program.  Lost a lot of momentum.  Rumor mill was churning butter about us.


There is some truth to that.  But that is easily correctable.  He is healthy and assuming he gets the extension he will be re-invigorated.  He knows how to recruit.  He got lazy in some respects.

He knows that can't happen again.  He is not stupid.  He does not want to be fired again.  He does not want to fail again.

And he knows regardless of the length of the extension the important part is the buyout.  He knows if we are here in 2 years lamenting back to back mediocre seasons he will be on the phone with ESPN looking for a gig.

His problems are correctable.  It is up to him to re-dedicate himself.

With all due respect, I don't get this.  I am an extremely competitive person.  If I have a chance to sell players and go get players, and that's gonna dictate the success of the team, to a large degree, then I'm going to do that.  Is Lavin not competitive? 

The quote about him not feeling any pressure to win really kills me.  Let's say  there is no external pressure.  Fine.  Let's say all the negatives are true about us, our fan base, et cetera, the university is just happy to be there, all that.  Doesn't he feel internal pressure?  When the game is over & we lose, he turns to do the handshake & he's congratulating the other team's assistants...on his way to a fat dinner in his chauffeured car...he does not seem to sweat losses.  There's never any avarice, not much rivalry talk in the press...we hate them, they hate us et c.....

I'd like to see it to know it's there.  You'd think maybe he would want to win bc bringing us up would be so huge, or to win for his buddy Keady, who was a far better coach than him and never won....

When a coach needs to rededicate himself, he usually needs to do it elsewhere.

No Gary Williams at Maryland had a lull shortly after he won the NC in 2002.  I think you see it in college football.  Bob Stoops has slipped at Oklahoma.  But he talks openly about re-dedicating himself.

I think he got caught a big flat footed last year with the 0-5 start and then losing JaKarr early.  Because last year is what this whole thing comes down to.  If they had won 1 or 2 more last year they would have made the NCAA's and we would not even be having this discussion.

Not to excuse it but let's not act like they went 15-21 in the BE these last two years either.

Quote from: fordham96 on March 25, 2015, 10:30:29 PM

Quote from: desco80 on March 23, 2015, 06:01:15 PM

I think the turning point was how coach handled his illness and recovery.   You can't fault a person for falling ill, but if they're dedicated to the organization they should be expected to make the right decision about when and how they return.
If he couldn't coach in September, he shouldn't have. 
If he was able to come back in February, he should have. 

His wishy-washyness is what cost us on the recruiting trail, and what fed rumors by other coaches.    He needed to send a clear message, and he didn't.

Agree.  He let blood accumulate in the waters around the program.  Lost a lot of momentum.  Rumor mill was churning butter about us.

There is some truth to that.  But that is easily correctable.  He is healthy and assuming he gets the extension he will be re-invigorated.  He knows how to recruit.  He got lazy in some respects.

He knows that can't happen again.  He is not stupid.  He does not want to be fired again.  He does not want to fail again.

And he knows regardless of the length of the extension the important part is the buyout.  He knows if we are here in 2 years lamenting back to back mediocre seasons he will be on the phone with ESPN looking for a gig.

His problems are correctable.  It is up to him to re-dedicate himself.

The question is can he salvage the '15 class?  Outside of a few kids, he's missed out on all of his major targets.

Quote from: DoodyNY33 on March 25, 2015, 10:40:30 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on March 25, 2015, 10:30:29 PM

Quote from: desco80 on March 23, 2015, 06:01:15 PM

I think the turning point was how coach handled his illness and recovery.   You can't fault a person for falling ill, but if they're dedicated to the organization they should be expected to make the right decision about when and how they return.
If he couldn't coach in September, he shouldn't have. 
If he was able to come back in February, he should have. 

His wishy-washyness is what cost us on the recruiting trail, and what fed rumors by other coaches.    He needed to send a clear message, and he didn't.

Agree.  He let blood accumulate in the waters around the program.  Lost a lot of momentum.  Rumor mill was churning butter about us.

There is some truth to that.  But that is easily correctable.  He is healthy and assuming he gets the extension he will be re-invigorated.  He knows how to recruit.  He got lazy in some respects.

He knows that can't happen again.  He is not stupid.  He does not want to be fired again.  He does not want to fail again.

And he knows regardless of the length of the extension the important part is the buyout.  He knows if we are here in 2 years lamenting back to back mediocre seasons he will be on the phone with ESPN looking for a gig.

His problems are correctable.  It is up to him to re-dedicate himself.

The question is can he salvage the '15 class?  Outside of a few kids, he's missed out on all of his major targets.

Besides IB, which other major targets has he missed out on in '15? Diallo's decision will be a big one.

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on March 26, 2015, 12:32:50 AM

Quote from: DoodyNY33 on March 25, 2015, 10:40:30 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on March 25, 2015, 10:30:29 PM

Quote from: desco80 on March 23, 2015, 06:01:15 PM

I think the turning point was how coach handled his illness and recovery.   You can't fault a person for falling ill, but if they're dedicated to the organization they should be expected to make the right decision about when and how they return.
If he couldn't coach in September, he shouldn't have. 
If he was able to come back in February, he should have. 

His wishy-washyness is what cost us on the recruiting trail, and what fed rumors by other coaches.    He needed to send a clear message, and he didn't.

Agree.  He let blood accumulate in the waters around the program.  Lost a lot of momentum.  Rumor mill was churning butter about us.

There is some truth to that.  But that is easily correctable.  He is healthy and assuming he gets the extension he will be re-invigorated.  He knows how to recruit.  He got lazy in some respects.

He knows that can't happen again.  He is not stupid.  He does not want to be fired again.  He does not want to fail again.

And he knows regardless of the length of the extension the important part is the buyout.  He knows if we are here in 2 years lamenting back to back mediocre seasons he will be on the phone with ESPN looking for a gig.

His problems are correctable.  It is up to him to re-dedicate himself.

The question is can he salvage the '15 class?  Outside of a few kids, he's missed out on all of his major targets.

Besides IB, which other major targets has he missed out on in '15? Diallo's decision will be a big one.

We haven't been linked to anyone other than Briscoe and Diallo this year. Lavin hasn't really made much noise on the recruiting front since signing Jordan. I think it's only fair to ask him what's up? Why did St.John's stop recruiting?