Providence Game Discussion

I agree that Cooley has done a good job there, even though (ironically) he lost a bunch of recruits to us early on.  They have done a great job at filling holes with solid, under-the-radar players, when they miss out on the bigger fish.

With that said, the love being given to Cooley on this site and the others provides some important context for our current staff/season. 

Cooley went 4-14 in the Big East his first year.  Granted, the old Big East, but still they had a very down year.  He was 1-9 on conference play to start, and went 3-5 in the latter part of the schedule (only Depaul had a worse record).  Cooley had that record even though he inherited Vincent Council, an experienced upperclassmen and very solid Big East guard, who earned third-team All Big East that year.  He ALSO inherited Bryce Cotton, who was a sophomore, and had a breakout year that season.  So while he took over in March, like our coach, and had to fill out a roster (only 9 scholarship players), he had some very good pieces already in place.  Cooley also snagged Henton, who had committed to Dayton but changed his mind after Brian Gregory left.  Obviously a great job by Cooley and staff getting Henton on board at that stage.

Cooley's second year, 2012-2013, he won 19 games and went to the NIT, where they won a few games.  The following year they beat us in the first round of the BE tourney, which was effectively a play-in game that those of us (like me) who attended will never forget, as Sampson missed a few chippies down the stretch after we made a crazy comeback and had a chance to win.

I'm noting the above to provide some context to our year and what this staff is facing, because I think we forget sometimes about the struggles other programs have had, and how it can take some time to get things going.

Mullin & Co. did not have the benefit of inheriting ANY player in the same ballpark as Council or Cotton.  You put either of them on this year's team, and we are a much different (and better) squad, as either are better than the best guy we run out on a given night.  And don't give me Jordan, because we know he wouldn't be eligible, nor Obekpa, because he was likely a goner as well.

I don't like giving passes, but the negative energy this year should be focused on the fake-tan Fox sports analyst for leaving us with a disastrous roster.  As others have said, this year is about the young guys maturing, the staff maturing, and W's on the recruiting front.

Quote from: MCNPA on January 02, 2016, 04:38:32 PM

It's a very good providence team that can actually compete in ncaa's.  They have a lot of pieces and experience.

Cooley has done a terrific job there. I think we'd all be happy experiencing the success they have experienced since he got there and what they will experience this year. They have a real chance at being a top 4 seed and going to the sweet 16

Quote from: MCNPA on January 02, 2016, 04:38:32 PM

It's a very good providence team that can actually compete in ncaa's.  They have a lot of pieces and experience.

Cooley has done a terrific job there. I think we'd all be happy experiencing the success they have experienced since he got there and what they will experience this year. They have a real chance at being a top 4 seed and going to the sweet 16

I agree that Cooley has done a good job there, even though (ironically) he lost a bunch of recruits to us early on.  They have done a great job at filling holes with solid, under-the-radar players, when they miss out on the bigger fish.

With that said, the love being given to Cooley on this site and the others provides some important context for our current staff/season. 

Cooley went 4-14 in the Big East his first year.  Granted, the old Big East, but still they had a very down year.  He was 1-9 on conference play to start, and went 3-5 in the latter part of the schedule (only Depaul had a worse record).  Cooley had that record even though he inherited Vincent Council, an experienced upperclassmen and very solid Big East guard, who earned third-team All Big East that year.  He ALSO inherited Bryce Cotton, who was a sophomore, and had a breakout year that season.  So while he took over in March, like our coach, and had to fill out a roster (only 9 scholarship players), he had some very good pieces already in place.  Cooley also snagged Henton, who had committed to Dayton but changed his mind after Brian Gregory left.  Obviously a great job by Cooley and staff getting Henton on board at that stage.

Cooley's second year, 2012-2013, he won 19 games and went to the NIT, where they won a few games.  The following year they beat us in the first round of the BE tourney, which was effectively a play-in game that those of us (like me) who attended will never forget, as Sampson missed a few chippies down the stretch after we made a crazy comeback and had a chance to win.

I'm noting the above to provide some context to our year and what this staff is facing, because I think we forget sometimes about the struggles other programs have had, and how it can take some time to get things going.

Mullin & Co. did not have the benefit of inheriting ANY player in the same ballpark as Council or Cotton.  You put either of them on this year's team, and we are a much different (and better) squad, as either are better than the best guy we run out on a given night.  And don't give me Jordan, because we know he wouldn't be eligible, nor Obekpa, because he was likely a goner as well.

I don't like giving passes, but the negative energy this year should be focused on the fake-tan Fox sports analyst for leaving us with a disastrous roster.  As others have said, this year is about the young guys maturing, the staff maturing, and W's on the recruiting front.

Quote from: goredmen on January 02, 2016, 04:46:15 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on January 02, 2016, 04:38:32 PM

It's a very good providence team that can actually compete in ncaa's.  They have a lot of pieces and experience.

Cooley has done a terrific job there. I think we'd all be happy experiencing the success they have experienced since he got there and what they will experience this year. They have a real chance at being a top 4 seed and going to the sweet 16

Quote from: goredmen on January 02, 2016, 04:46:15 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on January 02, 2016, 04:38:32 PM

It's a very good providence team that can actually compete in ncaa's.  They have a lot of pieces and experience.

Cooley has done a terrific job there. I think we'd all be happy experiencing the success they have experienced since he got there and what they will experience this year. They have a real chance at being a top 4 seed and going to the sweet 16

Very good points. Also look at Marquette and how terrible they were last year and they are improving in their second year. This will take time. We essentially with Ponds, Lovett and Ahmed are adding three four star players to the mix. Cupboard was left completely bare, we can start judging the job by the staff next year. This season is going to be bad and every reasonable fan knew this.

Quote from: prjohnnies on January 03, 2016, 12:21:09 AM

I agree that Cooley has done a good job there, even though (ironically) he lost a bunch of recruits to us early on.  They have done a great job at filling holes with solid, under-the-radar players, when they miss out on the bigger fish.

With that said, the love being given to Cooley on this site and the others provides some important context for our current staff/season. 

Cooley went 4-14 in the Big East his first year.  Granted, the old Big East, but still they had a very down year.  He was 1-9 on conference play to start, and went 3-5 in the latter part of the schedule (only Depaul had a worse record).  Cooley had that record even though he inherited Vincent Council, an experienced upperclassmen and very solid Big East guard, who earned third-team All Big East that year.  He ALSO inherited Bryce Cotton, who was a sophomore, and had a breakout year that season.  So while he took over in March, like our coach, and had to fill out a roster (only 9 scholarship players), he had some very good pieces already in place.  Cooley also snagged Henton, who had committed to Dayton but changed his mind after Brian Gregory left.  Obviously a great job by Cooley and staff getting Henton on board at that stage.

Cooley's second year, 2012-2013, he won 19 games and went to the NIT, where they won a few games.  The following year they beat us in the first round of the BE tourney, which was effectively a play-in game that those of us (like me) who attended will never forget, as Sampson missed a few chippies down the stretch after we made a crazy comeback and had a chance to win.

I'm noting the above to provide some context to our year and what this staff is facing, because I think we forget sometimes about the struggles other programs have had, and how it can take some time to get things going.

Mullin & Co. did not have the benefit of inheriting ANY player in the same ballpark as Council or Cotton.  You put either of them on this year's team, and we are a much different (and better) squad, as either are better than the best guy we run out on a given night.  And don't give me Jordan, because we know he wouldn't be eligible, nor Obekpa, because he was likely a goner as well.

I don't like giving passes, but the negative energy this year should be focused on the fake-tan Fox sports analyst for leaving us with a disastrous roster.  As others have said, this year is about the young guys maturing, the staff maturing, and W's on the recruiting front.

Quote from: goredmen on January 02, 2016, 04:46:15 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on January 02, 2016, 04:38:32 PM

It's a very good providence team that can actually compete in ncaa's.  They have a lot of pieces and experience.

Cooley has done a terrific job there. I think we'd all be happy experiencing the success they have experienced since he got there and what they will experience this year. They have a real chance at being a top 4 seed and going to the sweet 16

Quote from: goredmen on January 02, 2016, 04:46:15 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on January 02, 2016, 04:38:32 PM

It's a very good providence team that can actually compete in ncaa's.  They have a lot of pieces and experience.

Cooley has done a terrific job there. I think we'd all be happy experiencing the success they have experienced since he got there and what they will experience this year. They have a real chance at being a top 4 seed and going to the sweet 16

Very good points. Also look at Marquette and how terrible they were last year and they are improving in their second year. This will take time. We essentially with Ponds, Lovett and Ahmed are adding three four star players to the mix. Cupboard was left completely bare, we can start judging the job by the staff next year. This season is going to be bad and every reasonable fan knew this.

IMO, I sense Marquette will stink it up again this season.  I don't want to improve at the rate of Marquette a season from now, based on where I think they'll end up. 

Providence thoughts, such as they are: http://www.bigeastboards.com/

Quote from: Wods317 on January 03, 2016, 12:45:04 AM

Quote from: prjohnnies on January 03, 2016, 12:21:09 AM

I agree that Cooley has done a good job there, even though (ironically) he lost a bunch of recruits to us early on.  They have done a great job at filling holes with solid, under-the-radar players, when they miss out on the bigger fish.

With that said, the love being given to Cooley on this site and the others provides some important context for our current staff/season. 

Cooley went 4-14 in the Big East his first year.  Granted, the old Big East, but still they had a very down year.  He was 1-9 on conference play to start, and went 3-5 in the latter part of the schedule (only Depaul had a worse record).  Cooley had that record even though he inherited Vincent Council, an experienced upperclassmen and very solid Big East guard, who earned third-team All Big East that year.  He ALSO inherited Bryce Cotton, who was a sophomore, and had a breakout year that season.  So while he took over in March, like our coach, and had to fill out a roster (only 9 scholarship players), he had some very good pieces already in place.  Cooley also snagged Henton, who had committed to Dayton but changed his mind after Brian Gregory left.  Obviously a great job by Cooley and staff getting Henton on board at that stage.

Cooley's second year, 2012-2013, he won 19 games and went to the NIT, where they won a few games.  The following year they beat us in the first round of the BE tourney, which was effectively a play-in game that those of us (like me) who attended will never forget, as Sampson missed a few chippies down the stretch after we made a crazy comeback and had a chance to win.

I'm noting the above to provide some context to our year and what this staff is facing, because I think we forget sometimes about the struggles other programs have had, and how it can take some time to get things going.

Mullin & Co. did not have the benefit of inheriting ANY player in the same ballpark as Council or Cotton.  You put either of them on this year's team, and we are a much different (and better) squad, as either are better than the best guy we run out on a given night.  And don't give me Jordan, because we know he wouldn't be eligible, nor Obekpa, because he was likely a goner as well.

I don't like giving passes, but the negative energy this year should be focused on the fake-tan Fox sports analyst for leaving us with a disastrous roster.  As others have said, this year is about the young guys maturing, the staff maturing, and W's on the recruiting front.

Quote from: goredmen on January 02, 2016, 04:46:15 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on January 02, 2016, 04:38:32 PM

It's a very good providence team that can actually compete in ncaa's.  They have a lot of pieces and experience.

Cooley has done a terrific job there. I think we'd all be happy experiencing the success they have experienced since he got there and what they will experience this year. They have a real chance at being a top 4 seed and going to the sweet 16

Quote from: goredmen on January 02, 2016, 04:46:15 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on January 02, 2016, 04:38:32 PM

It's a very good providence team that can actually compete in ncaa's.  They have a lot of pieces and experience.

Cooley has done a terrific job there. I think we'd all be happy experiencing the success they have experienced since he got there and what they will experience this year. They have a real chance at being a top 4 seed and going to the sweet 16

Very good points. Also look at Marquette and how terrible they were last year and they are improving in their second year. This will take time. We essentially with Ponds, Lovett and Ahmed are adding three four star players to the mix. Cupboard was left completely bare, we can start judging the job by the staff next year. This season is going to be bad and every reasonable fan knew this.

IMO, I sense Marquette will stink it up again this season.  I don't want to improve at the rate of Marquette a season from now, based on where I think they'll end up. 

Never said that we wanted to follow their plan but they are much improved from the team they had last year. There are literally 100's of examples of teams being terrible in their coaches first year and then being much much better very soon. Mullin had zero to work with this season, he has to get a pass. They still need to compete and improve but if you are going to overreact over every little thing you are in for a rude awakening becaus this team is not good and the best players are freshman who are usually inconsistent.

He's a shittier version of Avery Patterson. Where has Johnson improved? He hurts more than he helps.

Johnson is 2nd on the team in scoring, 3rd in rebounding, 3rd in assists, leads the team in steals and averages fewer TOs per game than Mussini, Balamou, Jones, Mvouika, and Ellison. If your argument is that some guy who averaged 6 points a game in his career isn't leading 17 freshmen to victory in the BE because he's not man enough, that's kind of silly. He's far from a complete ball player but he's also far from the problem.

Agree with you about Patterson though, he was the worst. Thank goodness the great D'Angelo Harrison is now the all time leader in 3 pointers made in a season, it was a shame that that that other dope's name ever sullied the record books.

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 03, 2016, 01:03:26 AM

Quote from: Wods317 on January 03, 2016, 12:45:04 AM

Very good points. Also look at Marquette and how terrible they were last year and they are improving in their second year. This will take time. We essentially with Ponds, Lovett and Ahmed are adding three four star players to the mix. Cupboard was left completely bare, we can start judging the job by the staff next year. This season is going to be bad and every reasonable fan knew this.

IMO, I sense Marquette will stink it up again this season.  I don't want to improve at the rate of Marquette a season from now, based on where I think they'll end up. 

Never said that we wanted to follow their plan but they are much improved from the team they had last year. There are literally 100's of examples of teams being terrible in their coaches first year and then being much much better very soon. Mullin had zero to work with this season, he has to get a pass. They still need to compete and improve but if you are going to overreact over every little thing you are in for a rude awakening becaus this team is not good and the best players are freshman who are usually inconsistent.

I'm certainly aware of the many examples of a team being terrible with a first year coach (or, just terrible in general), only to turn it around rather quickly.  I was basically saying, Marquette isn't a good example, if you're using 'em as a team that you feel has or is improving with a second year coach.  IMO, I'd like to not "improve" at that rate, as I feel Marquette is gonna stink it up again this season. 

In regards to overreacting, I'm gonna assume that was intended towards a few other posters.

Quote from: Wods317 on January 03, 2016, 09:32:03 AM

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 03, 2016, 01:03:26 AM

Quote from: Wods317 on January 03, 2016, 12:45:04 AM

Very good points. Also look at Marquette and how terrible they were last year and they are improving in their second year. This will take time. We essentially with Ponds, Lovett and Ahmed are adding three four star players to the mix. Cupboard was left completely bare, we can start judging the job by the staff next year. This season is going to be bad and every reasonable fan knew this.

IMO, I sense Marquette will stink it up again this season.  I don't want to improve at the rate of Marquette a season from now, based on where I think they'll end up. 

Never said that we wanted to follow their plan but they are much improved from the team they had last year. There are literally 100's of examples of teams being terrible in their coaches first year and then being much much better very soon. Mullin had zero to work with this season, he has to get a pass. They still need to compete and improve but if you are going to overreact over every little thing you are in for a rude awakening becaus this team is not good and the best players are freshman who are usually inconsistent.

I'm certainly aware of the many examples of a team being terrible with a first year coach (or, just terrible in general), only to turn it around rather quickly.  I was basically saying, Marquette isn't a good example, if you're using 'em as a team that you feel has or is improving with a second year coach.  IMO, I'd like to not "improve" at that rate, as I feel Marquette is gonna stink it up again this season. 

In regards to overreacting, I'm gonna assume that was intended towards a few other posters.

None of the post was aimed at you. Just a general commentary, agree with you about Marquette was jsut the first one that popped into my mind bc like us this year they were so terrible last year.

Quote from: Wods317 on January 02, 2016, 07:59:34 PM

Quote from: jumpinjohnny on January 02, 2016, 07:33:09 PM

Develop Sima Yakwe and Ellison.  I'm not sure that Mussini can be anything more than a 3 point specialist in the Big East.

Gonna be a long Big East season...for everyone's mental health I suggest you don't dissect all our 30 point losses.

Hopefully recruiting can finish strong.  Already looking forward to Lovett and Ponds in the backcourt.

Ahmed also for next year and I think Mussini has some game it will show next year when he plays more off the ball. He's still very young but I wouldn't throw him to the side just yet.

Agreed, Mussini is not a true PG and asking him to play 35 minutes a game at that position in his freshman season against BE competition is asking a ton of him. He will be a good 4 year player. Some people on this board will just never understand that only the elite freshmen are good players in their freshmen season. Hell, Cheick Diallo is an elite freshmen and even he's not good enough to play more than 10 minutes a game at the position where Kansas doesn't really have any superstars

He seems to have some basketball IQ but not the physical ability to compete at this level.  Mussini has been struggling all year.  He's got a good shot with a quick release but not much else positive to say.  He struggles on defense.  He doesn't have a good handle and therefore can't create for himself or others.  Obviously if he had better players surrounding him to take off some pressure it would help.  But then that would make him a 3 point specialist which is just fine.

Ellison has struggled too but I at least see some potential.  I don't see greatness in his future either but he at least has some upside that I just don't see in Mussini. 

Quote from: Poison on January 02, 2016, 05:40:30 PM

He's a shittier version of Avery Patterson. Where has Johnson improved? He hurts more than he helps.

Johnson is 2nd on the team in scoring, 3rd in rebounding, 3rd in assists, leads the team in steals and averages fewer TOs per game than Mussini, Balamou, Jones, Mvouika, and Ellison. If your argument is that some guy who averaged 6 points a game in his career isn't leading 17 freshmen to victory in the BE because he's not man enough, that's kind of silly. He's far from a complete ball player but he's also far from the problem.

Agree with you about Patterson though, he was the worst. Thank goodness the great D'Angelo Harrison is now the all time leader in 3 pointers made in a season, it was a shame that that that other dope's name ever sullied the record books.

I've watched Johnson play in just about every game. He phones it in, and overall, he's hurting more than he's helping because of his style of play on the court. He should be setting an example on defense. Give his minutes to Ellison. At least he can gain some BE experience, and learn where he needs to improve. Johnson never learned. This season shouldn't be about helping him figure out how to d up at this level.

Starting line up should be Sima, Yakwe, Balamou, Ellison and Mussini. Balamou only because he hustles. Jones, Amar, Johnson and Mvouika can come off the bench.

Agree with you about Patterson though, he was the worst. Thank goodness the great D'Angelo Harrison is now the all time leader in 3 pointers made in a season, it was a shame that that that other dope's name ever sullied the record books.

Second place ain't bad.  Plus the granted great 3'Lo only beat it once in 4 seasons.  The great Avery "single game three point record holder" Patterson only had one try.

The three pointer in college has been around like what, 40 seasons?  #2 is an accomplishment.

You're right about DJ2 however.  I think I'm gonna make him my Mfp.

but the negative energy this year should be focused on the fake-tan Fox sports analyst 

How can we focus negative energy on the fake-tan Fox sports analyst when he brought us 2 nit and 2 NCAA!!! appearances in 5 seasons immediately following a coach that gave us 1 Nit appearance in 6 seasons.  That's a big-time improvement that can not be denied.

We hadn't been to the Ncaa's since 2002 when he did it right out of the gate in 2011.

It's a free country, but I don't feel the need to hate on Hollywood and I'll never, ever hate on the Legend.

Quote from: Foad on January 03, 2016, 09:50:08 AM

Agree with you about Patterson though, he was the worst. Thank goodness the great D'Angelo Harrison is now the all time leader in 3 pointers made in a season, it was a shame that that that other dope's name ever sullied the record books.

Second place ain't bad.  Plus the granted great 3'Lo only beat it once in 4 seasons.  The great Avery "single game three point record holder" Patterson only had one try.

The three pointer in college has been around like what, 40 seasons?  #2 is an accomplishment.

You're right about DJ2 however.  I think I'm gonna make him my Mfp.

If Patterson was so good why weren't there Big Ten and ACC programs lining up to receive him when he left STJ? Certainly, Maryland and Duke got a look good at what he could do.

Quote from: prjohnnies on January 03, 2016, 12:21:09 AM

but the negative energy this year should be focused on the fake-tan Fox sports analyst 

How can we focus negative energy on the fake-tan Fox sports analyst when he brought us 2 nit and 2 NCAA!!! appearances in 5 seasons immediately following a coach that gave us 1 Nit appearance in 6 seasons.  That's a big-time improvement that can not be denied.

We hadn't been to the Ncaa's since 2002 when he did it right out of the gate in 2011.

It's a free country, but I don't feel the need to hate on Hollywood and I'll never, ever hate on the Legend.

Fake tan will be blamed much more next year when the games are closer.

Because one can appreciate that Lavin helped restore the program, on the one hand, and, in the other, seemingly threw in the towel to start collecting pay checks a few years into his tenure, caring little about the state of the program.  That is he only logical explanation for the roster he left us with, which is far worse than what he inherited from Norm. There is no doubt the Lavin years were far more enjoyable than his predecessor, but the way he left the program is downright shameful and shows he didn't care one bit about the school or fan base.

Quote from: prjohnnies on January 03, 2016, 12:21:09 AM

but the negative energy this year should be focused on the fake-tan Fox sports analyst 

How can we focus negative energy on the fake-tan Fox sports analyst when he brought us 2 nit and 2 NCAA!!! appearances in 5 seasons immediately following a coach that gave us 1 Nit appearance in 6 seasons.  That's a big-time improvement that can not be denied.

We hadn't been to the Ncaa's since 2002 when he did it right out of the gate in 2011.

It's a free country, but I don't feel the need to hate on Hollywood and I'll never, ever hate on the Legend.

It is easy to berate hairgel, fake tan boy.  His best team he inherited from the undeservedly maligned Norm, who developed them while Lavin took the credit.  He signed a great class and then had a hard time qualifying them )pelle Etc), lost Lindsey, coddled DLO, which worked, and Obekpa, who threw him in last year.  Recruited the Delarosa boys...nuff said...and tried to qualify Williams to cover his sorry ass when everyone else apparently thought his t-cript was a joke.  SNAKE OIL SALESMAN.  Never saw a team so new, except for perhaps Norms first team, his legacy.   How soon we forget....Norm inherited a team that was a mess, couldn't recruit because of the mess, and still developed some solid players. 

It is easy to berate hairgel, fake tan boy.  His best team he inherited from the undeservedly maligned Norm, who developed them while Lavin took the credit.  He signed a great class and then had a hard time qualifying them )pelle Etc), lost Lindsey, coddled DLO, which worked, and Obekpa, who threw him in last year.  Recruited the Delarosa boys...nuff said...and tried to qualify Williams to cover his sorry ass when everyone else apparently thought his t-cript was a joke.  SNAKE OIL SALESMAN.  Never saw a team so new, except for perhaps Norms first team, his legacy.   How soon we forget....Norm inherited a team that was a mess, couldn't recruit because of the mess, and still developed some solid players. 

Norm developed them ? LOL. The only dance Norm would ever take those kids to is to club in the city

It is easy to berate hairgel, fake tan boy.  His best team he inherited from the undeservedly maligned Norm, who developed them while Lavin took the credit.  He signed a great class and then had a hard time qualifying them )pelle Etc), lost Lindsey, coddled DLO, which worked, and Obekpa, who threw him in last year.  Recruited the Delarosa boys...nuff said...and tried to qualify Williams to cover his sorry ass when everyone else apparently thought his t-cript was a joke.  SNAKE OIL SALESMAN.  Never saw a team so new, except for perhaps Norms first team, his legacy.   How soon we forget....Norm inherited a team that was a mess, couldn't recruit because of the mess, and still developed some solid players. 

Undeservedly maligned Norm. You've got to be kidding that shit. Those kids wouldn't never achieved anything if that selfish prick was still coaching them. Norm wasn't nearly maligned enough. That dumb F had Brownlee buried on the bench, and he was too stupid to think of giving Hardy the ball. You can point to Lavin for his failures, but at least he had some success. Born accomplished nothing here. Absolutely nothing, and all of that is 100% on him.

Quote from: cjfish on January 03, 2016, 04:55:26 PM

It is easy to berate hairgel, fake tan boy.  His best team he inherited from the undeservedly maligned Norm, who developed them while Lavin took the credit.  He signed a great class and then had a hard time qualifying them )pelle Etc), lost Lindsey, coddled DLO, which worked, and Obekpa, who threw him in last year.  Recruited the Delarosa boys...nuff said...and tried to qualify Williams to cover his sorry ass when everyone else apparently thought his t-cript was a joke.  SNAKE OIL SALESMAN.  Never saw a team so new, except for perhaps Norms first team, his legacy.   How soon we forget....Norm inherited a team that was a mess, couldn't recruit because of the mess, and still developed some solid players. 

Undeservedly maligned Norm. You've got to be kidding that shit. Those kids wouldn't never achieved anything if that selfish prick was still coaching them. Norm wasn't nearly maligned enough. That dumb F had Brownlee buried on the bench, and he was too stupid to think of giving Hardy the ball. You can point to Lavin for his failures, but at least he had some success. Born accomplished nothing here. Absolutely nothing, and all of that is 100% on him.

Neither accomplished much. Barely getting an at large with  a top recruiting class as seniors and getting pounded in the 1st round  isn't much to hang your hat on.