Creighton Predictions

^^This. I think the only person I ever saw take charges on the last team was Dom. Everyone on this team does it or at least tries. And for all the crap you wanna give Durand, he's on the floor quicker than anybody.

Durand has been avoiding contact all season.

Perhaps the coach should have motivated the team to actually play hard against an inferior opponent and -- this is going out on the limb -- try to win a game.  If Lavin's relationship with Sampson was as good as people say, you think the former could have motivated the latter to play with some pride in what was his last game as a Johnnie.

Hard to motivate a team if it is true as reported the "coach" showed up at game time. I think slow service at Rao's was the excuse.

I love how some can pretend they actually knew the attitudes and personalities of some of the last team that came through here. Rightly or wrongly that NIT team was recruited as your classic boom or bust team. Unfortunately it  did not work out that season. With the personalities on that team and close friendships I have formed with several of the players I can honestly tell you that the best option for them was to not take the court that game. I dont see it acting so much of hubris by rejecting the bid as I do to getting a jump start to the next season and end it knowing you were missing something. And the quest begins after the Selection Sunday to achieve that goal with its constantly motivating you. That is what the team, needed not a meaningless NIT game.

And to say Dom is the only one that worked hard is disgusting and frankly I am insulted. You must have not watched most of the games. Yes sometimes Karr slacked off but hardly ever did Dee, Phil, and Jamal. Especially the last couple years. Even Sheed in games busted his ass and took several charges.

The only ones this season who consistently have done that are Yakwe, Fellix,  and to an extent Sima although he is limited with injury.  Mussini was inconsistent.

And since when did Stith see serious minutes? And Nuri was gone very soon. By the 6 that played I meant Dee, Phil, Dom, Gift, Moe, and Amir which was not as massive as they would have been full class intact intact.  Get your facts straight.

And since when did Stith see serious minutes? And Nuri was gone very soon. By the 6 that played I meant Dee, Phil, Dom, Gift, Moe, and Amir which was not as massive as they would have been full class intact intact.  Get your facts straight.

Yeah, I'll get facts straight. First let me refresh your memory.

You said in trashing Mullin and lauding Lavin - which is the sole myopic point you make - that Mullin's team shows "no effort" and play "dumb basketball." You did this in the context of a discussion of Lavin's third year with his first recruiting class and specifically the game in which they got blown out in the post season by a team from the NEC. Which pathetic performance you (a) participated in and (b) have an excuse for, having studied at the feet of the master excuse maker Steve Lavin, who has spent his professional career taking personal credit for each of his team's victories while disavowing blame for every defeat.

So then I chimes in to point out that in his first year with that highly regarded recruiting class Lavin won 13 games and got the shit kicked out of himself on a regular basis. I made that comparison because this is Mullin's first year with this hastily thrown together recruiting class and comparing Lavin's fourth year with Mullin's first year is pointless and besides which betrays your clear bias.

Then you brilliantly pointed out that those first year guys were all freshmen, which of course they were, that was the point I was making. Your underlying point seems to be that Mullin has the advantage of having great returnees like Felix Balamou and Amir Alibleigiwtch and Chris Jones to help him along while poor Steve Lavin did not, this despite the fact that Mullin's returnees were evidently so atrocious at playing basketball that they rarely saw the floor in their careers prior to this year, this despite the fact that as you point out yourself there were times when Lavin - having given up recruiting early in his tenure in favor of pasta and meatballs - often barely had enough players to field a team.

And now, when it turns out that you were wrong, that they were not all freshmen, you tell me I should get my facts straight because Malik Stith didn't play a lot of minutes. My suggestion to you would be that since you were the one who was wrong - I didn't say anything about anyone's minutes - you get your facts straight, and your logic straight, and while you're at it brush up on your rhetoric, because that's pretty shoddy as well.

Which brings us to the right now, when I tell you to go home and get your shine box.

Mic drop

Quote from: friendofjohnnie on February 29, 2016, 11:48:12 PM

And since when did Stith see serious minutes? And Nuri was gone very soon. By the 6 that played I meant Dee, Phil, Dom, Gift, Moe, and Amir which was not as massive as they would have been full class intact intact.  Get your facts straight.

Yeah, I'll get facts straight. First let me refresh your memory.

You said in trashing Mullin and lauding Lavin - which is the sole myopic point you make - that Mullin's team shows "no effort" and play "dumb basketball." You did this in the context of a discussion of Lavin's third year with his first recruiting class and specifically the game in which they got blown out in the post season by a team from the NEC. Which pathetic performance you (a) participated in and (b) have an excuse for, having studied at the feet of the master excuse maker Steve Lavin, who has spent his professional career taking personal credit for each of his team's victories while disavowing blame for every defeat.

So then I chimes in to point out that in his first year with that highly regarded recruiting class Lavin won 13 games and got the shit kicked out of himself on a regular basis. I made that comparison because this is Mullin's first year with this hastily thrown together recruiting class and comparing Lavin's fourth year with Mullin's first year is pointless and besides which betrays your clear bias.

Then you brilliantly pointed out that those first year guys were all freshmen, which of course they were, that was the point I was making. Your underlying point seems to be that Mullin has the advantage of having great returnees like Felix Balamou and Amir Alibleigiwtch and Chris Jones to help him along while poor Steve Lavin did not, this despite the fact that Mullin's returnees were evidently so atrocious at playing basketball that they rarely saw the floor in their careers prior to this year, this despite the fact that as you point out yourself there were times when Lavin - having given up recruiting early in his tenure in favor of pasta and meatballs - often barely had enough players to field a team.

And now, when it turns out that you were wrong, that they were not all freshmen, you tell me I should get my facts straight because Malik Stith didn't play a lot of minutes. My suggestion to you would be that since you were the one who was wrong - I didn't say anything about anyone's minutes - you get your facts straight, and your logic straight, and while you're at it brush up on your rhetoric, because that's pretty shoddy as well.

Which brings us to the right now, when I tell you to go home and get your shine box.

Thats a lot of assumptions and putting words in somones mouth. You really have no idea what I was talking about and completely misread or have been misreading my posts. Go back to SAT Reading Comprehension then maybe we can talk.

-I never once referred to Lavin as some master force. The comparison in this thread were to players giving reasonable effort forget wins and losses. That freshman team under Dunlap gave it their all 80 percent of the time with 5-6 players regularly as a rotation. There were blowouts but there were also some hard fought games and upsets that this group with more players and depth could only dream of.  This is a group that played A&M, Arizona, and Duke very tough. They even managed to knock off Notre Dame, UCLA, West Virginia, and Cinci as yes ALL freshman. And to further take you down memory lane Stith was barely in rotation first semester AND he left the team second semester making it even harder for them.

As for this year's team I never said the returnees spectacular, I said the team as a whole collectively has not showed enough effort even in losses with the exception of Felix, Yakwe, and Sima who is playing injured. Mussini had his moments as did Amar but in general it was more than being overmatched by talent it was also being overmatched by effort. And yes I did not expect a great season but I damn well thought we could knock off Incarnate, NJIT, and Fordham (another team that D'angelos team beat with 5 yes 5 players) and not get absolutely DESTROYED by a cupcake.  Do you realize how hard it is to play a game with no subs and still win as FRESHMAN, that is is called heart and effort.

And as an aside even though the point here is not Steve Lavin what you just said is pretty disgusting. Lav taking personal credit for everything you could not be more wrong. He was a player's coach and went out of his way to help his players and many former players even from UCLA still communicate with him regularly. And yes blame was taken by him as he always tried to see optimism in defeat. And as some would argue was even OVERPROTECTIVE at times of his players like Sheed so you could not be more wrong there.

Who cares about Malik Stith and Steve Lavin. The past is the past give it a rest. Talk about this current team or next year or something but every thread you rehash the details of Lavins tenure but who cares about that, he is gone.

Once again  another one who is making stuff up!! I am not looking to rehash Malik Stith or Steve Lavin here. Steve Lavin does not even apply because he did not even coach that freshman team. The comparison is players and effort they have shown their freshman season. It was Foad that keeps using this as an anti-Lavin bash and is arguing with me about Stith. I am keeping it at players and effort.

And my entire point is to be CRYSTAL CLEAR is that D'angelos team freshman year showed way more effort with less players than this years team except Yakwe and Sima, that is the EXTENT of it!  And the reason why this is important is because the proper gauge for freshman and the team going forward. Do not want to see these bad habits when they have a real team next year.

So please stop distorting my words.

And as an aside even though the point here is not Steve Lavin what you just said is pretty disgusting. Lav taking personal credit for everything you could not be more wrong. He was a player's coach and went out of his way to help his players and many former players even from UCLA still communicate with him regularly. And yes blame was taken by him as he always tried to see optimism in defeat. And as some would argue was even OVERPROTECTIVE at times of his players like Sheed so you could not be more wrong there.

I've taken the liberty of hosing most of your post, because (a) you seem to be frothing at the mouth and (b) I actually did pretty well on my SATs. Also I was made the Honor Roll in 7th grade and got an A in Advanced English with Miss Ackerman. So as you can see my credentials are quite impressive.

Re Steve Lavin, Steve Lavin is an awful basketball coach, which is all the more remarkable when you consider all the time he's spent studying the sport at the feet of his alleged mentors, from best man John Wooden, to Pete Newell to Bob Knight to Mike Scgrewshrinki.

Steve Lavin is an empty-suit glad-handing bimbo. Steve Lavin is dumb; he is an airhead. He is a fraud, a charlatan, a mountebank and snake oil salesman. At SJU Steve Lavin reported to a job that paid $515 a day in a sweat suit and sneakers, a job that he felt "no pressure" to succeed at and at which not surprisingly he failed. When he wasn't busy not succeeding he was spouting incomprehensible and illogical non sequiturs and analogies, vapid platitudes, and nonsensical illiterate new age psychobabble, all of which in an attempt to befuddle the rubes, in which category I would include you.

Steve Lavin is a vacuous narcissistic star #$%^ing publicity whore. He takes credit for other peoples accomplishments and deflects even the slightest criticism of his myriad flaws by blaming those around him for his own mistakes and shortcomings, and where there are none of those around, kismet, the stars and his prostate. He does this because he suffers from various psychological maladaptations, including histrionic personality disorder and youngest child syndrome.

And those are what I consider his virtues. About Steve Lavin I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Hammer to Rock

I love how some can pretend they actually knew the attitudes and personalities of some of the last team that came through here. Rightly or wrongly that NIT team was recruited as your classic boom or bust team. Unfortunately it  did not work out that season. With the personalities on that team and close friendships I have formed with several of the players I can honestly tell you that the best option for them was to not take the court that game. I dont see it acting so much of hubris by rejecting the bid as I do to getting a jump start to the next season and end it knowing you were missing something. And the quest begins after the Selection Sunday to achieve that goal with its constantly motivating you. That is what the team, needed not a meaningless NIT game.

And to say Dom is the only one that worked hard is disgusting and frankly I am insulted. You must have not watched most of the games. Yes sometimes Karr slacked off but hardly ever did Dee, Phil, and Jamal. Especially the last couple years. Even Sheed in games busted his ass and took several charges.

The only ones this season who consistently have done that are Yakwe, Fellix,  and to an extent Sima although he is limited with injury.  Mussini was inconsistent.

And since when did Stith see serious minutes? And Nuri was gone very soon. By the 6 that played I meant Dee, Phil, Dom, Gift, Moe, and Amir which was not as massive as they would have been full class intact intact.  Get your facts straight.

The facts are that Lavin's haul was a 10 man class ranked 3rd in the nation. But you don't get credit for the #3 ranked class in the nation if that class doesn't suit up and play. And it didn't. The guys who played, played well, overall. Not as well as their press clippings would indicate, but they played well. The team had a winning record for 3/4 seasons.

That said, is this the bar that you want for St.John's? To be better than Norm Roberts? Lavin wasn't all bad, but I think we can put this bed by agreeing that he finished up his 5 years earning a C+/B-

Agreed?

Lavin was fired. The bar has to be better then Lavin.

Lavin was fired. The bar has to be better then Lavin.

Are we going to give Mullin 5 years to see if he can leap over that one post season win bar Lavin set or is there a different metric.

Quote from: friendofjohnnie on February 29, 2016, 11:48:12 PM

I love how some can pretend they actually knew the attitudes and personalities of some of the last team that came through here. Rightly or wrongly that NIT team was recruited as your classic boom or bust team. Unfortunately it  did not work out that season. With the personalities on that team and close friendships I have formed with several of the players I can honestly tell you that the best option for them was to not take the court that game. I dont see it acting so much of hubris by rejecting the bid as I do to getting a jump start to the next season and end it knowing you were missing something. And the quest begins after the Selection Sunday to achieve that goal with its constantly motivating you. That is what the team, needed not a meaningless NIT game.

And to say Dom is the only one that worked hard is disgusting and frankly I am insulted. You must have not watched most of the games. Yes sometimes Karr slacked off but hardly ever did Dee, Phil, and Jamal. Especially the last couple years. Even Sheed in games busted his ass and took several charges.

The only ones this season who consistently have done that are Yakwe, Fellix,  and to an extent Sima although he is limited with injury.  Mussini was inconsistent.

And since when did Stith see serious minutes? And Nuri was gone very soon. By the 6 that played I meant Dee, Phil, Dom, Gift, Moe, and Amir which was not as massive as they would have been full class intact intact.  Get your facts straight.

The facts are that Lavin's haul was a 10 man class ranked 3rd in the nation. But you don't get credit for the #3 ranked class in the nation if that class doesn't suit up and play. And it didn't. The guys who played, played well, overall. Not as well as their press clippings would indicate, but they played well. The team had a winning record for 3/4 seasons.

That said, is this the bar that you want for St.John's? To be better than Norm Roberts? Lavin wasn't all bad, but I think we can put this bed by agreeing that he finished up his 5 years earning a C+/B-

Agreed?

Yea, not all of them made it so it really was not the top 3 class that did not live up to expectations that many have said. NBA/MLB departures, and DQs all must be considered.  The core that stayed of Dom , Dee,  Phil were good players. My main argument has just been that at the same age as these guys now I saw more effort despite the tough odds and at least we got some good upsets. Playing 5-6 men deep every night is alot to ask of freshman and they had battle that I have not seen of any freshman this year except Yakwe. My hope is the others next season pick it up and show that effort.

As for grades your assessment overall is not far off although I probably would have given him a B. I give him that for the fact that he made us relevant again and each season  we had some excitement and were competitive with NCAA  aspirations (except freshman when DQs happened)  even though they did not always pan out.

And not to rehash stuff but I think Lavin's  fall was putting too much into Briscoe and Co without a backup plan. That being said if Briscoe came we arent having this discussion today.

Quote from: Foad on March 01, 2016, 08:21:35 AM

Quote from: friendofjohnnie on February 29, 2016, 11:48:12 PM

And since when did Stith see serious minutes? And Nuri was gone very soon. By the 6 that played I meant Dee, Phil, Dom, Gift, Moe, and Amir which was not as massive as they would have been full class intact intact.  Get your facts straight.

Yeah, I'll get facts straight. First let me refresh your memory.

You said in trashing Mullin and lauding Lavin - which is the sole myopic point you make - that Mullin's team shows "no effort" and play "dumb basketball." You did this in the context of a discussion of Lavin's third year with his first recruiting class and specifically the game in which they got blown out in the post season by a team from the NEC. Which pathetic performance you (a) participated in and (b) have an excuse for, having studied at the feet of the master excuse maker Steve Lavin, who has spent his professional career taking personal credit for each of his team's victories while disavowing blame for every defeat.

So then I chimes in to point out that in his first year with that highly regarded recruiting class Lavin won 13 games and got the shit kicked out of himself on a regular basis. I made that comparison because this is Mullin's first year with this hastily thrown together recruiting class and comparing Lavin's fourth year with Mullin's first year is pointless and besides which betrays your clear bias.

Then you brilliantly pointed out that those first year guys were all freshmen, which of course they were, that was the point I was making. Your underlying point seems to be that Mullin has the advantage of having great returnees like Felix Balamou and Amir Alibleigiwtch and Chris Jones to help him along while poor Steve Lavin did not, this despite the fact that Mullin's returnees were evidently so atrocious at playing basketball that they rarely saw the floor in their careers prior to this year, this despite the fact that as you point out yourself there were times when Lavin - having given up recruiting early in his tenure in favor of pasta and meatballs - often barely had enough players to field a team.

And now, when it turns out that you were wrong, that they were not all freshmen, you tell me I should get my facts straight because Malik Stith didn't play a lot of minutes. My suggestion to you would be that since you were the one who was wrong - I didn't say anything about anyone's minutes - you get your facts straight, and your logic straight, and while you're at it brush up on your rhetoric, because that's pretty shoddy as well.

Which brings us to the right now, when I tell you to go home and get your shine box.

Thats a lot of assumptions and putting words in somones mouth. You really have no idea what I was talking about and completely misread or have been misreading my posts. Go back to SAT Reading Comprehension then maybe we can talk.

-I never once referred to Lavin as some master force. The comparison in this thread were to players giving reasonable effort forget wins and losses. That freshman team under Dunlap gave it their all 80 percent of the time with 5-6 players regularly as a rotation. There were blowouts but there were also some hard fought games and upsets that this group with more players and depth could only dream of.  This is a group that played A&M, Arizona, and Duke very tough. They even managed to knock off Notre Dame, UCLA, West Virginia, and Cinci as yes ALL freshman. And to further take you down memory lane Stith was barely in rotation first semester AND he left the team second semester making it even harder for them.

As for this year's team I never said the returnees spectacular, I said the team as a whole collectively has not showed enough effort even in losses with the exception of Felix, Yakwe, and Sima who is playing injured. Mussini had his moments as did Amar but in general it was more than being overmatched by talent it was also being overmatched by effort. And yes I did not expect a great season but I damn well thought we could knock off Incarnate, NJIT, and Fordham (another team that D'angelos team beat with 5 yes 5 players) and not get absolutely DESTROYED by a cupcake.  Do you realize how hard it is to play a game with no subs and still win as FRESHMAN, that is is called heart and effort.

And as an aside even though the point here is not Steve Lavin what you just said is pretty disgusting. Lav taking personal credit for everything you could not be more wrong. He was a player's coach and went out of his way to help his players and many former players even from UCLA still communicate with him regularly. And yes blame was taken by him as he always tried to see optimism in defeat. And as some would argue was even OVERPROTECTIVE at times of his players like Sheed so you could not be more wrong there.

Once again: you are comparing Lavin's first class, which he had 15 (FIFTEEN) months to recruit with Mullin's first class which he had 3 (THREE!) months to recruit.  That is a completely unfair comparison. 

And yes, that first year for D'lo/Moe/Dom/etc DID overachieve.  Because Mike Dunlap was their coach.  But again, you are comparing a class in which Mullin had 3 months to recruit with a class that Lavin had 15 months to recruit.  If you know anything about how recruiting works and what players are available in April, 3 months before they need to be on campus, you would know how difficult it is to find any players worth their salt in 3 months.

Also, don't give me that not all the players from that #3 ranked recruiting class didn't make it to school.  All but one of them did, and the one who didn't, Norvel Pelle, is playing Kuzeshitfdfjkdfjkldfstan.

Question for you: when the season was not in session (meaning spring/summer/fall before official practices started), how often was Steve Lavin on campus??  And be honest!!

Quote from: TONYD3 on March 01, 2016, 03:58:22 PM

Lavin was fired. The bar has to be better then Lavin.

Are we going to give Mullin 5 years to see if he can leap over that one post season win bar Lavin set or is there a different metric.

Ideally, Mullin is given an unlimited amount of time to prove better than Hollywood and it's his job until he doesn't want it any more. 

There's a different metric.  We haven't won a single Ncaa tournament game in a season beginning this century and it's 2016.  The 40% Ncaa tournament appearances Lavin achieved is the bar it would be nice if Chris could hurdle over. More than that would be groundbreaking gravy.

Quote from: friendofjohnnie on March 01, 2016, 09:28:35 AM

Quote from: Foad on March 01, 2016, 08:21:35 AM

Quote from: friendofjohnnie on February 29, 2016, 11:48:12 PM

And since when did Stith see serious minutes? And Nuri was gone very soon. By the 6 that played I meant Dee, Phil, Dom, Gift, Moe, and Amir which was not as massive as they would have been full class intact intact.  Get your facts straight.

Yeah, I'll get facts straight. First let me refresh your memory.

You said in trashing Mullin and lauding Lavin - which is the sole myopic point you make - that Mullin's team shows "no effort" and play "dumb basketball." You did this in the context of a discussion of Lavin's third year with his first recruiting class and specifically the game in which they got blown out in the post season by a team from the NEC. Which pathetic performance you (a) participated in and (b) have an excuse for, having studied at the feet of the master excuse maker Steve Lavin, who has spent his professional career taking personal credit for each of his team's victories while disavowing blame for every defeat.

So then I chimes in to point out that in his first year with that highly regarded recruiting class Lavin won 13 games and got the shit kicked out of himself on a regular basis. I made that comparison because this is Mullin's first year with this hastily thrown together recruiting class and comparing Lavin's fourth year with Mullin's first year is pointless and besides which betrays your clear bias.

Then you brilliantly pointed out that those first year guys were all freshmen, which of course they were, that was the point I was making. Your underlying point seems to be that Mullin has the advantage of having great returnees like Felix Balamou and Amir Alibleigiwtch and Chris Jones to help him along while poor Steve Lavin did not, this despite the fact that Mullin's returnees were evidently so atrocious at playing basketball that they rarely saw the floor in their careers prior to this year, this despite the fact that as you point out yourself there were times when Lavin - having given up recruiting early in his tenure in favor of pasta and meatballs - often barely had enough players to field a team.

And now, when it turns out that you were wrong, that they were not all freshmen, you tell me I should get my facts straight because Malik Stith didn't play a lot of minutes. My suggestion to you would be that since you were the one who was wrong - I didn't say anything about anyone's minutes - you get your facts straight, and your logic straight, and while you're at it brush up on your rhetoric, because that's pretty shoddy as well.

Which brings us to the right now, when I tell you to go home and get your shine box.

Thats a lot of assumptions and putting words in somones mouth. You really have no idea what I was talking about and completely misread or have been misreading my posts. Go back to SAT Reading Comprehension then maybe we can talk.

-I never once referred to Lavin as some master force. The comparison in this thread were to players giving reasonable effort forget wins and losses. That freshman team under Dunlap gave it their all 80 percent of the time with 5-6 players regularly as a rotation. There were blowouts but there were also some hard fought games and upsets that this group with more players and depth could only dream of.  This is a group that played A&M, Arizona, and Duke very tough. They even managed to knock off Notre Dame, UCLA, West Virginia, and Cinci as yes ALL freshman. And to further take you down memory lane Stith was barely in rotation first semester AND he left the team second semester making it even harder for them.

As for this year's team I never said the returnees spectacular, I said the team as a whole collectively has not showed enough effort even in losses with the exception of Felix, Yakwe, and Sima who is playing injured. Mussini had his moments as did Amar but in general it was more than being overmatched by talent it was also being overmatched by effort. And yes I did not expect a great season but I damn well thought we could knock off Incarnate, NJIT, and Fordham (another team that D'angelos team beat with 5 yes 5 players) and not get absolutely DESTROYED by a cupcake.  Do you realize how hard it is to play a game with no subs and still win as FRESHMAN, that is is called heart and effort.

And as an aside even though the point here is not Steve Lavin what you just said is pretty disgusting. Lav taking personal credit for everything you could not be more wrong. He was a player's coach and went out of his way to help his players and many former players even from UCLA still communicate with him regularly. And yes blame was taken by him as he always tried to see optimism in defeat. And as some would argue was even OVERPROTECTIVE at times of his players like Sheed so you could not be more wrong there.

Once again: you are comparing Lavin's first class, which he had 15 (FIFTEEN) months to recruit with Mullin's first class which he had 3 (THREE!) months to recruit.  That is a completely unfair comparison. 

And yes, that first year for D'lo/Moe/Dom/etc DID overachieve.  Because Mike Dunlap was their coach.  But again, you are comparing a class in which Mullin had 3 months to recruit with a class that Lavin had 15 months to recruit.  If you know anything about how recruiting works and what players are available in April, 3 months before they need to be on campus, you would know how difficult it is to find any players worth their salt in 3 months.

Also, don't give me that not all the players from that #3 ranked recruiting class didn't make it to school.  All but one of them did, and the one who didn't, Norvel Pelle, is playing Kuzeshitfdfjkdfjkldfstan.

Question for you: when the season was not in session (meaning spring/summer/fall before official practices started), how often was Steve Lavin on campus??  And be honest!!

So are you saying that you need to only  be good prospects of a fractured  highly ranked class to show effort during a season? And its more than Norvel. Jakarr did not get here until the following season and Amir got here second semester.

foad-how did you get the $515 a day? You mean per hour? Ha

Once again  another one who is making stuff up!! I am not looking to rehash Malik Stith or Steve Lavin here. Steve Lavin does not even apply because he did not even coach that freshman team. The comparison is players and effort they have shown their freshman season. It was Foad that keeps using this as an anti-Lavin bash and is arguing with me about Stith. I am keeping it at players and effort.

And my entire point is to be CRYSTAL CLEAR is that D'angelos team freshman year showed way more effort with less players than this years team except Yakwe and Sima, that is the EXTENT of it!  And the reason why this is important is because the proper gauge for freshman and the team going forward. Do not want to see these bad habits when they have a real team next year.

So please stop distorting my words.

Yet every one your posts is about Lavin and his players in a thread about the Creighton game, makes sense. 

Quote from: Poison on March 01, 2016, 03:53:30 PM

Quote from: friendofjohnnie on February 29, 2016, 11:48:12 PM

I love how some can pretend they actually knew the attitudes and personalities of some of the last team that came through here. Rightly or wrongly that NIT team was recruited as your classic boom or bust team. Unfortunately it  did not work out that season. With the personalities on that team and close friendships I have formed with several of the players I can honestly tell you that the best option for them was to not take the court that game. I dont see it acting so much of hubris by rejecting the bid as I do to getting a jump start to the next season and end it knowing you were missing something. And the quest begins after the Selection Sunday to achieve that goal with its constantly motivating you. That is what the team, needed not a meaningless NIT game.

And to say Dom is the only one that worked hard is disgusting and frankly I am insulted. You must have not watched most of the games. Yes sometimes Karr slacked off but hardly ever did Dee, Phil, and Jamal. Especially the last couple years. Even Sheed in games busted his ass and took several charges.

The only ones this season who consistently have done that are Yakwe, Fellix,  and to an extent Sima although he is limited with injury.  Mussini was inconsistent.

And since when did Stith see serious minutes? And Nuri was gone very soon. By the 6 that played I meant Dee, Phil, Dom, Gift, Moe, and Amir which was not as massive as they would have been full class intact intact.  Get your facts straight.

The facts are that Lavin's haul was a 10 man class ranked 3rd in the nation. But you don't get credit for the #3 ranked class in the nation if that class doesn't suit up and play. And it didn't. The guys who played, played well, overall. Not as well as their press clippings would indicate, but they played well. The team had a winning record for 3/4 seasons.

That said, is this the bar that you want for St.John's? To be better than Norm Roberts? Lavin wasn't all bad, but I think we can put this bed by agreeing that he finished up his 5 years earning a C+/B-

Agreed?

Yea, not all of them made it so it really was not the top 3 class that did not live up to expectations that many have said. NBA/MLB departures, and DQs all must be considered.  The core that stayed of Dom , Dee,  Phil were good players. My main argument has just been that at the same age as these guys now I saw more effort despite the tough odds and at least we got some good upsets. Playing 5-6 men deep every night is alot to ask of freshman and they had battle that I have not seen of any freshman this year except Yakwe. My hope is the others next season pick it up and show that effort.

As for grades your assessment overall is not far off although I probably would have given him a B. I give him that for the fact that he made us relevant again and each season  we had some excitement and were competitive with NCAA  aspirations (except freshman when DQs happened)  even though they did not always pan out.

And not to rehash stuff but I think Lavin's  fall was putting too much into Briscoe and Co without a backup plan. That being said if Briscoe came we arent having this discussion today.

You can't compare Mussini, Ellison, Sima and Yakwe to Lavin's second class. Compare it to
His first class. Fair is fair. That would be Dwayne Polee and not the top 25 guard who bolted for Kentucky.

Let's see how Mullin's first class performs. If you think this is his first class, you are well within your right to, but Lavin didn't have 3 months to put it together. If you want to criticize Mullin's coaching decisions, his play calling, you can, and we all can a little, but he has a roster full of terrible players. Guys that wouldn't get off the bench at Fordham.