Slice

still not good and a PR disaster. doesn't shine the school in the right light.

A pr disaster? Come on that's not true. An assistant coach who was here for a year and now is leaving is not a pr disaster. Coaches get fired or leave all the time. We will move on and find another coach. Slice wasn't happy with his role and now he's leaving and will be replaced. It's unfortunate it didn't work out but what's going on at Baylor is a pr disaster, this is far from it.

And let's be clear Jay Wright wasn't always "Jay Wright."  In addition to failing to make the NCAA's his first 3 years at Nova there was a stretch from mid 2010-2011 thru 2011-2012 where Villanova was terrible.

In mid 2010-11 season Villanova was 9-5 in the BE.  They proceeded to lose the last 4 league games and then the BE Tourney game to go 0-5 over their last 5 league games as well as lose the first round NCAA game.  Then they proceeded to go 5-13 in the BE the next season and lose their only BE Tourney game.  That means over a stretch of 24 consecutive BE opponents Villanova went 5-19!!!!

Some of you guys would have run Jay out of town with those numbers not to mention he had serious talent like Pena, Fisher and Waayns.

Quote from: mjmaherjr on June 08, 2016, 09:55:38 PM

Quote from: prjohnnies on June 08, 2016, 09:52:32 PM

You are calling the kids we have brought in second/third tier players. There are a handful who are either lock or borderline top 50. I don't consider that second tier. I thought you were pleased with the recruiting to date and roster next season. I get you don't like Matt A and that you were a Slice fan (so am I), but I am happy with the program's direction even with him leaving.

Pretty sure most of the kids Slice landed at Pitt, especially from the NYC area, were not the likes (out of HS) as a Rawle or Thon. We get this going in a year or two and we will have a chance at landing the occasional MCD's kid. Programs are built on the type of kids we are getting.

Quote from: Marco Baldi on June 08, 2016, 09:14:09 PM

Quote from: prjohnnies on June 08, 2016, 09:06:53 PM

And there it is.

Shocked Baldi you are turning on our young kids already.  Talent at the freshman and soph level is as good as it has been since Lavin's second year.

How did I turn on the young players?

Quote from: Marco Baldi on June 08, 2016, 09:13:12 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on June 08, 2016, 08:56:52 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on June 08, 2016, 08:36:38 PM

Slice was brought in to recruit  top players, the  head coach is supposed to be the closer. We couldn't close on the top guys, so we get maybe 2nd, 3rd, 4thtier players along with some local talent.  All well and fine if we had a proven staff with some in game coaching under their belts. That philosophy works if you have a Jay Wright on the bench, which we don't. IMO, we take a huge step back losing Our home run hitter on the recruiting trail.

Can the staff coach up the transfers, jucos and lower tier talent to get us where we want to be? Hope so.

Lower tier talent?  Ponds and Lovett are legit consensus top 50/40 guards, Yakwe was a top 50 (he was ranked 100 for class of 2016 but was set for a HUGE jump after he won MVP at Peach Jam but then reclassified so it was too late to rank him for 2015).  Ahmed was arguably the top JUCO player in the country.

If Slice was brought here to land Brandon Ingram or Jamaal Murray or Rawle Alkins that's fine.  But be clear almost no one on a consistent basis in the BE lands that talent including Villanova.  You're essentially arguing Slice was brought here to bring in Kentucky or Duke type recruits when no one in the BE lands that type of class to begin with.  If SJU needs that type of talent to win consistently in the BE (in other words beat people like Wojo, Willard, Letaio, McDermott, Mack etc) then Mullin should have NEVER been hired.

I am not suggesting that Slice could not have been valuable, but recruiting is relative.  And relative to everyone else in the BE SJU is doing better than just about all of them.

Crying out loud stop acting SJU landed MAAC talent.  Go look at the rating of their backcourt, name me another BE backcourt with an average recruiting ranking better than Ponds and Lovett?

Who did we beat out for Lovett and Ponds?

And actually Ahmed originally was to go to IONA, so Ya St John's did land MAAC talent. Some are saying he will be the best player on the team

I think Baldi was more or less considering the mcdonalds kids the 1st tier

What, so now they have to beat out Kansas and Kentucky for a kid to be good?

OK other than Villa nova who in the BE is beating out those schools for kids and furthermore how many times does Nova beat those schools out for kids?

This is nonsense..

Here is my point, if SJU fired Lavin to hire a coach who can't beat Letaio, Wojo, Mack, Willard, JTIII, Holtmann etc wiithout top 25 kids at each position then he SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN HIRED TO BEGIN WITH!!!

  When I go out to eat I have my top tier choices. Il Mulino in roslyn,Blackstones,

Quote from: mjmaherjr on June 08, 2016, 09:55:38 PM

Quote from: prjohnnies on June 08, 2016, 09:52:32 PM

You are calling the kids we have brought in second/third tier players. There are a handful who are either lock or borderline top 50. I don't consider that second tier. I thought you were pleased with the recruiting to date and roster next season. I get you don't like Matt A and that you were a Slice fan (so am I), but I am happy with the program's direction even with him leaving.

Pretty sure most of the kids Slice landed at Pitt, especially from the NYC area, were not the likes (out of HS) as a Rawle or Thon. We get this going in a year or two and we will have a chance at landing the occasional MCD's kid. Programs are built on the type of kids we are getting.

Quote from: Marco Baldi on June 08, 2016, 09:14:09 PM

Quote from: prjohnnies on June 08, 2016, 09:06:53 PM

And there it is.

Shocked Baldi you are turning on our young kids already.  Talent at the freshman and soph level is as good as it has been since Lavin's second year.

How did I turn on the young players?

Quote from: Marco Baldi on June 08, 2016, 09:13:12 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on June 08, 2016, 08:56:52 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on June 08, 2016, 08:36:38 PM

Slice was brought in to recruit  top players, the  head coach is supposed to be the closer. We couldn't close on the top guys, so we get maybe 2nd, 3rd, 4thtier players along with some local talent.  All well and fine if we had a proven staff with some in game coaching under their belts. That philosophy works if you have a Jay Wright on the bench, which we don't. IMO, we take a huge step back losing Our home run hitter on the recruiting trail.

Can the staff coach up the transfers, jucos and lower tier talent to get us where we want to be? Hope so.

Lower tier talent?  Ponds and Lovett are legit consensus top 50/40 guards, Yakwe was a top 50 (he was ranked 100 for class of 2016 but was set for a HUGE jump after he won MVP at Peach Jam but then reclassified so it was too late to rank him for 2015).  Ahmed was arguably the top JUCO player in the country.

If Slice was brought here to land Brandon Ingram or Jamaal Murray or Rawle Alkins that's fine.  But be clear almost no one on a consistent basis in the BE lands that talent including Villanova.  You're essentially arguing Slice was brought here to bring in Kentucky or Duke type recruits when no one in the BE lands that type of class to begin with.  If SJU needs that type of talent to win consistently in the BE (in other words beat people like Wojo, Willard, Letaio, McDermott, Mack etc) then Mullin should have NEVER been hired.

I am not suggesting that Slice could not have been valuable, but recruiting is relative.  And relative to everyone else in the BE SJU is doing better than just about all of them.

Crying out loud stop acting SJU landed MAAC talent.  Go look at the rating of their backcourt, name me another BE backcourt with an average recruiting ranking better than Ponds and Lovett?

Who did we beat out for Lovett and Ponds?

And actually Ahmed originally was to go to IONA, so Ya St John's did land MAAC talent. Some are saying he will be the best player on the team

I think Baldi was more or less considering the mcdonalds kids the 1st tier

What, so now they have to beat out Kansas and Kentucky for a kid to be good?

OK other than Villa nova who in the BE is beating out those schools for kids and furthermore how many times does Nova beat those schools out for kids?

This is nonsense..

Here is my point, if SJU fired Lavin to hire a coach who can't beat Letaio, Wojo, Mack, Willard, JTIII, Holtmann etc wiithout top 25 kids at each position then he SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN HIRED TO BEGIN WITH!!!

As to your first point. When I go to dinner in the city I have my top tier restaurants. Gotham Bar and Grill,Gramercy Tavern,Asiate,Nobu,Parkside Tavern,Pio Pio.   Then I have my 2nd tier  Aquavit,Keens,NoMad,Porter House Then I have my 3rd tier Esperanto,Oceana,Osteria Morini etc.

Doesn't mean I don't like 2nd and 3rd tier and I dine more at those anyway when I'm in the city


I agree with your 2nd point. When we pay 2 mill a year for a coach we are expected to beat all those other coaches regardless of the recruit. Don't care if it doesn't happen this year but down the road we should be beating them

And forget about the restaurants in the middle. I started naming my favorites on long island but forgot most people here don't live near me so I went with my city restaurants and queens

Not to mention the fact that SJU just fired a coach who took a roster full of NON top 50-100 kids let alone top 25 kids to an NCAA bid and a 12-6 record in his first year in a much more difficult conference.  But they hired a guy to replace him who can't win unless he has top 25 kids.

Not to mention the fact that SJU just fired a coach who took a roster full of NON top 50-100 kids let alone top 25 kids to an NCAA bid and a 12-6 record in his first year in a much more difficult conference.  But they hired a guy to replace him who can't win unless he has top 25 kids.

I don't want to speak for Baldi but I don't think that's what he is saying. I think more or less what he is saying is he isn't confident we will get to that level without top kids because of maybe lack of confidence in x and o's and to use your example Lavin had dunlap and Mullin doesn't

Read, & re-read all of this thread.


As far as xs & os, are some on here unsure about:
- for CM and the staff's ability to teach how to run his system? I recall Chris stating over the course of a game, it is more being able to play in a flow rather than set play after set play. Set plays were to be more situational and less frequent.
- substitution patterns? Of course, the inexperienced and light on talent roster last season did not adequately show Chris' knack for making sound substitutions at the right time. Go deep 8 strong and substitutions get a bit easier.
- in bounds plays, defensive strategy, motivating players to play their hardest?


These are not rhetorical questions, but rather help clarify some areas for me to understand the xs & os the board sees as a measuring stick.


Also  - when I kept reading Tim Welsh's name being thrown around, I did not see anything mentioned regarding his sobriety. Is Welsh acknowledged to have been sober since his entry into a program? If not, is he someone we'd want around?   

X's and O's are meaningless if you have no talent. What good is a beautiful back door cut if the player receiving the ball is too slow to finish before the defense has time to recover? I think these guys knew what they were doing. They improved, but they were terrible, and even thought the improvement was noticeable, even with the improvement they were still terrible.

I expect a big improvement next season, and as many as 4 new starters who will log significant minutes. With a full roster and a capable player at every position, we'll have a clear picture of what St.Jean can do, what our new staff is all about and what kind of coach Mullin can be for St.John's.

My guess with Barry is that Matt used up scholarships on players, and there wasn't much left for him to work with. Personally, I like what Matt is doing. Going after quality 3/4 star recruits and transfers. It's great that Barry talked to Maker and Ferguson, but they aren't coming because they were never coming. Most top 20 local kids, be in NY or NJ want Duke, NC, UCLA, Zona etc. We have to first establish our program again. We wouldn't turn down a McDonald's AA, but it would be a freshman, and most of them require a lot of work. I'd like that McD's kid to be the cherry on the top of a solid class. We've tried this before. Darius Miles, Syvan Landesberg, Lance Stephenson, Isaiah Briscoe, Rawlie Alkins and the list goes on and on. Program changers here? No. Pros? Some are. Some aren't.

Give me 3/4 years of Ponds instead Alkins any day.

X's and O's are meaningless if you have no talent. What good is a beautiful back door cut if the player receiving the ball is too slow to finish before the defense has time to recover? I think these guys knew what they were doing. They improved, but they were terrible, and even thought the improvement was noticeable, even with the improvement they were still terrible.

I expect a big improvement next season, and as many as 4 new starters who will log significant minutes. With a full roster and a capable player at every position, we'll have a clear picture of what St.Jean can do, what our new staff is all about and what kind of coach Mullin can be for St.John's.

My guess with Barry is that Matt used up scholarships on players, and there wasn't much left for him to work with. Personally, I like what Matt is doing. Going after quality 3/4 star recruits and transfers. It's great that Barry talked to Maker and Ferguson, but they aren't coming because they were never coming. Most top 20 local kids, be in NY or NJ want Duke, NC, UCLA, Zona etc. We have to first establish our program again. We wouldn't turn down a McDonald's AA, but it would be a freshman, and most of them require a lot of work. I'd like that McD's kid to be the cherry on the top of a solid class. We've tried this before. Darius Miles, Syvan Landesberg, Lance Stephenson, Isaiah Briscoe, Rawlie Alkins and the list goes on and on. Program changers here? No. Pros? Some are. Some aren't.

Give me 3/4 years of Ponds instead Alkins any day.

+1000

Not to mention the fact that SJU just fired a coach who took a roster full of NON top 50-100 kids let alone top 25 kids to an NCAA bid and a 12-6 record in his first year in a much more difficult conference.  But they hired a guy to replace him who can't win unless he has top 25 kids.

Sounds like you're agreeing with me

Lost in this discussion of recruiting versus X and Os is the thing the staff sells hardest as their edge - the ability to develop talent through pro-level skill work.  Mullin has to be here for a couple years, at least, to know if that is really true.  If this staff can continue to recruit high character kids with upside (and I believe they will), and relentlessly work with them to develop specific skills, we will be just fine.  I actually love that plan.

Lost in this discussion of recruiting versus X and Os is the thing the staff sells hardest as their edge - the ability to develop talent through pro-level skill work.  Mullin has to be here for a couple years, at least, to know if that is really true.  If this staff can continue to recruit high character kids with upside (and I believe they will), and relentlessly work with them to develop specific skills, we will be just fine.  I actually love that plan.

+1

TThen I have my 3rd tier Esperanto,Oceana,Osteria Morini etc.

Oceana is 3rd tier for you.. ?   you are a SNOB

Also  - when I kept reading Tim Welsh's name being thrown around, I did not see anything mentioned regarding his sobriety. Is Welsh acknowledged to have been sober since his entry into a program? If not, is he someone we'd want around?   

A DWI means you are alcoholic..?

1) Barry Rohrrsen wasn't doing anything to help us land any big fish this year.  Matt pulled all he recruiting weight and landed some really good kids.  It seems to me like Barry Rohrrsen and his bloated assistant coach salary are the problem.  I had seen a lot of people blaming Abdelmassih but he's been earning his paycheck.  Rohrssen seems to have been nothing more than a very expensive malcontent and we don't need that moving forward.

2) Mike Dunlap is 22-40 at Loyola.  So much for coaching em up if he doesn't land talent.

3) I don't know enough about Richmond to know whether his promotion is good or not.  I'd prefer another experienced recruiter type as Dave has mentioned.  Lots of guys out there that can fit the bill.  Talent wins ball games.

Reading between the lines of the Zac article...twelve months ago CM started assembling a staff. He knew he needed recruiters and he needed X and O guys. Matt A, an SJU grad who knew Chris, was an obvious choice for recruiting. St Jean, more of an unknown, might have been brought in due to CM's relationship with his father, or maybe he interviewed really well from an X and O perspective. CM looked at Slice as one who were be given preference to do both, why else bring him in?

As time went by, St Jean earned more of CM's trust as an X and O; Matt earned more of CM's trust as a recruiter. As an older guy, Slice said to himself, "what am I doing here playing second fiddle in recruiting and strategy"? Slice is taking his bruised ego down the road, possibly to more familiar pastures. Much like the veteran ballplayer being replaced by the younger prospect.

I always preferred a more experienced X and O guy. Some one with in game coaching experience. Dunlap would be perfect, Tim Welsh, Pete Gillen have been mentioned. I also threw Mark Jackson out there. Just give us someone who can work strategy, especially teach defense, and has college coaching experience.

A few things here...

If Coach Mullin knew Matt A before interviewing him for a job, it was in passing at best.

Coach Mullin would not have taken this job without having Barry on board.

All of that said, I don't have any idea what happened with the staff over the course of the year.

This situation is certainly not the end of the world but it doesn't make SJU look good at all...

The school owes Barry close to $2mm and he is not just going walk away from that...

Quote from: Marillac on June 08, 2016, 01:53:28 AM

Why would Richmond want be the third assistant? He's got a sweet gig as the special assistant.

Could justify paying him more as associate head coach.

Yes, but it doesn't make sense for either side.  His biggest benefit for us is "Hey look recruits it's perennial All-Star and NBA hall of famer, Mitch Richmond."  He can do that eating pizza with the team or as an associate head coach.  Do we really need two guys who played college in the 80's with no coaching experience? For him, he's got more than enough money and he still does appearances and talks for 10k each.  He's got a sweet gig with not having to recruit or be physically present 100% of the time, but still being around basketball and being part of a team.

Hamilton is the one who deserves to be bumped up.  He has volunteered for at least two years now and his qualifications are just as good as Mitch's even if he wasn't as good in the NBA.

SJU is best off going with an established x's and o's guy and developer of talent. Seriously, raid the Xavier staff. They develop every talent they touch and always play hard and do well in March.

It is an odd situation.  If we win games, no one will care.  Seton Hall last year is a perfect example.   

Quote from: braintrust on June 08, 2016, 06:13:55 PM

Reading between the lines of the Zac article...twelve months ago CM started assembling a staff. He knew he needed recruiters and he needed X and O guys. Matt A, an SJU grad who knew Chris, was an obvious choice for recruiting. St Jean, more of an unknown, might have been brought in due to CM's relationship with his father, or maybe he interviewed really well from an X and O perspective. CM looked at Slice as one who were be given preference to do both, why else bring him in?

As time went by, St Jean earned more of CM's trust as an X and O; Matt earned more of CM's trust as a recruiter. As an older guy, Slice said to himself, "what am I doing here playing second fiddle in recruiting and strategy"? Slice is taking his bruised ego down the road, possibly to more familiar pastures. Much like the veteran ballplayer being replaced by the younger prospect.

I always preferred a more experienced X and O guy. Some one with in game coaching experience. Dunlap would be perfect, Tim Welsh, Pete Gillen have been mentioned. I also threw Mark Jackson out there. Just give us someone who can work strategy, especially teach defense, and has college coaching experience.

A few things here...

If Coach Mullin knew Matt A before interviewing him for a job, it was in passing at best.

Coach Mullin would not have taken this job without having Barry on board.

All of that said, I don't have any idea what happened with the staff over the course of the year.

This situation is certainly not the end of the world but it doesn't make SJU look good at all...

The school owes Barry close to $2mm and he is not just going walk away from that...

Quote from: Dave on June 08, 2016, 08:58:56 AM

Quote from: Marillac on June 08, 2016, 01:53:28 AM

Why would Richmond want be the third assistant? He's got a sweet gig as the special assistant.

Could justify paying him more as associate head coach.

Yes, but it doesn't make sense for either side.  His biggest benefit for us is "Hey look recruits it's perennial All-Star and NBA hall of famer, Mitch Richmond."  He can do that eating pizza with the team or as an associate head coach.  Do we really need two guys who played college in the 80's with no coaching experience? For him, he's got more than enough money and he still does appearances and talks for 10k each.  He's got a sweet gig with not having to recruit or be physically present 100% of the time, but still being around basketball and being part of a team.

Hamilton is the one who deserves to be bumped up.  He has volunteered for at least two years now and his qualifications are just as good as Mitch's even if he wasn't as good in the NBA.

SJU is best off going with an established x's and o's guy and developer of talent. Seriously, raid the Xavier staff. They develop every talent they touch and always play hard and do well in March.

Zendon had one of the lowest basketball IQs I've ever seen. He had less than 20 assists in 4 years, and he was double teamed constantly. The concern, and it's a fair concern is that we have all of these former ballers, and no one on the staff with significant in game coaching experience.

For all we know, Richmond is another Larry Bird, but it's an unknown, and that's what worries people. All we can see is that he's a drawing card, simply because of his playing days. Is that going to draw 16-18 year old recruits? We can all put last year behind us, and chalk it up to a talentless roster, but we are not going into next season with a well rounded coaching staff. That much we can all see.

Quote from: Johnnystar on June 08, 2016, 10:09:51 PM

still not good and a PR disaster. doesn't shine the school in the right light.

A pr disaster? Come on that's not true. An assistant coach who was here for a year and now is leaving is not a pr disaster. Coaches get fired or leave all the time. We will move on and find another coach. Slice wasn't happy with his role and now he's leaving and will be replaced. It's unfortunate it didn't work out but what's going on at Baylor is a pr disaster, this is far from it.

Agree...I think Slice looks bad...I don't think that there are too many D1 major programs for which Slice would have significant in-game responsibilities...He certainly didn't appear to have such responsibilities at Pitt or Kentucky...I assume he thought this might be an opportunity to get his name linked to in game coaching as a stepping stone to another HC position.

When that didn't happen...he decided to leave

It says something about his coaching skills that Mullin, who asked him to leave Kentucky, did not see enough to warrant delegating these responsibilities to him. Then again, I am sure Mullin had to make some promises to St. Jean as well. After all, he didn't need a job at SJU unless it was going to advance his skills

Reading between the lines of the Zac article...twelve months ago CM started assembling a staff. He knew he needed recruiters and he needed X and O guys. Matt A, an SJU grad who knew Chris, was an obvious choice for recruiting. St Jean, more of an unknown, might have been brought in due to CM's relationship with his father, or maybe he interviewed really well from an X and O perspective. CM looked at Slice as one who were be given preference to do both, why else bring him in?

As time went by, St Jean earned more of CM's trust as an X and O; Matt earned more of CM's trust as a recruiter. As an older guy, Slice said to himself, "what am I doing here playing second fiddle in recruiting and strategy"? Slice is taking his bruised ego down the road, possibly to more familiar pastures. Much like the veteran ballplayer being replaced by the younger prospect.

I always preferred a more experienced X and O guy. Some one with in game coaching experience. Dunlap would be perfect, Tim Welsh, Pete Gillen have been mentioned. I also threw Mark Jackson out there. Just give us someone who can work strategy, especially teach defense, and has college coaching experience.

How did St Jean "earn" CM's trust.  We were 1-17 in conference.  There isn't a poster on this board who could have done worse.  Let's get an x and o guy here pronto.