The Reality of Rebuilding

Not that I should have to explain how the season's poor record isn't really on Mullin and the staff, but it appears that somebody has to here. The fact that seems to go unremembered here is this is a total rebuild and many coaches that have been in much better positions have struggled in their first seasons at a new school just to turn them around later. Here's a look at how some of today's most successful and consistent programs fared in their first season with their current head coach.

Important to keep in mind here that only Tom Crean really inherited a roster as bad as the one our current staff did. Every other coach entered tough, but not nearly as bad of situations as Mullin and Co.

Tom Crean: 6-25 in season 1, 10-21 in season 2, 12-20 in season 3.
Since: Has made the tournament 4 of the last 5 years, 3 of those years as a 4 seed or better

Tony Bennett: 15-16 in his first season at UVA (lost 10 of last 11)
Since: Tournament 4 of last 5 years, 3 straight years of being 2 seed or better, a couple ACC regular season titles

Lon Kruger: 15-16 in his first season at Oklahoma
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances, 3 straight as a 5 seed or better

Gregg Marshall: 11-20 in first season at Wichita
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances including an undefeated regular season

Matt Painter: 9-19 in first season at Purdue followed by 6 straight NCAA appearances
Since: Led Purdue to 6 straight tourney appearances

Larry Krystkowiak: 6-25 in first season at Utah
Since: 2 straight tourney appearances, consistent Pac 12 contender

Mick Cronin: 11-19 in first season at Cinci
Since: This year will probably be his 6th straight tourney appearance


Now, this doesn't mean that Mullin and this staff are guaranteed to succeed but this should reinforce the fact that this season's failures have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this staff will finally be able to make this program a consistent winner again.

While some lament a perceived lack of improvement as the season went on, the fact is we competed with a few NCAA tournament teams towards the end of the season with one of the worst rosters in BE history.

This season sucked for sure, but we aren't the first team every to go through a season like this and it is not a death sentence by any stretch.

 

Again nothing that has happened or will happen will ever make me turn on Mullin and I don't think you can begin to judge him really until next year if not the year after. With that said I do think he could have handled some things better and maybe "played the part" a little more. I don't want to get into all the little things that have been complained about but I think Fun said it best in his recap in that it looked like "he was waiting around for good players to coach". Not sure that was the best course of action and it probably did open himself up to doubters.

Great post and good to put things in perspective. 

Not that I should have to explain how the season's poor record isn't really on Mullin and the staff, but it appears that somebody has to here. The fact that seems to go unremembered here is this is a total rebuild and many coaches that have been in much better positions have struggled in their first seasons at a new school just to turn them around later. Here's a look at how some of today's most successful and consistent programs fared in their first season with their current head coach.

Important to keep in mind here that only Tom Crean really inherited a roster as bad as the one our current staff did. Every other coach entered tough, but not nearly as bad of situations as Mullin and Co.

Tom Crean: 6-25 in season 1, 10-21 in season 2, 12-20 in season 3.
Since: Has made the tournament 4 of the last 5 years, 3 of those years as a 4 seed or better

Tony Bennett: 15-16 in his first season at UVA (lost 10 of last 11)
Since: Tournament 4 of last 5 years, 3 straight years of being 2 seed or better, a couple ACC regular season titles

Lon Kruger: 15-16 in his first season at Oklahoma
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances, 3 straight as a 5 seed or better

Gregg Marshall: 11-20 in first season at Wichita
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances including an undefeated regular season

Matt Painter: 9-19 in first season at Purdue followed by 6 straight NCAA appearances
Since: Led Purdue to 6 straight tourney appearances

Larry Krystkowiak: 6-25 in first season at Utah
Since: 2 straight tourney appearances, consistent Pac 12 contender

Mick Cronin: 11-19 in first season at Cinci
Since: This year will probably be his 6th straight tourney appearance


Now, this doesn't mean that Mullin and this staff are guaranteed to succeed but this should reinforce the fact that this season's failures have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this staff will finally be able to make this program a consistent winner again.

While some lament a perceived lack of improvement as the season went on, the fact is we competed with a few NCAA tournament teams towards the end of the season with one of the worst rosters in BE history.

This season sucked for sure, but we aren't the first team every to go through a season like this and it is not a death sentence by any stretch.

Willing to give Mullin and staff a pass this year and next but did any of the above coaches not have any coaching experience before they took over a major D-1 conference team?

Quote from: goredmen on March 10, 2016, 02:26:32 PM

Not that I should have to explain how the season's poor record isn't really on Mullin and the staff, but it appears that somebody has to here. The fact that seems to go unremembered here is this is a total rebuild and many coaches that have been in much better positions have struggled in their first seasons at a new school just to turn them around later. Here's a look at how some of today's most successful and consistent programs fared in their first season with their current head coach.

Important to keep in mind here that only Tom Crean really inherited a roster as bad as the one our current staff did. Every other coach entered tough, but not nearly as bad of situations as Mullin and Co.

Tom Crean: 6-25 in season 1, 10-21 in season 2, 12-20 in season 3.
Since: Has made the tournament 4 of the last 5 years, 3 of those years as a 4 seed or better

Tony Bennett: 15-16 in his first season at UVA (lost 10 of last 11)
Since: Tournament 4 of last 5 years, 3 straight years of being 2 seed or better, a couple ACC regular season titles

Lon Kruger: 15-16 in his first season at Oklahoma
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances, 3 straight as a 5 seed or better

Gregg Marshall: 11-20 in first season at Wichita
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances including an undefeated regular season

Matt Painter: 9-19 in first season at Purdue followed by 6 straight NCAA appearances
Since: Led Purdue to 6 straight tourney appearances

Larry Krystkowiak: 6-25 in first season at Utah
Since: 2 straight tourney appearances, consistent Pac 12 contender

Mick Cronin: 11-19 in first season at Cinci
Since: This year will probably be his 6th straight tourney appearance


Now, this doesn't mean that Mullin and this staff are guaranteed to succeed but this should reinforce the fact that this season's failures have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this staff will finally be able to make this program a consistent winner again.

While some lament a perceived lack of improvement as the season went on, the fact is we competed with a few NCAA tournament teams towards the end of the season with one of the worst rosters in BE history.

This season sucked for sure, but we aren't the first team every to go through a season like this and it is not a death sentence by any stretch.

Willing to give Mullin and staff a pass this year and next but did any of the above coaches not have any coaching experience before they took over a major D-1 conference team?

No they did not, which I think strengthens the argument I guess I'm trying to make. Even these proven and experienced coaches struggled with overmatched rosters in their first season at their schools

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on March 10, 2016, 06:48:37 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 10, 2016, 02:26:32 PM

Not that I should have to explain how the season's poor record isn't really on Mullin and the staff, but it appears that somebody has to here. The fact that seems to go unremembered here is this is a total rebuild and many coaches that have been in much better positions have struggled in their first seasons at a new school just to turn them around later. Here's a look at how some of today's most successful and consistent programs fared in their first season with their current head coach.

Important to keep in mind here that only Tom Crean really inherited a roster as bad as the one our current staff did. Every other coach entered tough, but not nearly as bad of situations as Mullin and Co.

Tom Crean: 6-25 in season 1, 10-21 in season 2, 12-20 in season 3.
Since: Has made the tournament 4 of the last 5 years, 3 of those years as a 4 seed or better

Tony Bennett: 15-16 in his first season at UVA (lost 10 of last 11)
Since: Tournament 4 of last 5 years, 3 straight years of being 2 seed or better, a couple ACC regular season titles

Lon Kruger: 15-16 in his first season at Oklahoma
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances, 3 straight as a 5 seed or better

Gregg Marshall: 11-20 in first season at Wichita
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances including an undefeated regular season

Matt Painter: 9-19 in first season at Purdue followed by 6 straight NCAA appearances
Since: Led Purdue to 6 straight tourney appearances

Larry Krystkowiak: 6-25 in first season at Utah
Since: 2 straight tourney appearances, consistent Pac 12 contender

Mick Cronin: 11-19 in first season at Cinci
Since: This year will probably be his 6th straight tourney appearance


Now, this doesn't mean that Mullin and this staff are guaranteed to succeed but this should reinforce the fact that this season's failures have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this staff will finally be able to make this program a consistent winner again.

While some lament a perceived lack of improvement as the season went on, the fact is we competed with a few NCAA tournament teams towards the end of the season with one of the worst rosters in BE history.

This season sucked for sure, but we aren't the first team every to go through a season like this and it is not a death sentence by any stretch.

Willing to give Mullin and staff a pass this year and next but did any of the above coaches not have any coaching experience before they took over a major D-1 conference team?

No they did not, which I think strengthens the argument I guess I'm trying to make. Even these proven and experienced coaches struggled with overmatched rosters in their first season at their schools

Or we are totally screwed with our lack of coaching experience

Quote from: goredmen on March 10, 2016, 06:52:36 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on March 10, 2016, 06:48:37 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 10, 2016, 02:26:32 PM

Not that I should have to explain how the season's poor record isn't really on Mullin and the staff, but it appears that somebody has to here. The fact that seems to go unremembered here is this is a total rebuild and many coaches that have been in much better positions have struggled in their first seasons at a new school just to turn them around later. Here's a look at how some of today's most successful and consistent programs fared in their first season with their current head coach.

Important to keep in mind here that only Tom Crean really inherited a roster as bad as the one our current staff did. Every other coach entered tough, but not nearly as bad of situations as Mullin and Co.

Tom Crean: 6-25 in season 1, 10-21 in season 2, 12-20 in season 3.
Since: Has made the tournament 4 of the last 5 years, 3 of those years as a 4 seed or better

Tony Bennett: 15-16 in his first season at UVA (lost 10 of last 11)
Since: Tournament 4 of last 5 years, 3 straight years of being 2 seed or better, a couple ACC regular season titles

Lon Kruger: 15-16 in his first season at Oklahoma
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances, 3 straight as a 5 seed or better

Gregg Marshall: 11-20 in first season at Wichita
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances including an undefeated regular season

Matt Painter: 9-19 in first season at Purdue followed by 6 straight NCAA appearances
Since: Led Purdue to 6 straight tourney appearances

Larry Krystkowiak: 6-25 in first season at Utah
Since: 2 straight tourney appearances, consistent Pac 12 contender

Mick Cronin: 11-19 in first season at Cinci
Since: This year will probably be his 6th straight tourney appearance


Now, this doesn't mean that Mullin and this staff are guaranteed to succeed but this should reinforce the fact that this season's failures have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this staff will finally be able to make this program a consistent winner again.

While some lament a perceived lack of improvement as the season went on, the fact is we competed with a few NCAA tournament teams towards the end of the season with one of the worst rosters in BE history.

This season sucked for sure, but we aren't the first team every to go through a season like this and it is not a death sentence by any stretch.

Willing to give Mullin and staff a pass this year and next but did any of the above coaches not have any coaching experience before they took over a major D-1 conference team?

No they did not, which I think strengthens the argument I guess I'm trying to make. Even these proven and experienced coaches struggled with overmatched rosters in their first season at their schools

Or we are totally screwed with our lack of coaching experience

Perhaps, but that has nothing to do with any of this

Great post.

Not that I should have to explain how the season's poor record isn't really on Mullin and the staff, but it appears that somebody has to here. The fact that seems to go unremembered here is this is a total rebuild and many coaches that have been in much better positions have struggled in their first seasons at a new school just to turn them around later. Here's a look at how some of today's most successful and consistent programs fared in their first season with their current head coach.

Important to keep in mind here that only Tom Crean really inherited a roster as bad as the one our current staff did. Every other coach entered tough, but not nearly as bad of situations as Mullin and Co.

Tom Crean: 6-25 in season 1, 10-21 in season 2, 12-20 in season 3.
Since: Has made the tournament 4 of the last 5 years, 3 of those years as a 4 seed or better

Tony Bennett: 15-16 in his first season at UVA (lost 10 of last 11)
Since: Tournament 4 of last 5 years, 3 straight years of being 2 seed or better, a couple ACC regular season titles

Lon Kruger: 15-16 in his first season at Oklahoma
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances, 3 straight as a 5 seed or better

Gregg Marshall: 11-20 in first season at Wichita
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances including an undefeated regular season

Matt Painter: 9-19 in first season at Purdue followed by 6 straight NCAA appearances
Since: Led Purdue to 6 straight tourney appearances

Larry Krystkowiak: 6-25 in first season at Utah
Since: 2 straight tourney appearances, consistent Pac 12 contender

Mick Cronin: 11-19 in first season at Cinci
Since: This year will probably be his 6th straight tourney appearance


Now, this doesn't mean that Mullin and this staff are guaranteed to succeed but this should reinforce the fact that this season's failures have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this staff will finally be able to make this program a consistent winner again.

While some lament a perceived lack of improvement as the season went on, the fact is we competed with a few NCAA tournament teams towards the end of the season with one of the worst rosters in BE history.

This season sucked for sure, but we aren't the first team every to go through a season like this and it is not a death sentence by any stretch.

Good post. I don't think any of these guys had a roster like we had this year with 3 returning bench players from last season. Anyone who is judging Mullin off this season is just way off base. Coach K and Tom Izzo don't win many more games then Mullin did with this roster and it was his first year. Whenever you start a new job there are going to be some kinks to workout no matter what industry. That coupled with how little talent we had this season makes sense. The talent will be much better and the staff will be more experienced and cohesive next season. Next year really kicks off the Mullin era for me.

The relation between great coaches and great players are always intertwined.  John Wooden didn't win championships with mediocre players, Phil Jackson didn't win NBA titles without Jordan and Kobe. 

Can't judge Mullin until you actually have some players who can play the game. 

I get you cannot hang it all on Mullin thats a fine argument, but still one must present all the facts.

Mullin technically had:
CO (was not about Mullins coaching style), Adonis (not about style and fight) , Sheed (made decision to skip finals when lav fired), Felix, Doughty, Lovett was about to come and yes i know he did not play but still,  Sampson (Lav stays he stays-committed w/o Briscoe), Amar, CJ, Yakwe was about to come-relationship was built, Mussini relationship was built

Mullin started fresh with:
Sima, Ron, Durand, Ellison, Williams, Owens

Once again just doing this to put it in perspective.

I get you cannot hang it all on Mullin thats a fine argument, but still one must present all the facts.

Mullin technically had:
CO (was not about Mullins coaching style), Adonis (not about style and fight) , Sheed (made decision to skip finals when lav fired), Felix, Doughty, Lovett was about to come and yes i know he did not play but still,  Sampson (Lav stays he stays-committed w/o Briscoe), Amar, CJ, Yakwe was about to come-relationship was built, Mussini relationship was built

Mullin started fresh with:
Sima, Ron, Durand, Ellison, Williams, Owens

Once again just doing this to put it in perspective.

Is this a joke?

This is no joke, the facts are the facts.

The only players Mullin started fresh with and had no relation with the prior staff are Sima, Ron, Durand, Williams, and Owens.

Everyone else was either here already or the relationship was already built and Mullin had to keep them. You can debate the merits of some players poor decisions in the aftermath, but the point is they were here when he took the job or close to it.

I get you cannot hang it all on Mullin thats a fine argument, but still one must present all the facts.

Mullin technically had:
CO (was not about Mullins coaching style), Adonis (not about style and fight) ,

what was it about then ?

I get you cannot hang it all on Mullin thats a fine argument, but still one must present all the facts.

Mullin technically had:
CO (was not about Mullins coaching style), Adonis (not about style and fight) , Sheed (made decision to skip finals when lav fired), Felix, Doughty, Lovett was about to come and yes i know he did not play but still,  Sampson (Lav stays he stays-committed w/o Briscoe), Amar, CJ, Yakwe was about to come-relationship was built, Mussini relationship was built

Mullin started fresh with:
Sima, Ron, Durand, Ellison, Williams, Owens

Once again just doing this to put it in perspective.

Let's assume you're roster assessment is accurate (I strongly disagree but let's explore the counter factual). That team would at best be in the NIT and likely would have had continued off the court issues that embarrass the program. A house cleaning was necessary. That's the perspective missing in your argument

I dont know why you would disagree what I presented is all factually true. Look at the existing team and recruiting cycle from last year pre-Mullin.  Sima, Ron, Durand, Ellison , Williams, and Owens were the only pure Mullin recruits. Everything else was there already or was in the process of being built.

And I understand your concept of the off-the court issues and limits to where they would go. Yes I do think NIT is good gauge for what that group would have brought.

The point of my post was not the merits of whether a house-cleaning was warranted or not. This thread focused on comparing how bad wins/loss wise of teams that were inherited by new coaches with a bare cupboard. I am just pointing out the cupboard was not as bare as people think it was whether you liked the players or recruits fit for our program or not. Talent wise and potential  wins/losses wise we were not exactly that empty. And  much of the people we have all been talking about as future contributors- Yakwe, Lovett, Mussini all had the relationship built already. The Euro pipeline was also technically established through Amar. 

I dont know why you would disagree what I presented is all factually true. Look at the existing teams and recruiting cycle from last year pre-Mullin.  Sima, Ron, Durand, Ellison , Williams, and Owens were the only pure Mullin recruits. Everything else was there already or was in the process of being built.

And I understand your concept of the off-the court issues and limits to where they would go. Yes I do think NIT is good gauge for what that group would have brought.

The point of my post was not the merits of whether a house-cleaning was warranted or not. This thread focused on comparing how bad wins/loss wise of teams that were inherited by new coaches with a bare cupboard. I am just pointing out the cupboard was not as bare as people think it was whether you liked the players or recruits fit for or program or not. Talent wise and potential  wins/losses wise we were not exactly that empty. And  much of the people we have all been talking about as future contributors- Yakwe, Lovett, Mussini all had the relationship built already. The Euro pipeline was also technically established through Amar. 

I wouldn't exactly call Amar the Euro pipeline because while yes we were recruiting Mussini and think we would have gotten him anyway it's not fair to current staff and diminishing credit in landing Freudenberg. Europe is a big place and if we start landing top players from there on a consistent basis then it will be a pipeline but it won't have been established from previous regime

I get you cannot hang it all on Mullin thats a fine argument, but still one must present all the facts.

Mullin technically had:
CO (was not about Mullins coaching style), Adonis (not about style and fight) , Sheed (made decision to skip finals when lav fired), Felix, Doughty, Lovett was about to come and yes i know he did not play but still,  Sampson (Lav stays he stays-committed w/o Briscoe), Amar, CJ, Yakwe was about to come-relationship was built, Mussini relationship was built

Mullin started fresh with:
Sima, Ron, Durand, Ellison, Williams, Owens

Once again just doing this to put it in perspective.

You know what's weird? When you talk about Lavin players who didn't get here on time like Garrett and Jakarr are excuses for his poor performance and you give him credit for players who never got here like Brandon Sampson and Diallo and you give him credit for players Mullin signed and when you talk about Mullin players who left before he got here or never came at all are technically his players and comprise "facts" that prove he under-performed. It's almost like you're full of excrement.

I dont know why you would disagree what I presented is all factually true. Look at the existing team and recruiting cycle from last year pre-Mullin.  Sima, Ron, Durand, Ellison , Williams, and Owens were the only pure Mullin recruits. Everything else was there already or was in the process of being built.

And I understand your concept of the off-the court issues and limits to where they would go. Yes I do think NIT is good gauge for what that group would have brought.

The point of my post was not the merits of whether a house-cleaning was warranted or not. This thread focused on comparing how bad wins/loss wise of teams that were inherited by new coaches with a bare cupboard. I am just pointing out the cupboard was not as bare as people think it was whether you liked the players or recruits fit for our program or not. Talent wise and potential  wins/losses wise we were not exactly that empty. And  much of the people we have all been talking about as future contributors- Yakwe, Lovett, Mussini all had the relationship built already. The Euro pipeline was also technically established through Amar. 

Yakwe was not coming.  That I can tell you.  His advisor liked Lavin as a guy but does not respect him as a coach (once/if you get outside of your SJU bubble and into the national basketball circle you will realize this is the popular sentiment regarding Lavin).

Rysheed could have gotten eligible for the second semester, and Mullin could have kept Obekpa.  He chose not to because why would you want those 2 guys leading your young group of players?? They are horrid role models, so the staff therefor had to choose between winning more games short term or sacrificing wins to build a more positive long term culture out of their own slate.  They chose the latter. 

Yes, if Lavin were here we likely would have won more games this year because he would have kept those 2 clowns. However he brought in Doughty (ineligible), Barnes-Thompkins (barely played for a winless BC team) and Brandon Sampson (barely played for an NIT team).  Obviously fantastic additions.  And with the shitty or absentee leadership of Rysheed and Obekpa, the vicious cycle of underachievement likely would have kept going round and round.

And if this team only made the NIT (your words, not mine) and then lost Obekpa and Rysheed after the year, what would 2016-17 look like?  We already know Lavin's recruiting has been in decline from year 2, you'd be coming off an NIT year, you'd lose your 2 best players and those players would have been shitty leaders, passing their shitty habits on to a young team.  Not at all a positive longterm solution. 

Much more preferable to reset and rebuild this year, and yes the blame lies on Lavin that Mullin had to choose between fielding a basement team or keeping 2 players who likely would have been extremely poor leaders of this young nucleus.