Missing Pieces Longer term

Quote from: Foad on November 30, 2015, 09:20:42 PM

Quote from: Poison on November 30, 2015, 06:26:20 PM

Greene, by the time he became a senior, was one of the best role players in the nation, hitting threes at a terrific clip, making free throws, and even going strong to the basket and finishing.

Now you're just making things up. He shot .39 percent from three - hardly a terrific clip - and made 39 FTs all year - so he wasn't going to the basket, which is just as well because he was about an average FT shooter. At 72 percent he was the worst of the four seniors. He wasn't among the best anything in the nation and certainly not one of the best role players, which is an unquantifiable metric and in Greene's case an absurd characterization. He was good for three minutes in December, that's about it.

Where did Phil Greene rank among his BE peers in 3 point shooting percentage?

Tied for 7th with 39.5% for the season overall

Quote from: Foad on November 30, 2015, 09:20:42 PM

Quote from: Poison on November 30, 2015, 06:26:20 PM

Greene, by the time he became a senior, was one of the best role players in the nation, hitting threes at a terrific clip, making free throws, and even going strong to the basket and finishing.

Now you're just making things up. He shot .39 percent from three - hardly a terrific clip - and made 39 FTs all year - so he wasn't going to the basket, which is just as well because he was about an average FT shooter. At 72 percent he was the worst of the four seniors. He wasn't among the best anything in the nation and certainly not one of the best role players, which is an unquantifiable metric and in Greene's case an absurd characterization. He was good for three minutes in December, that's about it.

Where did Phil Greene rank among his BE peers in 3 point shooting percentage?

Last year?  Very highly.  I actually liked Greene.  But he was no point guard either.  He had very limited vision for a PG.  Mussini has better vision and is a significantly better passer.  In fairness to Phil, he played hurt for two to three seasons.  He had a wrist injury, and then he had a hip injury which limited his explosion to the basket.  Last year, he played injury free and it showed.

Dave said it best re Phil.

His lack of strength is fixable but that is really only major flaw in his defense that I see.

You're not looking closely enough.

Quote from: Dave on November 30, 2015, 02:13:17 AM

His lack of strength is fixable but that is really only major flaw in his defense that I see.

You're not looking closely enough.

He's not as bad as some guys are making him out to be.

Phil Greene had one skill and he wasn't very good at it.

3-POINT FG PCT    Cl    GP    3FG    3FGA    Pct
1.    GREENE IV, Phil-SJU    SR    18    44    96    .458
2.    BARLOW, Alex-BU    SR    18    36    79    .456
3.    KREKLOW, Rick-CU    SR    17    33    73    .452
4.    ABELL, Remy-XU    JR    18    23    51    .451
5.    ARCIDIACONO, Ryan-VU    JR    18    40    90    .444
6.    SMITH-RIVERA, D.-GU    JR    17    46    108    .426
7.    GIBBS, Sterling-SHU    JR    16    47    112    .420
8.    HART, Josh-VU    SO    18    28    67    .418
9.    HILLIARD, Darrun-VU    SR    18    48    116    .414
10.    CARLINO, Matt-MU    SR    14    48    120    .400
   DUNHAM, Kellen-BU    JR    18    40    100    .400
12.    JORDAN, Rysheed-SJU    SO    17    27    69    .391
13.    HARRISON, D'Angelo-SJU    SR    18    39    100    .390
14.    JENKINS, Kris-VU    SO    18    23    59    .390
15.    TRAWICK, Jabril-GU    SR    18    20    52    .385

 

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on December 01, 2015, 12:11:03 AM

Quote from: Dave on November 30, 2015, 02:13:17 AM

His lack of strength is fixable but that is really only major flaw in his defense that I see.

You're not looking closely enough.

He's not as bad as some guys are making him out to be.

I hope so.  I know I'm just knit picking.  The kid's been a revelation thus far.  How much more from a freshmen could one have hoped for?

Quote from: Foad on November 30, 2015, 09:20:42 PM

Quote from: Poison on November 30, 2015, 06:26:20 PM

Greene, by the time he became a senior, was one of the best role players in the nation, hitting threes at a terrific clip, making free throws, and even going strong to the basket and finishing.

Now you're just making things up. He shot .39 percent from three - hardly a terrific clip - and made 39 FTs all year - so he wasn't going to the basket, which is just as well because he was about an average FT shooter. At 72 percent he was the worst of the four seniors. He wasn't among the best anything in the nation and certainly not one of the best role players, which is an unquantifiable metric and in Greene's case an absurd characterization. He was good for three minutes in December, that's about it.

Where did Phil Greene rank among his BE peers in 3 point shooting percentage?

Greene shot 62 for 157 from three. He was 7th in the league.

My turn:

Take away 6 games where Greene shot 27-48 from three and over the remaining 26 games that comprised 80 percent of the season he was 35 for 109. That's 32 percent.

Please explain how 32 percent from 3 80 percent of the time is "terrific."

Quote from: Poison on November 30, 2015, 09:31:01 PM

Quote from: Foad on November 30, 2015, 09:20:42 PM

Quote from: Poison on November 30, 2015, 06:26:20 PM

Greene, by the time he became a senior, was one of the best role players in the nation, hitting threes at a terrific clip, making free throws, and even going strong to the basket and finishing.

Now you're just making things up. He shot .39 percent from three - hardly a terrific clip - and made 39 FTs all year - so he wasn't going to the basket, which is just as well because he was about an average FT shooter. At 72 percent he was the worst of the four seniors. He wasn't among the best anything in the nation and certainly not one of the best role players, which is an unquantifiable metric and in Greene's case an absurd characterization. He was good for three minutes in December, that's about it.

Where did Phil Greene rank among his BE peers in 3 point shooting percentage?

Greene shot 62 for 157 from three. He was 7th in the league.

My turn:

Take away 6 games where Greene shot 27-48 from three and over the remaining 26 games that comprised 80 percent of the season he was 35 for 109. That's 32 percent.

Please explain how 32 percent from 3 80 percent of the time is "terrific."

I guess it's not.

Quote from: Dave on December 01, 2015, 12:23:29 AM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on December 01, 2015, 12:11:03 AM

Quote from: Dave on November 30, 2015, 02:13:17 AM

His lack of strength is fixable but that is really only major flaw in his defense that I see.

You're not looking closely enough.

He's not as bad as some guys are making him out to be.

I hope so.  I know I'm just knit picking.  The kid's been a revelation thus far.  How much more from a freshmen could one have hoped for?

You nitpick him but hold Greene as a God?

Ufoad- you are right. But we stick up for him and like him because he was one of our players.  Why would someone spend so much time on a St. John's fan board and hate St. John's players.

I don't know. Why'd you spend all of last year ripping poor Felix Balamou, who barely even played. Are you a hypocrite or just completely lacking in self-awareness?

I have the luxury of not caring about the players at all beyond what I see on the court. Phil Greene might have been brought up in a garbage dump on the outskirts of Mexico City where he learned to shoot by tossing dead rats into empty soup cans for all I care. He was a shooting guard who was not particularly good at shooting and was mediocre at everything else to the extent that he even tried to do anything else. I'm not going to pretend I didn't see what I saw because of the logo on his uniform.

The anti Greene rhetoric continues. Unbelievable. Guy was a very good player for us, model citizen, always did the school and uniform proud, and improved every yearshe was here, even though limited by injuries. He improved so much he is earning a living playing ball professionally, starting for his team and posting good numbers there. So he is not Kobe Bryant. Newsflash--no one ever promised he would be Kobe. He was Phil Greene, and he did everything that was asked of him here. Good rule for these critics---if you find that 90 % of your posts are critical of our team and players, take your venom to some other site. Enough already.

...or at least to a different topic.....than one about missing pieces/longer term.

Quote from: Poison on November 30, 2015, 09:31:01 PM

Quote from: Foad on November 30, 2015, 09:20:42 PM

Quote from: Poison on November 30, 2015, 06:26:20 PM

Greene, by the time he became a senior, was one of the best role players in the nation, hitting threes at a terrific clip, making free throws, and even going strong to the basket and finishing.

Now you're just making things up. He shot .39 percent from three - hardly a terrific clip - and made 39 FTs all year - so he wasn't going to the basket, which is just as well because he was about an average FT shooter. At 72 percent he was the worst of the four seniors. He wasn't among the best anything in the nation and certainly not one of the best role players, which is an unquantifiable metric and in Greene's case an absurd characterization. He was good for three minutes in December, that's about it.

Where did Phil Greene rank among his BE peers in 3 point shooting percentage?

Greene shot 62 for 157 from three. He was 7th in the league.

My turn:

Take away 6 games where Greene shot 27-48 from three and over the remaining 26 games that comprised 80 percent of the season he was 35 for 109. That's 32 percent.

Please explain how 32 percent from 3 80 percent of the time is "terrific."

3-POINT FG PCT    Cl    GP    3FG    3FGA    Pct
1.    GREENE IV, Phil-SJU    SR    18    44    96    .458
2.    BARLOW, Alex-BU    SR    18    36    79    .456
3.    KREKLOW, Rick-CU    SR    17    33    73    .452
4.    ABELL, Remy-XU    JR    18    23    51    .451
5.    ARCIDIACONO, Ryan-VU    JR    18    40    90    .444
6.    SMITH-RIVERA, D.-GU    JR    17    46    108    .426
7.    GIBBS, Sterling-SHU    JR    16    47    112    .420
8.    HART, Josh-VU    SO    18    28    67    .418
9.    HILLIARD, Darrun-VU    SR    18    48    116    .414
10.    CARLINO, Matt-MU    SR    14    48    120    .400
   DUNHAM, Kellen-BU    JR    18    40    100    .400
12.    JORDAN, Rysheed-SJU    SO    17    27    69    .391
13.    HARRISON, D'Angelo-SJU    SR    18    39    100    .390
14.    JENKINS, Kris-VU    SO    18    23    59    .390
15.    TRAWICK, Jabril-GU    SR    18    20    52    .385

Quote from: Poison on November 30, 2015, 09:31:01 PM

Quote from: Foad on November 30, 2015, 09:20:42 PM

Quote from: Poison on November 30, 2015, 06:26:20 PM

Greene, by the time he became a senior, was one of the best role players in the nation, hitting threes at a terrific clip, making free throws, and even going strong to the basket and finishing.

Now you're just making things up. He shot .39 percent from three - hardly a terrific clip - and made 39 FTs all year - so he wasn't going to the basket, which is just as well because he was about an average FT shooter. At 72 percent he was the worst of the four seniors. He wasn't among the best anything in the nation and certainly not one of the best role players, which is an unquantifiable metric and in Greene's case an absurd characterization. He was good for three minutes in December, that's about it.

Where did Phil Greene rank among his BE peers in 3 point shooting percentage?

Greene shot 62 for 157 from three. He was 7th in the league.

My turn:

Take away 6 games where Greene shot 27-48 from three and over the remaining 26 games that comprised 80 percent of the season he was 35 for 109. That's 32 percent.

Please explain how 32 percent from 3 80 percent of the time is "terrific."

That is not a fair analysis, Foad.  If you arbitrarily take away his best 6 games, its at least reasonable to take away his worst 6 for a more balanced argument.  The only problem is that the remaining 20 games is debatably not a large enough sample size for statistical significance.

What would Doug McDermott's 3P% look like without his best 6 games two years ago?  I'd bet it isn't "terrific" either.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on December 01, 2015, 12:39:25 AM

Quote from: Dave on December 01, 2015, 12:23:29 AM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on December 01, 2015, 12:11:03 AM

Quote from: Dave on November 30, 2015, 02:13:17 AM

His lack of strength is fixable but that is really only major flaw in his defense that I see.

You're not looking closely enough.

He's not as bad as some guys are making him out to be.

I hope so.  I know I'm just knit picking.  The kid's been a revelation thus far.  How much more from a freshmen could one have hoped for?

You nitpick him but hold Greene as a God?

Short answer:  I don't know why the heart wants what it wants.

Long answer:
I don't hold him up as a God.  I held him up as my favorite Sju player of his era.

Octagon had a fine 4 year career that culminated with him spearheading the ever rare Ncaa tournament appearance for our favorite team. 

If our best big hadn't been a recent convert to Rastafarianism...who knows?

Fellini won't play his first BE game for another month.  So far I think he's just dandy.  Although I highly doubt he'll ever morph into my Mfp. Early polling suggests that he will struggle defensively.  Offensively he's been putting up elite numbers.

What would Doug McDermott's 3P% look like without his best 6 games two years ago?  I'd bet it isn't "terrific" either.

That's a bet you'd lose

In 2014 DM shot 96 for 214, .449.

Take away his 5 best games (27-44) and he's 69-170, .405.

Still pretty terrific.

Quote from: Foad on December 01, 2015, 08:17:41 AM

Quote from: Poison on November 30, 2015, 09:31:01 PM

Quote from: Foad on November 30, 2015, 09:20:42 PM

Quote from: Poison on November 30, 2015, 06:26:20 PM

Greene, by the time he became a senior, was one of the best role players in the nation, hitting threes at a terrific clip, making free throws, and even going strong to the basket and finishing.

Now you're just making things up. He shot .39 percent from three - hardly a terrific clip - and made 39 FTs all year - so he wasn't going to the basket, which is just as well because he was about an average FT shooter. At 72 percent he was the worst of the four seniors. He wasn't among the best anything in the nation and certainly not one of the best role players, which is an unquantifiable metric and in Greene's case an absurd characterization. He was good for three minutes in December, that's about it.

Where did Phil Greene rank among his BE peers in 3 point shooting percentage?

Greene shot 62 for 157 from three. He was 7th in the league.

My turn:

Take away 6 games where Greene shot 27-48 from three and over the remaining 26 games that comprised 80 percent of the season he was 35 for 109. That's 32 percent.

Please explain how 32 percent from 3 80 percent of the time is "terrific."

That is not a fair analysis, Foad.  If you arbitrarily take away his best 6 games, its at least reasonable to take away his worst 6 for a more balanced argument.  The only problem is that the remaining 20 games is debatably not a large enough sample size for statistical significance.

What would Doug McDermott's 3P% look like without his best 6 games two years ago?  I'd bet it isn't "terrific" either.

You have struck upon a valid important point.  Every statistical leader, record holder or just plain player ever anywhere in the history of the universe has quite naturally "benefitted?" from his best games being included in his totals and averages.

Here's a tool I use to separate statistical validity from statistical bullshite.  If the stats presented to you don't and won't appear anywhere in a respected publication or on a website of note to the sport....then most likely what you have is just poppycock.

The "take away all the good things Phil Greene did and he actually sucks" argument is weak.

Solid 4 year player, clutch, reliable shooter his senior season. Not much more could have been asked out of a three-star combo guard.

Greene had obvious limitations, but I recall several games from his sophomore season through his junior year that the team needed him to score, or they were going to lose the game. If he's going to be blamed for a poor shooting game, or several of them, he should also be given credit for being ready to play when clearly, no other guard was.