Seton Hall Game thread

Rock bottom- nova coming to the garden Sunday .

I see this season like I did the one in 04-05 and 12-13. We have so little to work, a close game is promising for the future. I don't think Mullin has done a bad job coaching since BE play began, but I think it's clear that the great recruiting that so many people lauded the staff for in such a short period of time is a load of shit. They actually didn't such a great job.

I think it's fair to say that they did a good job because there are pieces in place for the future, but in terms of the grad students and even with guys like Stewart and Henderson, (and maybe DelaRosa if he was eligible) the staff brought in two lazy guys that never should have been playing at this level, when they should have considered continuity instead.

I think you can spread the blame for this horrendous season equally between the players and staff. There's teams around the country that are way less talented than we are on paper however they play like a team. That's partly the lack of chemistry, players bball IQ, as well as the coaching staff.

I was never expecting much this season however there needs to be huge improvement from the sideline as much as from the players. There will be plenty of talent here starting next year and that's when the real report cards come out for everyone.

I think you can spread the blame for this horrendous season equally between the players and staff. There's teams around the country that are way less talented than we are on paper however they play like a team. That's partly the lack of chemistry, players bball IQ, as well as the coaching staff.

I was never expecting much this season however there needs to be huge improvement from the sideline as much as from the players. There will be plenty of talent here starting next year and that's when the real report cards come out for everyone.

The staff picked M'vouika, Williams and Johnson. They should have known better. They also picked freshman, and overall that's what we wanted them to do. However, stacking a roster with 7 guys who play the 3 and one guy with serious eligibility questions to run the point is what killed this season, and the overall development of the program.

Hopefully next year, we see Mussini playing the role that Marco Bourgault had a few years ago. Amar Alibegovic has improved, and I think he can give us some minutes next year should he continue to improve. But these guys can't play major minutes at the D1 level. Their skills are too limited. Sima could start. Yakwe could, too, but I'm counting the staff to make sure that they know what they need to work on this summer, and do everything in their power to make sure they do it. That is the real to this programs development.

Sima - adds muscle and learns an up and under
Yakwe - works on free throw shooting, and plays organized ball so he can work on his in-game decision making
Mussini - hit the weight room, improve cardio and dammit, eat something!
Ellison - Kid needs to be out there playing, and he needs to be taught how to finish amongst the trees. He often does a good job getting into the lane and then he loses the ball, throws up a crazy shot or just blows the layup. I don't think tit can give up on him yet. It's way too soon. Don't forget, Cedric Jackson played like this, too.
Alibegovic - Work on your footwork. Learn an up and under move. Learn how box out. He needs to play more organized ball over the summer. He's been able to drive to the basket and score occasionally this year. That's nice, and sure we'll take it. But we don't want to see him putting the ball on the floor. He should be taught how to play like a strong 6'11 guy should. You grab an offensive board, go up strong big fella.

I think Jones is gone, and I'm not gonna kill the kid because he's had moments this year. Not a lot of them, but considering where he was, he has improved. Thing is, even if he can score some at this level, he really can't defend anyone. He doesn't have the length and he doesn't understand the game as well as a guy like Owens, who would certainly play over him and Alibegovic. Jones should transfer for his one season to a small Texas school like North Texas where he can play against opponents that are closer to his level.

The staff picked M'vouika, Williams and Johnson. They should have known better. They also picked freshman, and overall that's what we wanted them to do. However, stacking a roster with 7 guys who play the 3 and one guy with serious eligibility questions to run the point is what killed this season, and the overall development of the program.

Hopefully next year, we see Mussini playing the role that Marco Bourgault had a few years ago. Amar Alibegovic has improved, and I think he can give us some minutes next year should he continue to improve. But these guys can't play major minutes at the D1 level. Their skills are too limited. Sima could start. Yakwe could, too, but I'm counting the staff to make sure that they know what they need to work on this summer, and do everything in their power to make sure they do it. That is the real to this programs development.

Sima - adds muscle and learns an up and under
Yakwe - works on free throw shooting, and plays organized ball so he can work on his in-game decision making
Mussini - hit the weight room, improve cardio and dammit, eat something!
Ellison - Kid needs to be out there playing, and he needs to be taught how to finish amongst the trees. He often does a good job getting into the lane and then he loses the ball, throws up a crazy shot or just blows the layup. I don't think tit can give up on him yet. It's way too soon. Don't forget, Cedric Jackson played like this, too.
Alibegovic - Work on your footwork. Learn an up and under move. Learn how box out. He needs to play more organized ball over the summer. He's been able to drive to the basket and score occasionally this year. That's nice, and sure we'll take it. But we don't want to see him putting the ball on the floor. He should be taught how to play like a strong 6'11 guy should. You grab an offensive board, go up strong big fella.

I think Jones is gone, and I'm not gonna kill the kid because he's had moments this year. Not a lot of them, but considering where he was, he has improved. Thing is, even if he can score some at this level, he really can't defend anyone. He doesn't have the length and he doesn't understand the game as well as a guy like Owens, who would certainly play over him and Alibegovic. Jones should transfer for his one season to a small Texas school like North Texas where he can play against opponents that are closer to his level.

To be fair to the staff, I suspect there was not a lot of talent floating around last May. That's why they were forced to take a chance with someone like Durand Johnson, who had not played organized basketball in two years. If you're questioning whether Slice and MA are capable recruiters, that's kind of crazy. If you go to the grocery store before a big storm (you know, one of those 15" ers where it's too dangerous to go outside) and there's no bread and milk left you might pick up some Chef Boyardee and Hawaian Punch, even though you know it's not very good for you, just because that's all that's left. Pretty clearly that's what happened here. The one mistake they made was putting all their eggs in Lovett's basket, because even a halfway competent PG would have made a huge difference.

OTOH, your player evaluations are mostly spot on. The two bigs will be fine - Yawke will be an absolute stud in a couple of years. Ellison is awful, but you only have to go back to Dom Pointer to find an aggressive athletic kid with no idea how to play basketball. Ellison though has the advantage of not being coached by a complete buffoon. Ali-make-a-wish better learn to play power forward, because from what I've read Freudenberg is the stretch four Lavin claimed AA was. And hopefully Mussini progesses beyond Bourgault's role, which was essentially keeping the bench warm for Max Hooper. He is at this point though painful to watch: he does nothing well.

once Sima was lost we went form bad to horrible,  can not play with a 6-7 center and Ali inside.  Got outrebounded by 16 which is not a surprise.  Not faulting the staff for the nature of this team.  Lovett not qualifying is obviously the worst problem.  The unbalanced makeup of the team is unfortunate but is a result of the staff scrambling for ANYONE to put on the court after the mess that Lavin wrought.  Yakwe, Sima and Mussini will all be very good (all 3 need to be on the famous QUeens pizza diet with shakes or beers on the side....Mussini at 180 will be much better).  Ellison will probably develop nicely and Ali will be an OK roleplayer.  Patience is the order of the day.  I will continue to watch to see the kids develop but, yes, they may not win a game unless Sima is back and in form for DePaul.   

No doubt about it, this season has turned into a very tough slog.  If it's as hard as it is on us fans, imagine what the players must feel like, especially the young kids who are showing signs of feeling the pressure of this losing streak.  Aside from Yakwe's blocks, athleticism, and motor, not a whole lot to be excited about lately.  And how hard must all this losing be for our coaches? Slice left Kentucky, Matt a very successful program and one of the game's best home courts at Iowa State,  Mitch excelled at the highest level of his sport, and CM is an all-time all-timer, yet they all signed on for this because they believed that they could build something very special here.

We have to trust that better times are coming, as the kids we have sitting out, injured, and coming aboard next year all indicate.  Nobody said this was going to be easy, but now we're all finding out exactly for hard it is.  Any game we win this year, and every game we win next year, will be the sweeter for what this team is going through now.  We're laying a foundation, and it's hard, dirty work.  Believe in the process.

+1

Quote from: Poison on January 28, 2016, 09:14:53 AM

The staff picked M'vouika, Williams and Johnson. They should have known better. They also picked freshman, and overall that's what we wanted them to do. However, stacking a roster with 7 guys who play the 3 and one guy with serious eligibility questions to run the point is what killed this season, and the overall development of the program.

Hopefully next year, we see Mussini playing the role that Marco Bourgault had a few years ago. Amar Alibegovic has improved, and I think he can give us some minutes next year should he continue to improve. But these guys can't play major minutes at the D1 level. Their skills are too limited. Sima could start. Yakwe could, too, but I'm counting the staff to make sure that they know what they need to work on this summer, and do everything in their power to make sure they do it. That is the real to this programs development.

Sima - adds muscle and learns an up and under
Yakwe - works on free throw shooting, and plays organized ball so he can work on his in-game decision making
Mussini - hit the weight room, improve cardio and dammit, eat something!
Ellison - Kid needs to be out there playing, and he needs to be taught how to finish amongst the trees. He often does a good job getting into the lane and then he loses the ball, throws up a crazy shot or just blows the layup. I don't think tit can give up on him yet. It's way too soon. Don't forget, Cedric Jackson played like this, too.
Alibegovic - Work on your footwork. Learn an up and under move. Learn how box out. He needs to play more organized ball over the summer. He's been able to drive to the basket and score occasionally this year. That's nice, and sure we'll take it. But we don't want to see him putting the ball on the floor. He should be taught how to play like a strong 6'11 guy should. You grab an offensive board, go up strong big fella.

I think Jones is gone, and I'm not gonna kill the kid because he's had moments this year. Not a lot of them, but considering where he was, he has improved. Thing is, even if he can score some at this level, he really can't defend anyone. He doesn't have the length and he doesn't understand the game as well as a guy like Owens, who would certainly play over him and Alibegovic. Jones should transfer for his one season to a small Texas school like North Texas where he can play against opponents that are closer to his level.

To be fair to the staff, I suspect there was not a lot of talent floating around last May. That's why they were forced to take a chance with someone like Durand Johnson, who had not played organized basketball in two years. If you're questioning whether Slice and MA are capable recruiters, that's kind of crazy. If you go to the grocery store before a big storm (you know, one of those 15" ers where it's too dangerous to go outside) and there's no bread and milk left you might pick up some Chef Boyardee and Hawaian Punch, even though you know it's not very good for you, just because that's all that's left. Pretty clearly that's what happened here. The one mistake they made was putting all their eggs in Lovett's basket, because even a halfway competent PG would have made a huge difference.

OTOH, your player evaluations are mostly spot on. The two bigs will be fine - Yawke will be an absolute stud in a couple of years. Ellison is awful, but you only have to go back to Dom Pointer to find an aggressive athletic kid with no idea how to play basketball. Ellison though has the advantage of not being coached by a complete buffoon. Ali-make-a-wish better learn to play power forward, because from what I've read Freudenberg is the stretch four Lavin claimed AA was. And hopefully Mussini progesses beyond Bourgault's role, which was essentially keeping the bench warm for Max Hooper. He is at this point though painful to watch: he does nothing well.

Ali-Make-a-wish =  brilliant

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 28, 2016, 08:32:50 AM

Rock bottom- nova coming to the garden Sunday .

but I think it's clear that the great recruiting that so many people lauded the staff for in such a short period of time is a load of shit. They actually didn't such a great job.

There were only a handful of impact grad transfers on the market at that time, and they rightfully went to programs with a legitimate shot of a deep tournament run.  Guys like Damion Lee and Shonn Miller, undeniably good enough for the highest level, wouldn't bother with a complete teardown/rebuild no matter the coach, school, city, home arena, etc.  I think it's fair to say that Johnson has underperformed expectations, but what was realistically expected from M'Vouika?  He was a decent player at a mid major and was coming off a substantial injury.

Our starting center and starting PG are not playing.  Sima and Lovett were arguably the two pieces most praised, and they unfortunately are not able to contribute right now.  With the two of them in the lineup and Johnson playing at a level that we reasonably could have expected, this team would be much better.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if we win 7 games or 12 games this year so long as the program is set up for next year and beyond.  The grad transfers were nothing but band aids

Rock bottom- nova coming to the garden Sunday .

followed shortly by X on the road.

Quote from: Poison on January 28, 2016, 09:14:53 AM

The staff picked M'vouika, Williams and Johnson. They should have known better. They also picked freshman, and overall that's what we wanted them to do. However, stacking a roster with 7 guys who play the 3 and one guy with serious eligibility questions to run the point is what killed this season, and the overall development of the program.

Hopefully next year, we see Mussini playing the role that Marco Bourgault had a few years ago. Amar Alibegovic has improved, and I think he can give us some minutes next year should he continue to improve. But these guys can't play major minutes at the D1 level. Their skills are too limited. Sima could start. Yakwe could, too, but I'm counting the staff to make sure that they know what they need to work on this summer, and do everything in their power to make sure they do it. That is the real to this programs development.

Sima - adds muscle and learns an up and under
Yakwe - works on free throw shooting, and plays organized ball so he can work on his in-game decision making
Mussini - hit the weight room, improve cardio and dammit, eat something!
Ellison - Kid needs to be out there playing, and he needs to be taught how to finish amongst the trees. He often does a good job getting into the lane and then he loses the ball, throws up a crazy shot or just blows the layup. I don't think tit can give up on him yet. It's way too soon. Don't forget, Cedric Jackson played like this, too.
Alibegovic - Work on your footwork. Learn an up and under move. Learn how box out. He needs to play more organized ball over the summer. He's been able to drive to the basket and score occasionally this year. That's nice, and sure we'll take it. But we don't want to see him putting the ball on the floor. He should be taught how to play like a strong 6'11 guy should. You grab an offensive board, go up strong big fella.

I think Jones is gone, and I'm not gonna kill the kid because he's had moments this year. Not a lot of them, but considering where he was, he has improved. Thing is, even if he can score some at this level, he really can't defend anyone. He doesn't have the length and he doesn't understand the game as well as a guy like Owens, who would certainly play over him and Alibegovic. Jones should transfer for his one season to a small Texas school like North Texas where he can play against opponents that are closer to his level.

To be fair to the staff, I suspect there was not a lot of talent floating around last May. That's why they were forced to take a chance with someone like Durand Johnson, who had not played organized basketball in two years. If you're questioning whether Slice and MA are capable recruiters, that's kind of crazy. If you go to the grocery store before a big storm (you know, one of those 15" ers where it's too dangerous to go outside) and there's no bread and milk left you might pick up some Chef Boyardee and Hawaian Punch, even though you know it's not very good for you, just because that's all that's left. Pretty clearly that's what happened here. The one mistake they made was putting all their eggs in Lovett's basket, because even a halfway competent PG would have made a huge difference.

OTOH, your player evaluations are mostly spot on. The two bigs will be fine - Yawke will be an absolute stud in a couple of years. Ellison is awful, but you only have to go back to Dom Pointer to find an aggressive athletic kid with no idea how to play basketball. Ellison though has the advantage of not being coached by a complete buffoon. Ali-make-a-wish better learn to play power forward, because from what I've read Freudenberg is the stretch four Lavin claimed AA was. And hopefully Mussini progesses beyond Bourgault's role, which was essentially keeping the bench warm for Max Hooper. He is at this point though painful to watch: he does nothing well.

The staff probably took Johnson and Mvouika because they knew they'd be gone in a year. I suppose they were risks worth taking.

once Sima was lost we went form bad to horrible,  can not play with a 6-7 center and Ali inside.  Got outrebounded by 16 which is not a surprise.  Not faulting the staff for the nature of this team.  Lovett not qualifying is obviously the worst problem.  The unbalanced makeup of the team is unfortunate but is a result of the staff scrambling for ANYONE to put on the court after the mess that Lavin wrought.  Yakwe, Sima and Mussini will all be very good (all 3 need to be on the famous QUeens pizza diet with shakes or beers on the side....Mussini at 180 will be much better).  Ellison will probably develop nicely and Ali will be an OK roleplayer.  Patience is the order of the day.  I will continue to watch to see the kids develop but, yes, they may not win a game unless Sima is back and in form for DePaul.   

Is that really the biggest problem? Incarnate Word beat the snot out of us with Sima, and SIma looked terrible. He looked terrible against NJIT, too. I think Yakwe is more athletic than Sima, and he's played incredibly, and quite frankly, unbelievably well starting at the 5 in Sima's absence. I think the biggest problem is that there isn't anyone who can get their own shot, and the experienced players on the team don't play like upperclassmen.

And in regards to the staff scrambling to get anyone to come here, I don't think we can make a blanket statement like that without considering that St.John's had Sampson and Obekpa. 17 years ago, Fran recruited Barkley and Bootsy. They could have left when he was fired, and they chose to stay and play for Jarvis.

Quote from: cjfish on January 28, 2016, 10:25:08 AM

once Sima was lost we went form bad to horrible,  can not play with a 6-7 center and Ali inside.  Got outrebounded by 16 which is not a surprise.  Not faulting the staff for the nature of this team.  Lovett not qualifying is obviously the worst problem.  The unbalanced makeup of the team is unfortunate but is a result of the staff scrambling for ANYONE to put on the court after the mess that Lavin wrought.  Yakwe, Sima and Mussini will all be very good (all 3 need to be on the famous QUeens pizza diet with shakes or beers on the side....Mussini at 180 will be much better).  Ellison will probably develop nicely and Ali will be an OK roleplayer.  Patience is the order of the day.  I will continue to watch to see the kids develop but, yes, they may not win a game unless Sima is back and in form for DePaul.   

Is that really the biggest problem? Incarnate Word beat the snot out of us with Sima, and SIma looked terrible. He looked terrible against NJIT, too. I think Yakwe is more athletic than Sima, and he's played incredibly, and quite frankly, unbelievably well starting at the 5 in Sima's absence. I think the biggest problem is that there isn't anyone who can get their own shot, and the experienced players on the team don't play like upperclassmen.

Sima had 11 pts , 5, 4 blks on 5-8 shooting vs incarnate word. Against NJIT he had 6 pts, 14 rbs, 3 blks, 3 stls, on 3-4 shooting.  If that is terrible then I cant wait till he develops

I agree that the biggest problem is no one to create any offense for themselves or teammates.

I know our only chance of beating anyone is by running as much as possible. The idea being get down before the defense sets up and get some easy ( layups ) baskets. But someone has to tell them you can't run on every play. And if the outlet pass is covered don't throw the dam ball. I swear I counted 15 turnovers off of bad outlet passes even when we had 2 on 1's or 3 on 2's.

gotta rebound to run and this will be a major problem until Sima isback

gotta rebound to run and this will be a major problem until Sima isback

Someone would also have to know how to dribble.

Admittedly my attention lapsed during the Seton Hall debacle but it seemed like Yakwe was not in the game in the second half until around the 12 minute mark. Is this right and if it is anyone know why he was on the bench for that period. Believe he was benched in first half after picking up second foul but maybe it was his third which would explain things.

gotta rebound to run and this will be a major problem until Sima isback

We had enough rebounds in the first half because they played even worse then we did. Our problem was giving turnovers off of turnovers due mostly to poor decision making on outlet passes.

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 28, 2016, 12:04:50 AM

Quote from: Johnnystar on January 27, 2016, 08:23:38 PM

Quote from: Celtics11 on January 27, 2016, 08:16:58 PM

I don't care what our talent level is or how inexperienced we are this is garbage basketball and we take a ton of ridiculous shots.

Literally can't watch anymore.

Lately, I haven't been watching games.  I only saw the first half of the Butler game a couple weeks ago.  But, I didn't watch the G'town game, Marquette game (the one from Sunday), nor tonight's game.  I can't watch this stuff any longer.  If I have something else I wanna do, then I'll just go ahead and do so.  I could've watched tonight's game (or, the other games mentioned), but decided against it.   

I may take a look at our Big East Tournament game, but I think I've checked out from watching games the remainder of this season.  It's gonna be tough to get me to watch the rest of the way.   

Must confess Dink, I do the same.

Not I.  I still attend my same 5 to 10 events live then either watch/listen to the rest on Tv/radio.

As a true Johnny fan, I rather enjoy the punishment and revel in the pain I've long grown accustomed to.

However,  I do have a dream I'll share that helps me through even the darkest of our frequent bleak periods:

The year is 2050 something.  I'm sitting in the wheel chair section of some nondescript arena in a random mid-western state.  Tears of joy are streaming down my face.  My young great grand-daughter Francesca is seated next to me and says, "Poppy, what's the matter?"  I haltingly reply, "Nothing my precious Bambina.  Poppy is very, very happy.  Now finally I can die in peace."

The End