Mullin's staff

question is would jordan or obekpa be coming back with what was left over, not what the roster is now. And yes i know when they saw the 2 assistants they knew we would have alot of new recruits, ect.

enough about Lavin, let us move on.  A new day is here and let's hope it is sunny.

Desco, please imagine how uncomfortable you'd be coaching a basketball game on national TV, without being able to control your bladder. And that's assuming that was the only issue. Have some empathy.

Again, I believe you guys misunderstand what I'm saying.  My critique is not that he needed time off, or that it was too long, or that he tried to coach and found out he couldn't.
All of that is a reasonable and somewhat foreseeable effect of having the cancer he did, and the procedure he did.     That's all understandable to me.

What I critize Steve Lavin for is how he left the program in his absence, and how he handled his absence.    You are either able to lead the program or you're not, and you take a leave of absence.   
It was a distraction and confusing to players and recruits when he was jetsetting around recruiting players but not coaching his own team in meaningful games.   

Look at this timeline and explain to me how he handled this properly:
Fall 2010:  Doctors detect cancer
April 2011: SL announces he has cancer and is undergoing treatment in the offseason.  says "This past fall I didn't want to distract our team, but with the season behind us, we are now working with medical experts and taking the proper steps to tackle this health challenge head on"     But yet, he didn't.  At the time, Jim Calhoun wishes him luck and says ""I underwent surgery; he may not," Calhoun said. "But after the surgery I was back coaching in 12 days.    Jim Boehim , who was diagnosed in 2001, says "We talked about a number of things. I think he's in real good position to handle this."
Boeheim said the treatment should not keep Lavin from his coaching responsibilities."Once he starts whatever he decides as a treatment he should be done with it within a short period of time," he said.
Our own Chris Monasch says: "We do not anticipate any disruption in his duties as our head coach, and thank all in advance for their support of Steve and respect for his family's privacy."

Oct 2011: SL has surgery.   
Nov 2011:  SL coaches 4 games.
Dec-Jan-Feb-March:  SL coaches 0 games, attends games in a luxury suite, flys around the country recruiting.  Lavin self describes himself as in "general manager mode", and may not return until next season.
April 2011: SL does studio analysis for CBSsports

How does that timeline make sense?    As head coach you have a responsibility the organization to see that your absence is handled properly.   CEOs have surgery and take leaves of absence, everyone wants them to take all the time they need to recover, but plan your absence in a responsible way.   SL did not do that.

Contrary to popular opinion around here, I'm not a monster.  I feel for the man and what he went through physcially, and I understand the embarrassing sideeffects his surgery can have.   
Thats why I dont blame him for not coming back right away or for choosing not to coach game x, or game y.    Come back when you're ready, I'm completely supportive of that.
But if you're feeling well enough to try to coach in November (4 games in a row),  there is no way you can't coach in February or March.   I just don't buy that.
And his job is to come back when he's able.   Not before, but also certainly not to take more time than he needs either.
I also think his presence at games, but not coaching, is a distraction and frankly unheard of.   If you can be there, then coach.  If you can't coach, stay home and rest.   

I hope this clears things up, because I believe I have a legitimate criticism that is being framed as if I'm not appreciating what the man went through.  And that's not the case.

Desco, not sure how young you are but life is not so simple. You criticize a guy for trying to come back too soon? He tried his best. That is wrong? . I am sure his doctors said it was ok to try. But it did not work. So you complain? Bladder problems are horrific. I hope you and your loved ones never have to go through it. But for those of us who have been around, what Lavin tried to do, and ultimately had to settle for, was perfectly understandable. You say having Lavin in the building  was a distraction? And that is based on what? Since you were not in the locker room, your opinion is worth zero. You can speculate but it is not based on anything tangible. And it is unnecessary and mean spirited. You criticize him because he was in the CBS studio in April? Think there is a difference between readily available bathrooms in a studio, as opposed to being on sidelines in front of thousands. Lavin had a serious prostate operation that took hours longer than anticipated because of complications. Diapers and leakage are facts of life after such an operation.  Lavin tries his best and you call him irresponsible for trying.  Criticize Lavin for poor coaching, but this attack is just way off base. The irony here, of course, is that your hate for Lavin is such that if he had not tried to come back early, you would have criticized him for that. Please, let's end this discussion.

Some things are more important then basketball. I think that's really all that needs to be said. Lets get back to Mullins staff which still has a few empty spots. He must have a couple verbal commitments for sure to wait this long.

This thread is absolutely pathetic..

He tried his best.

No he didn't. Either that or he's an incompetent buffoon. Take your pick.

Desco, not sure how young you are but life is not so simple. You criticize a guy for trying to come back too soon? He tried his best. That is wrong? . I am sure his doctors said it was ok to try. But it did not work. So you complain? Bladder problems are horrific. I hope you and your loved ones never have to go through it. But for those of us who have been around, what Lavin tried to do, and ultimately had to settle for, was perfectly understandable. You say having Lavin in the building  was a distraction? And that is based on what? Since you were not in the locker room, your opinion is worth zero. You can speculate but it is not based on anything tangible. And it is unnecessary and mean spirited. You criticize him because he was in the CBS studio in April? Think there is a difference between readily available bathrooms in a studio, as opposed to being on sidelines in front of thousands. Lavin had a serious prostate operation that took hours longer than anticipated because of complications. Diapers and leakage are facts of life after such an operation.  Lavin tries his best and you call him irresponsible for trying.  Criticize Lavin for poor coaching, but this attack is just way off base. The irony here, of course, is that your hate for Lavin is such that if he had not tried to come back early, you would have criticized him for that. Please, let's end this discussion.

I specifically don't criticize him for coming back too soon Loughlin.   I get that.  Makes a lot of sense.
But I disagree that it doesn't matter if he's in the building.  It may not be a distraction (I think it is) but it's certainly a terrible perception.   Its akin to a guy on disability or social security posting photographs from his latest vacation skiing or lounging on the beach.    If you can't coach, you shouldn't be announcing on tv that season.    You also shouldn't be schmoozing with felipe and other celebrities from a suite during our games, or flying to Cali to recruit when the team is flying to Marquette for a game.

That was a very trying season for the team, they were severely undermanned.   Lavin's job was to come back and join his team as soon as he could.
Which at first he tried to do, and he had some complications.  That's unfortunate.
But then he seemingly gave up on the season and started doing everything BUT coaching.    His responsibility was to come back when he could. 
If that was for 1 game, 2 games... whatever his health permitted.     But I don't believe he couldn't coach 4 months later.   Based on the typical recovery time (which I understand can vary significantly) but also based on all the other activities he was doing.     Again, he had a responsibility to come back when he could.   
He did the equivalent of milking an injury and staying on the DL longer than necessary.      Fans criticize players for that all the time.   

And it fits in with a pattern that began to develop, whereby he displayed a lack of respect for St Johns.    Mock what you don't understand, but I ask you this: would he have done the same things if he was coaching at UCLA?
I don't believe he would have.    Just like I don't believe he would've started wearing sweatsuits.
By his own admission he felt no pressure to succeed here, and that attitude was reflected in how he treated his job.   

Quote from: redstorm212 on May 06, 2015, 12:00:13 PM

Desco, please imagine how uncomfortable you'd be coaching a basketball game on national TV, without being able to control your bladder. And that's assuming that was the only issue. Have some empathy.

Again, I believe you guys misunderstand what I'm saying.  My critique is not that he needed time off, or that it was too long, or that he tried to coach and found out he couldn't.
All of that is a reasonable and somewhat foreseeable effect of having the cancer he did, and the procedure he did.     That's all understandable to me.

What I critize Steve Lavin for is how he left the program in his absence, and how he handled his absence.    You are either able to lead the program or you're not, and you take a leave of absence.   
It was a distraction and confusing to players and recruits when he was jetsetting around recruiting players but not coaching his own team in meaningful games.   

Look at this timeline and explain to me how he handled this properly:
Fall 2010:  Doctors detect cancer
April 2011: SL announces he has cancer and is undergoing treatment in the offseason.  says "This past fall I didn't want to distract our team, but with the season behind us, we are now working with medical experts and taking the proper steps to tackle this health challenge head on"     But yet, he didn't.  At the time, Jim Calhoun wishes him luck and says ""I underwent surgery; he may not," Calhoun said. "But after the surgery I was back coaching in 12 days.    Jim Boehim , who was diagnosed in 2001, says "We talked about a number of things. I think he's in real good position to handle this."
Boeheim said the treatment should not keep Lavin from his coaching responsibilities."Once he starts whatever he decides as a treatment he should be done with it within a short period of time," he said.
Our own Chris Monasch says: "We do not anticipate any disruption in his duties as our head coach, and thank all in advance for their support of Steve and respect for his family's privacy."

Oct 2011: SL has surgery.   
Nov 2011:  SL coaches 4 games.
Dec-Jan-Feb-March:  SL coaches 0 games, attends games in a luxury suite, flys around the country recruiting.  Lavin self describes himself as in "general manager mode", and may not return until next season.
April 2011: SL does studio analysis for CBSsports

How does that timeline make sense?    As head coach you have a responsibility the organization to see that your absence is handled properly.   CEOs have surgery and take leaves of absence, everyone wants them to take all the time they need to recover, but plan your absence in a responsible way.   SL did not do that.

Contrary to popular opinion around here, I'm not a monster.  I feel for the man and what he went through physcially, and I understand the embarrassing sideeffects his surgery can have.   
Thats why I dont blame him for not coming back right away or for choosing not to coach game x, or game y.    Come back when you're ready, I'm completely supportive of that.
But if you're feeling well enough to try to coach in November (4 games in a row),  there is no way you can't coach in February or March.   I just don't buy that.
And his job is to come back when he's able.   Not before, but also certainly not to take more time than he needs either.
I also think his presence at games, but not coaching, is a distraction and frankly unheard of.   If you can be there, then coach.  If you can't coach, stay home and rest.   

I hope this clears things up, because I believe I have a legitimate criticism that is being framed as if I'm not appreciating what the man went through.  And that's not the case.

Lavin was in a box at msg. Big deal. He didn't go to away games and sorry but no way do I think it was a distraction.

Here is the most important piece of the timeline which you are missing

Sept 2011 Jakarr decommits

Nov 8th Rico Gathers decommits- program recruiting now in free fall and all momentum Lavin had built is completely lost.

Nov 9th Lavin seeing this pushes himself and comes back to the sidelines to coach the very next day

Does it for 4 games and was way too much for him

So now Lavin being shown in box at msg ( actually a very smart move since every coach in america is using his health against him recruiting ) so now Lavin does what he can and uses time off to his advantage to try and salvage recruiting

Jan 9th 2012- Lavin gets Jamal Branch to transfer to us

March 14th- Lavin after recruiting Sampson back as hard as he can gets him to recommit to us

June 2012 Lavin after spending so much time trying to land Obekpa gets him to commit to us

None of that would have happened if Lavin didn't go out and recruit while he was recovering

Desco give it a rest already.  I cringe and quickly scroll down when I see your name on a thread. The program is moving in a positive direction and even Marco has moved on.  Enjoy and look to the future. 

Quote from: desco80 on May 07, 2015, 02:49:32 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on May 06, 2015, 12:00:13 PM

Desco, please imagine how uncomfortable you'd be coaching a basketball game on national TV, without being able to control your bladder. And that's assuming that was the only issue. Have some empathy.

Again, I believe you guys misunderstand what I'm saying.  My critique is not that he needed time off, or that it was too long, or that he tried to coach and found out he couldn't.
All of that is a reasonable and somewhat foreseeable effect of having the cancer he did, and the procedure he did.     That's all understandable to me.

What I critize Steve Lavin for is how he left the program in his absence, and how he handled his absence.    You are either able to lead the program or you're not, and you take a leave of absence.   
It was a distraction and confusing to players and recruits when he was jetsetting around recruiting players but not coaching his own team in meaningful games.   

Look at this timeline and explain to me how he handled this properly:
Fall 2010:  Doctors detect cancer
April 2011: SL announces he has cancer and is undergoing treatment in the offseason.  says "This past fall I didn't want to distract our team, but with the season behind us, we are now working with medical experts and taking the proper steps to tackle this health challenge head on"     But yet, he didn't.  At the time, Jim Calhoun wishes him luck and says ""I underwent surgery; he may not," Calhoun said. "But after the surgery I was back coaching in 12 days.    Jim Boehim , who was diagnosed in 2001, says "We talked about a number of things. I think he's in real good position to handle this."
Boeheim said the treatment should not keep Lavin from his coaching responsibilities."Once he starts whatever he decides as a treatment he should be done with it within a short period of time," he said.
Our own Chris Monasch says: "We do not anticipate any disruption in his duties as our head coach, and thank all in advance for their support of Steve and respect for his family's privacy."

Oct 2011: SL has surgery.   
Nov 2011:  SL coaches 4 games.
Dec-Jan-Feb-March:  SL coaches 0 games, attends games in a luxury suite, flys around the country recruiting.  Lavin self describes himself as in "general manager mode", and may not return until next season.
April 2011: SL does studio analysis for CBSsports

How does that timeline make sense?    As head coach you have a responsibility the organization to see that your absence is handled properly.   CEOs have surgery and take leaves of absence, everyone wants them to take all the time they need to recover, but plan your absence in a responsible way.   SL did not do that.

Contrary to popular opinion around here, I'm not a monster.  I feel for the man and what he went through physcially, and I understand the embarrassing sideeffects his surgery can have.   
Thats why I dont blame him for not coming back right away or for choosing not to coach game x, or game y.    Come back when you're ready, I'm completely supportive of that.
But if you're feeling well enough to try to coach in November (4 games in a row),  there is no way you can't coach in February or March.   I just don't buy that.
And his job is to come back when he's able.   Not before, but also certainly not to take more time than he needs either.
I also think his presence at games, but not coaching, is a distraction and frankly unheard of.   If you can be there, then coach.  If you can't coach, stay home and rest.   

I hope this clears things up, because I believe I have a legitimate criticism that is being framed as if I'm not appreciating what the man went through.  And that's not the case.

Lavin was in a box at msg. Big deal. He didn't go to away games and sorry but no way do I think it was a distraction.

Here is the most important piece of the timeline which you are missing

Sept 2011 Jakarr decommits

Nov 8th Rico Gathers decommits- program recruiting now in free fall and all momentum Lavin had built is completely lost.

Nov 9th Lavin seeing this pushes himself and comes back to the sidelines to coach the very next day

Does it for 4 games and was way too much for him

So now Lavin being shown in box at msg ( actually a very smart move since every coach in america is using his health against him recruiting ) so now Lavin does what he can and uses time off to his advantage to try and salvage recruiting

Jan 9th 2012- Lavin gets Jamal Branch to transfer to us

March 14th- Lavin after recruiting Sampson back as hard as he can gets him to recommit to us

June 2012 Lavin after spending so much time trying to land Obekpa gets him to commit to us

None of that would have happened if Lavin didn't go out and recruit while he was recovering

sure sure sure, but everybody was so distracted, what don't you understand?  the distraction!!

Quote from: loughlinguy on May 07, 2015, 03:44:21 PM

Desco, not sure how young you are but life is not so simple. You criticize a guy for trying to come back too soon? He tried his best. That is wrong? . I am sure his doctors said it was ok to try. But it did not work. So you complain? Bladder problems are horrific. I hope you and your loved ones never have to go through it. But for those of us who have been around, what Lavin tried to do, and ultimately had to settle for, was perfectly understandable. You say having Lavin in the building  was a distraction? And that is based on what? Since you were not in the locker room, your opinion is worth zero. You can speculate but it is not based on anything tangible. And it is unnecessary and mean spirited. You criticize him because he was in the CBS studio in April? Think there is a difference between readily available bathrooms in a studio, as opposed to being on sidelines in front of thousands. Lavin had a serious prostate operation that took hours longer than anticipated because of complications. Diapers and leakage are facts of life after such an operation.  Lavin tries his best and you call him irresponsible for trying.  Criticize Lavin for poor coaching, but this attack is just way off base. The irony here, of course, is that your hate for Lavin is such that if he had not tried to come back early, you would have criticized him for that. Please, let's end this discussion.

I specifically don't criticize him for coming back too soon Loughlin.   I get that.  Makes a lot of sense.
But I disagree that it doesn't matter if he's in the building.  It may not be a distraction (I think it is) but it's certainly a terrible perception.   Its akin to a guy on disability or social security posting photographs from his latest vacation skiing or lounging on the beach.    If you can't coach, you shouldn't be announcing on tv that season.    You also shouldn't be schmoozing with felipe and other celebrities from a suite during our games, or flying to Cali to recruit when the team is flying to Marquette for a game.

That was a very trying season for the team, they were severely undermanned.   Lavin's job was to come back and join his team as soon as he could.
Which at first he tried to do, and he had some complications.  That's unfortunate.
But then he seemingly gave up on the season and started doing everything BUT coaching.    His responsibility was to come back when he could. 
If that was for 1 game, 2 games... whatever his health permitted.     But I don't believe he couldn't coach 4 months later.   Based on the typical recovery time (which I understand can vary significantly) but also based on all the other activities he was doing.     Again, he had a responsibility to come back when he could.   
He did the equivalent of milking an injury and staying on the DL longer than necessary.      Fans criticize players for that all the time.   

Have you battled cancer?  If not, how could you comment on his timeline?  The problem with your take on Lavin is that you assume that he's a lazy piece of trash and base everything off of that.  You are like 30 and (I'm assuming) have never been seriously ill.  I think it's extremely unfair to comment on how a guy 20+ years older and  stricken with a very serious illness should should respond.  There is a huge difference between mustering the strength to travel ten minutes to MSG by car service and working the 80 hours per and dealing with the daily bs of babysitting 15 kids that D-1 coaches have to be up to task for.  If you can't see that difference, you're a lost cause. 

You are also cherry-picking and distorting the facts in your timeline.  See MJMaher's for a more unbiased look at how things really went.  You really need to move on from this.  No reasonable poster could argue that Lavin wasn't a huge improvement over Roberts.  Hopefully Mullin and staff can take momentum and get us back to where we belong .   

In other news, Richmond, Ed P. and T. Mullin would be great additions to the staff.
Patience is a virtue.

His staff -   let him and the school down. They should of tried to out work other staffs to recruit.  Steve could of been the closer .  Hines ? Did he recruit when he was here ?

I hate to be the devil's (desco's) advocate, but I've been a clinician for the last 16 years.  I know the ins and outs of the stuff quite well.  The amount of time off in my opinion was a bit excessive for it to make any sense from a physical standpoint.  What i will add though, is that I believe that Lavin had a lot of associated residual psychological damage that lead to his protracted withdrawal from head coaching duties.  I don't think he ever really recovered from it mentally.  I think Lavin did a good job of trying to come back from the psychological stuff, but in the end it fell short of the efforts we need for all the resources that were put in.

I will add that my biggest pet peeve of the entire thing is that Lavin sold SJU on paying for extraneous coaches like Keady, who while an icon was really just here to hang out in hotels and be part of an entourage.  One that was not necessary, and im not entirely sure there weren't better choices than a guy like Rico Hines as well that didn't  help us a ton on the recruiting trail.

It left Chiles to be the workhorse of our entire staff recruiting-wise with Lavin as the closer of course and he was good at that, when he was interested.  I enjoyed the time Steve Lavin was here and I thought he did a decent job.  I don't think he ever recovered from his surgery mentally, and I also think he got a little to accustomed to being a bit pampered.   It was time to move on because he didn't leave much in the cupboard, and roster management was poor even though he could still land a few of the big dogs here and there.

I hate to be the devil's (desco's) advocate, but I've been a clinician for the last 16 years.  I know the ins and outs of the stuff quite well.  The amount of time off in my opinion was a bit excessive for it to make any sense from a physical standpoint.  What i will add though, is that I believe that Lavin had a lot of associated residual psychological damage that lead to his protracted withdrawal from head coaching duties.  I don't think he ever really recovered from it mentally.  I think Lavin did a good job of trying to come back from the psychological stuff, but in the end it fell short of the efforts we need for all the resources that were put in.

I will add that my biggest pet peeve of the entire thing is that Lavin sold SJU on paying for extraneous coaches like Keady, who while an icon was really just here to hang out in hotels and be part of an entourage.  One that was not necessary, and im not entirely sure there weren't better choices than a guy like Rico Hines as well that didn't  help us a ton on the recruiting trail.

It left Chiles to be the workhorse of our entire staff recruiting-wise with Lavin as the closer of course and he was good at that, when he was interested.  I enjoyed the time Steve Lavin was here and I thought he did a decent job.  I don't think he ever recovered from his surgery mentally, and I also think he got a little to accustomed to being a bit pampered.   It was time to move on because he didn't leave much in the cupboard, and roster management was poor even though he could still land a few of the big dogs here and there.

I think that is an entirely fair and reasonable opinion

I hate to be the devil's (desco's) advocate, but I've been a clinician for the last 16 years.  I know the ins and outs of the stuff quite well.  The amount of time off in my opinion was a bit excessive for it to make any sense from a physical standpoint.  What i will add though, is that I believe that Lavin had a lot of associated residual psychological damage that lead to his protracted withdrawal from head coaching duties.  I don't think he ever really recovered from it mentally.  I think Lavin did a good job of trying to come back from the psychological stuff, but in the end it fell short of the efforts we need for all the resources that were put in.

I will add that my biggest pet peeve of the entire thing is that Lavin sold SJU on paying for extraneous coaches like Keady, who while an icon was really just here to hang out in hotels and be part of an entourage.  One that was not necessary, and im not entirely sure there weren't better choices than a guy like Rico Hines as well that didn't  help us a ton on the recruiting trail.

It left Chiles to be the workhorse of our entire staff recruiting-wise with Lavin as the closer of course and he was good at that, when he was interested.  I enjoyed the time Steve Lavin was here and I thought he did a decent job.  I don't think he ever recovered from his surgery mentally, and I also think he got a little to accustomed to being a bit pampered.   It was time to move on because he didn't leave much in the cupboard, and roster management was poor even though he could still land a few of the big dogs here and there.

Fair take. I also agree that Lavin showed some residual psychological effects from the illness.  Coaching isn't a typical 40 hour per week job and it can't help being constantly destroyed by two different sets of fans.  I'm not blaming the fans...just acknowledging that Lavin is human. 

There is no question that Lavin left himself shorthanded with his assistant selections.  Rico Hines was dead weight.  Seriously, compare him to either Matt A or Slice....not even close.  Chiles was solid and  the workhorse, but still not in the league of the two assistant we have now.  To make things worse, Dunlap was useless on the recruiting trail when he was here and Whitesell wasn't hired in time to recruit for 2013-2014 and lacked the local recruiting connections to make a difference this past season. 

Lavin will be debated forever on here.  Harrison, Dom, and Phil all thought he was a good coach and good guy. That should count for a lot. They wouldn't say those things if he was as lazy and incompetent as he is made out by some on here.

To further add to MCN's thoughts which I think are certainly plausible. A really good friend of mine in my office who is a total stress ball with our job and worked pretty hard had a heart attack at 57 yrs old. It totally changed him. He still works but he has a much easier attitude and doesn't stress out like he did.

Compare that to someone else I knew who works for my company in our other office and he died of a heart attack in the office 2 weeks ago 52 years old. Health whether its physical or mental is a huge deal and I could totally see it changing someones attitude or workload