Kicked out of St. John's Law School

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/31/nyregion/student-gets-second-chance-at-law-school.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Should have been truthful on his application.  Look at George O'Leary and Steve Masiello with a resume to be a college football/basketball coach...this is someone who has to pass the character and fitness examination of the NYS bar eventually with very high standards on honesty and ethics.   St. John's did the right thing (though my reasoning is the lying, not the selling necessarily).

Depends on the exact wording on the application. If it was-have you ever been convicted of a crime and if so what crime than he was ok, if question was heave you ever been charged with a crime and if so what was it, than not ok.

Quote from: redmen4life on September 01, 2015, 10:36:28 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/31/nyregion/student-gets-second-chance-at-law-school.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Should have been truthful on his application.  Look at George O'Leary and Steve Masiello with a resume to be a college football/basketball coach...this is someone who has to pass the character and fitness examination of the NYS bar eventually with very high standards on honesty and ethics.   St. John's did the right thing (though my reasoning is the lying, not the selling necessarily).

NY's Character and Fitness is actually one of the most  lenient in the country.  It's a tough situation for the guy.  You 100% get denied if you disclose and you very likely will be forgiven by the school and approved by C&F if you come clean after proving yourself as a student and citizen.

Should someone suffer their entire life because of mistakes they made they made in their teens and early twenties?  I don't think that is right.

Quote from: Tha Kid on September 01, 2015, 11:18:14 AM

Quote from: redmen4life on September 01, 2015, 10:36:28 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/31/nyregion/student-gets-second-chance-at-law-school.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Should have been truthful on his application.  Look at George O'Leary and Steve Masiello with a resume to be a college football/basketball coach...this is someone who has to pass the character and fitness examination of the NYS bar eventually with very high standards on honesty and ethics.   St. John's did the right thing (though my reasoning is the lying, not the selling necessarily).

NY's Character and Fitness is actually one of the most  lenient in the country.  It's a tough situation for the guy.  You 100% get denied if you disclose and you very likely will be forgiven by the school and approved by C&F if you come clean after proving yourself as a student and citizen.

Should someone suffer their entire life because of mistakes they made they made in their teens and early twenties?  I don't think that is right.

I think in this case he was suffering for something he did in his late twenties -- lying on his law school application.  It's kind of sad, because what you said is true, the drug conviction probably wouldn't be a problem for c&f, but who knows what they will think about a guy who the court of appeals determined lied on his law school application.  His time at pace may all be wasted, unfortunately.

Quote from: Marillac on September 01, 2015, 05:10:38 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on September 01, 2015, 11:18:14 AM

Quote from: redmen4life on September 01, 2015, 10:36:28 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/31/nyregion/student-gets-second-chance-at-law-school.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Should have been truthful on his application.  Look at George O'Leary and Steve Masiello with a resume to be a college football/basketball coach...this is someone who has to pass the character and fitness examination of the NYS bar eventually with very high standards on honesty and ethics.   St. John's did the right thing (though my reasoning is the lying, not the selling necessarily).

NY's Character and Fitness is actually one of the most  lenient in the country.  It's a tough situation for the guy.  You 100% get denied if you disclose and you very likely will be forgiven by the school and approved by C&F if you come clean after proving yourself as a student and citizen.

Should someone suffer their entire life because of mistakes they made they made in their teens and early twenties?  I don't think that is right.

I think in this case he was suffering for something he did in his late twenties -- lying on his law school application.  It's kind of sad, because what you said is true, the drug conviction probably wouldn't be a problem for c&f, but who knows what they will think about a guy who the court of appeals determined lied on his law school application.  His time at pace may all be wasted, unfortunately.

Exactly.  It's the lying that will be the issue for C&F.  Not the charges.  IMHO.

Asking if anyone here has filled out a law school application. Earlier poster noted the difference between being charged with a crime, and being found guilty of a crime.

If he listed the same answer on both questions, then he lied.

Have you ever, either as an adult or juvenile, been cited, arrested, taken into custody, charged with, indicted, convicted or tried for, or pleaded guilty to, the commission of any felony or misdemeanor or the violation of any law, except minor parking violations, or been the subject of any juvenile delinquency or youthful offender proceeding?  If yes, please explain in a supplementary statement or electronic attachment the charge or charges and releveant facts,including the nature of the offense, the dates and courts involved, and the penalty imposed, if any.
Please note:  Although a conviction may have been expunged or sealed by an order of a court, it nevertheless should be disclosed


That's straight from the St Johns application.  The only question is whether he felt that the end conviction was the final say in the matter and figuring plausible deniability if he was found out.

Quote from: apesNapes on September 01, 2015, 05:31:22 PM

Quote from: Marillac on September 01, 2015, 05:10:38 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on September 01, 2015, 11:18:14 AM

Quote from: redmen4life on September 01, 2015, 10:36:28 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/31/nyregion/student-gets-second-chance-at-law-school.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Should have been truthful on his application.  Look at George O'Leary and Steve Masiello with a resume to be a college football/basketball coach...this is someone who has to pass the character and fitness examination of the NYS bar eventually with very high standards on honesty and ethics.   St. John's did the right thing (though my reasoning is the lying, not the selling necessarily).

NY's Character and Fitness is actually one of the most  lenient in the country.  It's a tough situation for the guy.  You 100% get denied if you disclose and you very likely will be forgiven by the school and approved by C&F if you come clean after proving yourself as a student and citizen.

Should someone suffer their entire life because of mistakes they made they made in their teens and early twenties?  I don't think that is right.

I think in this case he was suffering for something he did in his late twenties -- lying on his law school application.  It's kind of sad, because what you said is true, the drug conviction probably wouldn't be a problem for c&f, but who knows what they will think about a guy who the court of appeals determined lied on his law school application.  His time at pace may all be wasted, unfortunately.

Exactly.  It's the lying that will be the issue for C&F.  Not the charges.  IMHO.

You know as well as I do that half of the male students in law school run to the dean to amend their applications at some point.  And how many embellish their resumes or admissions essays?  Those are all lies as well.  The problem here is not the Character and Fitness Committee...they will approve him as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow. 

A person in his situation is faced with two options:  (1) lie and amend the application later and have a 95+% chance of ultimately graduating and being admitted or (2) tell the truth an have a 0% chance of being admitted in the first place.  SJU said it themselves that they have an unwritten rule of not admitting applicants with a history of selling drugs.  It doesn't leave much of a choice. 

Have you ever, either as an adult or juvenile, been cited, arrested, taken into custody, charged with, indicted, convicted or tried for, or pleaded guilty to, the commission of any felony or misdemeanor or the violation of any law, except minor parking violations, or been the subject of any juvenile delinquency or youthful offender proceeding?  If yes, please explain in a supplementary statement or electronic attachment the charge or charges and releveant facts,including the nature of the offense, the dates and courts involved, and the penalty imposed, if any.
Please note:  Although a conviction may have been expunged or sealed by an order of a court, it nevertheless should be disclosed


That's straight from the St Johns application.  The only question is whether he felt that the end conviction was the final say in the matter and figuring plausible deniability if he was found out.

Virtually everyone I know would answer yes to this question, including yours truly.  The applicant should be asked if they've been convicted of a felony or misdemeanor.

Quote from: Tha Kid on September 01, 2015, 05:57:43 PM

Quote from: apesNapes on September 01, 2015, 05:31:22 PM

Quote from: Marillac on September 01, 2015, 05:10:38 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on September 01, 2015, 11:18:14 AM

Quote from: redmen4life on September 01, 2015, 10:36:28 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/31/nyregion/student-gets-second-chance-at-law-school.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Should have been truthful on his application.  Look at George O'Leary and Steve Masiello with a resume to be a college football/basketball coach...this is someone who has to pass the character and fitness examination of the NYS bar eventually with very high standards on honesty and ethics.   St. John's did the right thing (though my reasoning is the lying, not the selling necessarily).

NY's Character and Fitness is actually one of the most  lenient in the country.  It's a tough situation for the guy.  You 100% get denied if you disclose and you very likely will be forgiven by the school and approved by C&F if you come clean after proving yourself as a student and citizen.

Should someone suffer their entire life because of mistakes they made they made in their teens and early twenties?  I don't think that is right.

I think in this case he was suffering for something he did in his late twenties -- lying on his law school application.  It's kind of sad, because what you said is true, the drug conviction probably wouldn't be a problem for c&f, but who knows what they will think about a guy who the court of appeals determined lied on his law school application.  His time at pace may all be wasted, unfortunately.

Exactly.  It's the lying that will be the issue for C&F.  Not the charges.  IMHO.

You know as well as I do that half of the male students in law school run to the dean to amend their applications at some point.  And how many embellish their resumes or admissions essays?  Those are all lies as well.  The problem here is not the Character and Fitness Committee...they will approve him as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow. 

A person in his situation is faced with two options:  (1) lie and amend the application later and have a 95+% chance of ultimately graduating and being admitted or (2) tell the truth an have a 0% chance of being admitted in the first place.  SJU said it themselves that they have an unwritten rule of not admitting applicants with a history of selling drugs.  It doesn't leave much of a choice. 

No, I do not know as well as you or anyone that half of the male students run to the dean to amend their application.  In fact, I know no one who has done that.  I am not saying it doesnt happen, I am sure it does if thats what you are telling me, but I dont think its as common as you think.  I know plenty of guys who reported minor offenses and were accepted and fine.

I also DO think C&F could be an issue for this guy by lying on his law school application.

Quote from: yankcranker on September 01, 2015, 06:10:32 PM

Have you ever, either as an adult or juvenile, been cited, arrested, taken into custody, charged with, indicted, convicted or tried for, or pleaded guilty to, the commission of any felony or misdemeanor or the violation of any law, except minor parking violations, or been the subject of any juvenile delinquency or youthful offender proceeding?  If yes, please explain in a supplementary statement or electronic attachment the charge or charges and releveant facts,including the nature of the offense, the dates and courts involved, and the penalty imposed, if any.
Please note:  Although a conviction may have been expunged or sealed by an order of a court, it nevertheless should be disclosed


That's straight from the St Johns application.  The only question is whether he felt that the end conviction was the final say in the matter and figuring plausible deniability if he was found out.

Virtually everyone I know would answer yes to this question, including yours truly.  The applicant should be asked if they've been convicted of a felony or misdemeanor.

YOu know what Newsie, looking at the application it's a yes or no question.  (One I would have the ability to honestly answer no to, though with a close call once)  From what I can tell he answered the question honestly with a yes but I guess in a follow up he only admitted to the Misdemeanor conviction.

PS I find the fact that there's a character issue with being a lawyer pretty funny.