Providence Game Discussion

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 07:30:13 PM

Quote from: Moose on January 03, 2016, 07:27:09 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 03, 2016, 06:22:02 PM

We are 3 years from having the possibility of having a top recruiting class and losing in the first round MAYBE! I think some of you like losing.

And we would be in the same place with your buddy too.

Maybe, but Lavin was coming off back to back 20 win seasons. We don't get to blame Lavin for what he isn't here to work with. What we have now, is our own fault. Every ounce of it.

It took him 4 years to take a Top 5 class and get to the dance only to get smoked in the first round.  Our friend Tony defended Lavin to his last day but wants to take shots at Mullin in year 1 when he was left with Felix, Amar and Christian Jones.

We have been arguing about this for over a year. Last year you asked me why I liked Lavin, part of my reasoning was I was afraid of what might happen if he was fired. This season is worse then anything I could have imagined. You were right Lavin should have been fired 2 years ago. Bring Mullin in last year and we would all b happier this year. Or Lavin should have stayed and finished his contract. I absolutely believe we would be better this year if he was still here. I know u guys hate him but I believe he would have gotten players for this season. We had Brandon Sampson .
After a most likely poor season, we could have fired him and brought in Mullin.

Sima, mussini, yakwe, -4star players. Felix, Durand, jones, - 3 star players-  yes it's coaching staffs fault they were non competive vs a division 2 and not mid majors like was poster here- low level division 1 team. Durand Johnson not the most talented - incarnate wood's coach would be very happy if he spent his 5th year there.
Hopefully ponds and Lovett are special or we are in some trouble.

Quote from: Moose on January 03, 2016, 07:33:50 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 07:30:13 PM

Quote from: Moose on January 03, 2016, 07:27:09 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 03, 2016, 06:22:02 PM

We are 3 years from having the possibility of having a top recruiting class and losing in the first round MAYBE! I think some of you like losing.

And we would be in the same place with your buddy too.

Maybe, but Lavin was coming off back to back 20 win seasons. We don't get to blame Lavin for what he isn't here to work with. What we have now, is our own fault. Every ounce of it.

It took him 4 years to take a Top 5 class and get to the dance only to get smoked in the first round.  Our friend Tony defended Lavin to his last day but wants to take shots at Mullin in year 1 when he was left with Felix, Amar and Christian Jones.

We have been arguing about this for over a year. Last year you asked me why I liked Lavin, part of my reasoning was I was afraid of what might happen if he was fired. This season is worse then anything I could have imagined. You were right Lavin should have been fired 2 years ago. Bring Mullin in last year and we would all b happier this year. Or Lavin should have stayed and finished his contract. I absolutely believe we would be better this year if he was still here. I know u guys hate him but I believe he would have gotten players for this season. We had Brandon Sampson .
After a most likely poor season, we could have fired him and brought in Mullin.

Sima, mussini, yakwe, -4star players. Felix, Durand, jones, - 3 star players-  yes it's coaching staffs fault they were non competive vs a division 2 and not mid majors like was poster here- low level division 1 team. Durand Johnson not the most talented - incarnate wood's coach would be very happy if he spent his 5th year there.
Hopefully ponds and Lovett are special or we are in some trouble.

I don't think too many people are worried about this year. Most would trade a bad year for a good future. We have a descent core,albeit, young. We have Lovett, Owens,Ponds,Bashir and probably the German kid for next year. Too early to evaluate Mullins coaching but we have excellent recruiters.  Let's see where we are 2 years from now.

Quote from: prjohnnies on January 03, 2016, 01:45:38 PM

Because one can appreciate that Lavin helped restore the program, on the one hand, and, in the other, seemingly threw in the towel to start collecting pay checks a few years into his tenure, caring little about the state of the program.  That is he only logical explanation for the roster he left us with, which is far worse than what he inherited from Norm. 

I get your point but feel that it's unfair to fire a coach off of an Ncaa tournament appearance; in the midst of the recruiting period; than to complain that you don't like the roster you're left with. 

If Hollywood was still coaching and you didn't like the roster than the blame would obviously be with Lavin.  But you can't fault a coach for not recruiting after he's fired and there's no way to surmise what the roster would have looked like if he stayed.

It's just not that important either way.  Everyone's favorite athlete is the coach and we're all happy about it.  Let's learn to enjoy it in spite of the mounting defeats.

Going into his sixth season no coach no matter who he is should be in a position to have to basically recruit a whole new roster. GMAFB

I'm not too concerned with a blow out loss to a pretty good Providence. I am a bit concerned with the losses to Fordam, IWRD and NJIT. None of those games were that close and I would say our talent level is higher than those 3 teams.

I'm not too concerned with a blow out loss to a pretty good Providence. I am a bit concerned with the losses to Fordam, IWRD and NJIT. None of those games were that close and I would say our talent level is higher than those 3 teams.

I don't think we're more talented than any of those teams. Those teams have ball handlers, guys who can put it on the floor and get into the lane, and tough hard nosed guys that get after it. We don't get after it. That's your reason to be concerned. This is the laziest STJ team I've ever seen. Kevin Clarke had a team that worked harder, and was probably better, too.

Sorry, but I have to disagree.  I don't think it's accurate or fair to call this team "lazy. " I think that they are working hard, that they do care, and that they are trying to win.  Our guards are not fast or quick, and getting out on 3 point shooters has been a problem all year, especially when they try to help out in the post.  They are not quick enough to recover. It's a young, new team still learning to play together. Mussini plays hard but is physically bullied by bigger, stronger guards.  Ellison missed 8 games and is just now rounding into game shape; Johnson and M'Vouika returned from serious injuries and long layoffs (and they are not all that quick themselves.) Williams was highly sought after, but due to his injuries, hasn't been able to give the team anything this year.  They're playing without a true point guard in a league that has mostly excellent guard play.  I don't think that it's lack of heart or desire that's the reason for the results; we simply don't have the talent to win in the Big East yet. We're asking freshmen to be major contributors night in and night out, when all but 5 star freshmen can only be counted on to be inconsistent from game to game.  We returned about 4% of our scoring from last year's team.  That's 4%!  We  started with three returnees from the end of Lavin's bench, threw in 9 new guys recruited after most of the high prospects had already been locked up by other teams (and 3 of the 9, including the point guard, aren't playing this year) , and we're not winning games that you think we should be winning so you call the team lazy? That's just wrong.

Sorry, but I have to disagree.  I don't think it's accurate or fair to call this team "lazy. " I think that they are working hard, that they do care, and that they are trying to win.  Our guards are not fast or quick, and getting out on 3 point shooters has been a problem all year, especially when they try to help out in the post.  They are not quick enough to recover. It's a young, new team still learning to play together. Mussini plays hard but is physically bullied by bigger, stronger guards.  Ellison missed 8 games and is just now rounding into game shape; Johnson and M'Vouika returned from serious injuries and long layoffs (and they are not all that quick themselves.) Williams was highly sought after, but due to his injuries, hasn't been able to give the team anything this year.  They're playing without a true point guard in a league that has mostly excellent guard play.  I don't think that it's lack of heart or desire that's the reason for the results; we simply don't have the talent to win in the Big East yet. We're asking freshmen to be major contributors night in and night out, when all but 5 star freshmen can only be counted on to be inconsistent from game to game.  We returned about 4% of our scoring from last year's team.  That's 4%!  We  started with three returnees from the end of Lavin's bench, threw in 9 new guys recruited after most of the high prospects had already been locked up by other teams (and 3 of the 9, including the point guard, aren't playing this year) , and we're not winning games that you think we should be winning so you call the team lazy? That's just wrong.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing us get after it and IMO that has nothing to do with talent. This team can shoot. Not like Duke, but they can shoot much better than some of the awful and inexperienced teams we've had in the past. But loose balls? Forget it? Boxing out? Rarely. Following your own shot? Who does this? Christian Jones has been here for 4 years. Ever seen him do it? Does he not want to, or does he not know to?

Quote from: Lycidas on January 05, 2016, 11:45:39 AM

Sorry, but I have to disagree.  I don't think it's accurate or fair to call this team "lazy. " I think that they are working hard, that they do care, and that they are trying to win.  Our guards are not fast or quick, and getting out on 3 point shooters has been a problem all year, especially when they try to help out in the post.  They are not quick enough to recover. It's a young, new team still learning to play together. Mussini plays hard but is physically bullied by bigger, stronger guards.  Ellison missed 8 games and is just now rounding into game shape; Johnson and M'Vouika returned from serious injuries and long layoffs (and they are not all that quick themselves.) Williams was highly sought after, but due to his injuries, hasn't been able to give the team anything this year.  They're playing without a true point guard in a league that has mostly excellent guard play.  I don't think that it's lack of heart or desire that's the reason for the results; we simply don't have the talent to win in the Big East yet. We're asking freshmen to be major contributors night in and night out, when all but 5 star freshmen can only be counted on to be inconsistent from game to game.  We returned about 4% of our scoring from last year's team.  That's 4%!  We  started with three returnees from the end of Lavin's bench, threw in 9 new guys recruited after most of the high prospects had already been locked up by other teams (and 3 of the 9, including the point guard, aren't playing this year) , and we're not winning games that you think we should be winning so you call the team lazy? That's just wrong.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing us get after it and IMO that has nothing to do with talent. This team can shoot. Not like Duke, but they can shoot much better than some of the awful and inexperienced teams we've had in the past. But loose balls? Forget it? Boxing out? Rarely. Following your own shot? Who does this? Christian Jones has been here for 4 years. Ever seen him do it? Does he not want to, or does he not know to?

Christian Jones has been much more active on the glass this year and has showed tenacity in the paint for the first time in his tenure here.  Last few games, the team has been after loose balls much more aggressively than early in the season.  I agree on boxing out, but that's coaching more than effort.

It feels like you are just picking something to complain about because it is unreasonable to dwell on inexperience and the talent gap given the situation.  If they outhustled every team they played this year, their record is probably the same.  Biggest factors are turnovers and poor shooting.

Quote from: Poison on January 05, 2016, 12:41:42 PM

Quote from: Lycidas on January 05, 2016, 11:45:39 AM

Sorry, but I have to disagree.  I don't think it's accurate or fair to call this team "lazy. " I think that they are working hard, that they do care, and that they are trying to win.  Our guards are not fast or quick, and getting out on 3 point shooters has been a problem all year, especially when they try to help out in the post.  They are not quick enough to recover. It's a young, new team still learning to play together. Mussini plays hard but is physically bullied by bigger, stronger guards.  Ellison missed 8 games and is just now rounding into game shape; Johnson and M'Vouika returned from serious injuries and long layoffs (and they are not all that quick themselves.) Williams was highly sought after, but due to his injuries, hasn't been able to give the team anything this year.  They're playing without a true point guard in a league that has mostly excellent guard play.  I don't think that it's lack of heart or desire that's the reason for the results; we simply don't have the talent to win in the Big East yet. We're asking freshmen to be major contributors night in and night out, when all but 5 star freshmen can only be counted on to be inconsistent from game to game.  We returned about 4% of our scoring from last year's team.  That's 4%!  We  started with three returnees from the end of Lavin's bench, threw in 9 new guys recruited after most of the high prospects had already been locked up by other teams (and 3 of the 9, including the point guard, aren't playing this year) , and we're not winning games that you think we should be winning so you call the team lazy? That's just wrong.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing us get after it and IMO that has nothing to do with talent. This team can shoot. Not like Duke, but they can shoot much better than some of the awful and inexperienced teams we've had in the past. But loose balls? Forget it? Boxing out? Rarely. Following your own shot? Who does this? Christian Jones has been here for 4 years. Ever seen him do it? Does he not want to, or does he not know to?

Christian Jones has been much more active on the glass this year and has showed tenacity in the paint for the first time in his tenure here.  Last few games, the team has been after loose balls much more aggressively than early in the season.  I agree on boxing out, but that's coaching more than effort.

It feels like you are just picking something to complain about because it is unreasonable to dwell on inexperience and the talent gap given the situation.  If they outhustled every team they played this year, their record is probably the same.  Biggest factors are turnovers and poor shooting.

Fair points. My criticisms are more with the coaching staffs approach than with any individual player. Although, I admit, I really hate watching Durand Johnson's make believe defense, and Ron Mvouika's jogging. A lot of people on this board have been thrilled with the job the staff has done to field this team in such a short period of time. But if they win 7 or 8 games this year, what work have they really done?

Sima and Yakwe look like they can be BE players with the right offseason preparation this summer. Mussini? Maybe. Ellison? Maybe. What does that leave us with for next season? I can appreciate that this season was going to be a rebuilding year. I can appreciate that the staff took a chance on Lovett. I can even appreciate that bad luck like the injury to Williams and the injuries to Balamou that we will no doubt see again before the season is over have all contributed to this terrible start to the season.

But none of that gives the staff a free pass from progress this year. They need to make adjustments, and hold each player accountable for not playing hard enough. Why did it take 15 games for Johnson to lose his starting position?  I would rather get blown out with a walk on running the point, than show Mussini that raising his hand in the general direction of the shooter after he's already taken the shot is what we do at St.John's.

Quote from: Gray Chudney on January 05, 2016, 12:57:20 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 05, 2016, 12:41:42 PM

Quote from: Lycidas on January 05, 2016, 11:45:39 AM

Sorry, but I have to disagree.  I don't think it's accurate or fair to call this team "lazy. " I think that they are working hard, that they do care, and that they are trying to win.  Our guards are not fast or quick, and getting out on 3 point shooters has been a problem all year, especially when they try to help out in the post.  They are not quick enough to recover. It's a young, new team still learning to play together. Mussini plays hard but is physically bullied by bigger, stronger guards.  Ellison missed 8 games and is just now rounding into game shape; Johnson and M'Vouika returned from serious injuries and long layoffs (and they are not all that quick themselves.) Williams was highly sought after, but due to his injuries, hasn't been able to give the team anything this year.  They're playing without a true point guard in a league that has mostly excellent guard play.  I don't think that it's lack of heart or desire that's the reason for the results; we simply don't have the talent to win in the Big East yet. We're asking freshmen to be major contributors night in and night out, when all but 5 star freshmen can only be counted on to be inconsistent from game to game.  We returned about 4% of our scoring from last year's team.  That's 4%!  We  started with three returnees from the end of Lavin's bench, threw in 9 new guys recruited after most of the high prospects had already been locked up by other teams (and 3 of the 9, including the point guard, aren't playing this year) , and we're not winning games that you think we should be winning so you call the team lazy? That's just wrong.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing us get after it and IMO that has nothing to do with talent. This team can shoot. Not like Duke, but they can shoot much better than some of the awful and inexperienced teams we've had in the past. But loose balls? Forget it? Boxing out? Rarely. Following your own shot? Who does this? Christian Jones has been here for 4 years. Ever seen him do it? Does he not want to, or does he not know to?

Christian Jones has been much more active on the glass this year and has showed tenacity in the paint for the first time in his tenure here.  Last few games, the team has been after loose balls much more aggressively than early in the season.  I agree on boxing out, but that's coaching more than effort.

It feels like you are just picking something to complain about because it is unreasonable to dwell on inexperience and the talent gap given the situation.  If they outhustled every team they played this year, their record is probably the same.  Biggest factors are turnovers and poor shooting.

Fair points. My criticisms are more with the coaching staffs approach than with any individual player. Although, I admit, I really hate watching Durand Johnson's make believe defense, and Ron Mvouika's jogging. A lot of people on this board have been thrilled with the job the staff has done to field this team in such a short period of time. But if they win 7 or 8 games this year, what work have they really done?

Sima and Yakwe look like they can be BE players with the right offseason preparation this summer. Mussini? Maybe. Ellison? Maybe. What does that leave us with for next season? I can appreciate that this season was going to be a rebuilding year. I can appreciate that the staff took a chance on Lovett. I can even appreciate that bad luck like the injury to Williams and the injuries to Balamou that we will no doubt see again before the season is over have all contributed to this terrible start to the season.

But none of that gives the staff a free pass from progress this year. They need to make adjustments, and hold each player accountable for not playing hard enough. Why did it take 15 games for Johnson to lose his starting position?  I would rather get blown out with a walk on running the point, than show Mussini that raising his hand in the general direction of the shooter after he's already taken the shot is what we do at St.John's.

I'm confused by you. What was your realistic expectation for this season when it was clear neither Jordan or Obekpa were coming back? Sima, Yakwe, Mussini and Ellison are BE players but they are freshmen. These are 4 year players that will grow each year and are being asked to do way too much right now, which is why the team is as bad as it is. You can't have a freshman like Mussini play 35 minutes per game at PG when he's not really a true PG and then say he's not a big east player when he inevitably struggles.

You can't watch a player struggle through half of their freshman season and then declare that they might not be BE players. Not everybody is Ben Simmons. By the way, Diallo is getting no burn at Kansas and Sampson is getting no burn at LSU. I guess those guys aren't big conference players either.

Quote from: Poison on January 06, 2016, 01:50:56 AM

Quote from: Gray Chudney on January 05, 2016, 12:57:20 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 05, 2016, 12:41:42 PM

Quote from: Lycidas on January 05, 2016, 11:45:39 AM

Sorry, but I have to disagree.  I don't think it's accurate or fair to call this team "lazy. " I think that they are working hard, that they do care, and that they are trying to win.  Our guards are not fast or quick, and getting out on 3 point shooters has been a problem all year, especially when they try to help out in the post.  They are not quick enough to recover. It's a young, new team still learning to play together. Mussini plays hard but is physically bullied by bigger, stronger guards.  Ellison missed 8 games and is just now rounding into game shape; Johnson and M'Vouika returned from serious injuries and long layoffs (and they are not all that quick themselves.) Williams was highly sought after, but due to his injuries, hasn't been able to give the team anything this year.  They're playing without a true point guard in a league that has mostly excellent guard play.  I don't think that it's lack of heart or desire that's the reason for the results; we simply don't have the talent to win in the Big East yet. We're asking freshmen to be major contributors night in and night out, when all but 5 star freshmen can only be counted on to be inconsistent from game to game.  We returned about 4% of our scoring from last year's team.  That's 4%!  We  started with three returnees from the end of Lavin's bench, threw in 9 new guys recruited after most of the high prospects had already been locked up by other teams (and 3 of the 9, including the point guard, aren't playing this year) , and we're not winning games that you think we should be winning so you call the team lazy? That's just wrong.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing us get after it and IMO that has nothing to do with talent. This team can shoot. Not like Duke, but they can shoot much better than some of the awful and inexperienced teams we've had in the past. But loose balls? Forget it? Boxing out? Rarely. Following your own shot? Who does this? Christian Jones has been here for 4 years. Ever seen him do it? Does he not want to, or does he not know to?

Christian Jones has been much more active on the glass this year and has showed tenacity in the paint for the first time in his tenure here.  Last few games, the team has been after loose balls much more aggressively than early in the season.  I agree on boxing out, but that's coaching more than effort.

It feels like you are just picking something to complain about because it is unreasonable to dwell on inexperience and the talent gap given the situation.  If they outhustled every team they played this year, their record is probably the same.  Biggest factors are turnovers and poor shooting.

Fair points. My criticisms are more with the coaching staffs approach than with any individual player. Although, I admit, I really hate watching Durand Johnson's make believe defense, and Ron Mvouika's jogging. A lot of people on this board have been thrilled with the job the staff has done to field this team in such a short period of time. But if they win 7 or 8 games this year, what work have they really done?

Sima and Yakwe look like they can be BE players with the right offseason preparation this summer. Mussini? Maybe. Ellison? Maybe. What does that leave us with for next season? I can appreciate that this season was going to be a rebuilding year. I can appreciate that the staff took a chance on Lovett. I can even appreciate that bad luck like the injury to Williams and the injuries to Balamou that we will no doubt see again before the season is over have all contributed to this terrible start to the season.

But none of that gives the staff a free pass from progress this year. They need to make adjustments, and hold each player accountable for not playing hard enough. Why did it take 15 games for Johnson to lose his starting position?  I would rather get blown out with a walk on running the point, than show Mussini that raising his hand in the general direction of the shooter after he's already taken the shot is what we do at St.John's.

I'm confused by you. What was your realistic expectation for this season when it was clear neither Jordan or Obekpa were coming back? Sima, Yakwe, Mussini and Ellison are BE players but they are freshmen. These are 4 year players that will grow each year and are being asked to do way too much right now, which is why the team is as bad as it is. You can't have a freshman like Mussini play 35 minutes per game at PG when he's not really a true PG and then say he's not a big east player when he inevitably struggles.

You can't watch a player struggle through half of their freshman season and then declare that they might not be BE players. Not everybody is Ben Simmons. By the way, Diallo is getting no burn at Kansas and Sampson is getting no burn at LSU. I guess those guys aren't big conference players either.

Anyone claiming that Mussini and Ellison aren't big east players after two conferences games is jumping to conclusions. If this roster had been build correctly these guys wouldn't even be playing much. Instead they are playing huge minutes and getting exposed bc they are freshman. There are always a group of elite freshman who are huge contributors from day one but the other 90% play sparingly and are all able to develop over time. Mussini will be a very useful player when he doesn't have to handle the ball so much and Ellison has played like 7 games this year with a couple nice performances. He has a chance to be a solid contributor, give them time. With Sima, Yakwe, Owens, Ponds, Mussini, Ahmed and Ellison we have young players to build around. Maybe all of them don't pan out but I would bet that most become very solid players.