6th Man of St. John's Basketball
St. John's Red Storm => In The Jungle... => Topic started by: JohnnyJungle on May 31, 2020, 04:04:16 PM
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Article from Jon Rothstein on state of St. John's.
https://collegehoopstoday.com/index.php/rothstein-files/st-johns-is-officially-a-system-program/
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Article from Jon Rothstein on state of St. John's.
https://collegehoopstoday.com/index.php/rothstein-files/st-johns-is-officially-a-system-program/
This is what I’ve been calling for since that POS hired Norm Roberts and kept him for six years.
A coach with no system never has any idea who will be on his team from year to year, which is why we haven’t had any idea either.
Look at the players that Jim Boeheim recruits. Even the ones that make you scratch your head. They are all part of his system.
We used to play defense that coaches like Jim Calhoun and Jim Boeheim we’re afraid of. We used out-athlete our opponents.
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This is what I’ve been calling for since that POS hired Norm Roberts and kept him for six years.
A coach with no system never has any idea who will be on his team from year to year, which is why we haven’t had any idea either.
Look at the players that Jim Boeheim recruits. Even the ones that make you scratch your head. They are all part of his system.
We used to play defense that coaches like Jim Calhoun and Jim Boeheim we’re afraid of. We used out-athlete our opponents.
JB has NBA talent every year.
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JB has NBA talent every year.
He does, but he also finds plenty of diamonds in the rough and turns them into great players.
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I think many of us were here in the 80's Final 4, here for the Elite 8 team in 99, and think we are still a destination for 5* players that we can throw the ball to and say "Go get a bucket".
The college basketball landscape has changed. Right now we aren't getting those 5*'s, or even 4*'s consistently. Just the idea of Monteverde's, Oak Hill's, the best aren't in our backyard for high school anymore, forget about realignments, paying kids under the table, etc.
If that means we pivot to a system that is based on junkyard-dog hustle, where we punch around .500 each and every season, I am on board. A system that works well with 3* kids who are ready to play ball and buy-in. All of a sudden that fringe kid in Long Island can find a home and be successful, even if that doesn't mean NBA.
One season we get some bounces our way (they must happen sometime) we could have 23 wins and be in the tournament, if .500 is the goal each and every year.
I like what I see so far, and yes can admit I am still drunk in the Honeymoon phase of CMA's hiring and the results of last season.
I just want a reason to watch Selection Sunday!
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One season we get some bounces our way (they must happen sometime)
Oh yeah. You must be a very new fan.
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Oh yeah. You must be a very new fan.
If this can happen in the bright lights of MSG in the BET, than anything can happen!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiJMZdyorb0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiJMZdyorb0)
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If this can happen in the bright lights of MSG in the BET, than anything can happen!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiJMZdyorb0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiJMZdyorb0)
You've made your point.
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Anderson has never been good at getting the big stars, he get's the 6-3 to 6-6 wing/shooter players like Cole and turns them into Winners, too many times has he found diamond in the roughs in JUCO and they turn out to be all-SEC players, recruiting rankings means nothing because JUCO's dont count and thats what he will get in 2021 also, which is not a bad thing because he has proven that it works.
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Anderson has never been good at getting the big stars, he get's the 6-3 to 6-6 wing/shooter players like Cole and turns them into Winners, too many times has he found diamond in the roughs in JUCO and they turn out to be all-SEC players, recruiting rankings means nothing because JUCO's dont count and thats what he will get in 2021 also, which is not a bad thing because he has proven that it works.
They can be jucos, but they have to be studs until we can land top local talent. Lotta pressure on Vince Cole.
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You think about the JuCo transfers we've had since Hatten. Hatten is the benchmark. Dwight Hardy, great senior year, okay first year. Justin Brownlee, one notch below Hardy. Bashir Ahmed, two good years, not great years.
Not fair to expect Cole to do any more than Ahmed, Brownlee or Hardy did their first year. This team will need four or five guys to average near double figures scoring to share the load. Those guys include; Penny, Earlington, Williams, Cole, and Dunn.
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Anderson has never been good at getting the big stars, he get's the 6-3 to 6-6 wing/shooter players like Cole and turns them into Winners, too many times has he found diamond in the roughs in JUCO and they turn out to be all-SEC players, recruiting rankings means nothing because JUCO's dont count and thats what he will get in 2021 also, which is not a bad thing because he has proven that it works.
No, its not a bad thing. We have a real coach who it seems wants to be here. Go down the list and see how many have fit that bill.
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You think about the JuCo transfers we've had since Hatten. Hatten is the benchmark. Dwight Hardy, great senior year, okay first year. Justin Brownlee, one notch below Hardy. Bashir Ahmed, two good years, not great years.
Not fair to expect Cole to do any more than Ahmed, Brownlee or Hardy did their first year. This team will need four or five guys to average near double figures scoring to share the load. Those guys include; Penny, Earlington, Williams, Cole, and Dunn.
I think those guys, the 5 you mentioned have just as much a chance as being our leading scorers as the rest of the team except for maybe Wusu.
But then again, few thought Champagnie was even a BE player let alone an all rookie team selection.
I think if our returning players, Champagnie and Earlington will score. IDK enough about Cole or Alexander, but if they’re not ready, we will struggle. Dunn can’t be a lead guard.
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Hatten is the benchmark.
Perhaps the Truth is the benchmark youngster.
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Perhaps the Truth is the benchmark youngster.
True that, but I wanted to keep it within this century. That being said, an off the top of my head teams of St Johns JuCo's...
Walter Berry
Bootsy Thornton
Marcus Hatten
Dwight Hardy
Justin Brownlee
Bashir Ahmed
thoughts?
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True that, but I wanted to keep it within this century. That being said, an off the top of my head teams of St Johns JuCo's...
Walter Berry
Bootsy Thornton
Marcus Hatten
Dwight Hardy
Justin Brownlee
Bashir Ahmed
thoughts?
I think some jucos from the 80s and even part of the 90s would be thought of as better players in today’s game. As we know, the juco ranks aren’t nearly as deep as they once were.
In today’s game, landing a top 5 juco means you got Nurideen Lindsay.
In 1990, it meant Boo Harvey.
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billy Paultz
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You think about the JuCo transfers we've had since Hatten. Hatten is the benchmark. Dwight Hardy, great senior year, okay first year. Justin Brownlee, one notch below Hardy. Bashir Ahmed, two good years, not great years.
Not fair to expect Cole to do any more than Ahmed, Brownlee or Hardy did their first year. This team will need four or five guys to average near double figures scoring to share the load. Those guys include; Penny, Earlington, Williams, Cole, and Dunn.
I think Cole will be the leading scorer. If not him then who? I'm as big of a Champ and Earlington fan as there is, but they aren't ready to be primary options. They need to pick their spots. Cole can be the kind of guy that can just score. I think Posh will score more than most expect as well...I just think it will be very up and down. He'll get 20 one night and 7 the next. 15-17 points is my expectation. In a different system and/or surrounded by better scorers that would obviously change.
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I think Cole will be the leading scorer. If not him then who? I'm as big of a Champ and Earlington fan as there is, but they aren't ready to be primary options. They need to pick their spots. Cole can be the kind of guy that can just score. I think Posh will score more than most expect as well...I just think it will be very up and down. He'll get 20 one night and 7 the next. 15-17 points is my expectation. In a different system and/or surrounded by better scorers that would obviously change.
15-17 for cole not posh, right?
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I see our team having top 5 scores with:
14 ppg
13 ppg
12.5 ppg
11 ppg
9 ppg
The names of who does what really doesn't matter how we are built. I think our system is more of next man up, committee style, and that is OK.
All our eggs into one basket (Ponds) led to amazing wins (shooting 13-17 from the floor) and some frustrating losses (5-18 from the floor).
Diversify your scoring St. John's!
I do think:
Toro leads in rebounding.
Moore leads in blocks.
Alexender leads in assists (if starts), if he doesn't then Dunn will lead.
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I see our team having top 5 scores with:
14 ppg
13 ppg
12.5 ppg
11 ppg
9 ppg
The names of who does what really doesn't matter how we are built. I think our system is more of next man up, committee style, and that is OK.
All our eggs into one basket (Ponds) led to amazing wins (shooting 13-17 from the floor) and some frustrating losses (5-18 from the floor).
Diversify your scoring St. John's!
I think this is likely a Norm Roberts level talent group, but hopefully a top 25 level coach.
Stranger things have happened.
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I think this is likely a Norm Roberts level talent group, but hopefully a top 25 level coach.
Stranger things have happened.
And a more forgiving (which I love) league.
Not to get too far into it, but the talent norm had on his least team could have done some damage in this league with a better coach. The extra year + lavin & Dunlap were a huge help, but still as juniors + Mason JR they had some talent.
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Anderson has never been good at getting the big stars, he get's the 6-3 to 6-6 wing/shooter players like Cole and turns them into Winners, too many times has he found diamond in the roughs in JUCO and they turn out to be all-SEC players, recruiting rankings means nothing because JUCO's dont count and thats what he will get in 2021 also, which is not a bad thing because he has proven that it works.
Name one diamond in the rough JUCO player that became an All-SEC under Anderson.
Jayen Barford was a 4 star All-American.
Daryl Macon was a JUCO All-American too.
Those are the only JUCO All-SEC players he's ever had.
I wish Mike Anderson was a good of a coach in reality as he is in your mind.
Edit: I decided to look up all of his All-SEC players in the 8 years he coached.
2019
1st Team Daniel Gafford
Freshman team Isaiah Joe
2018
1st Team Jaylen Barford
2nd Team Daryl Macon
Freshman team Daniel Gafford
2017
2nd Team Moses Kingsley
2016
2nd Team Moses Kingsley
2015
1st Team Bobby Portis
2nd Team Michael Qualls
Freshman Team Anton Beard
2014
2nd Team Bobby Portis
Freshman Team Bobby Portis
2013
2nd Team Marshawn Powell
2nd Team BJ Young
2012
2nd Team BJ Young
Freshman Team BJ Young
That's all.
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And a more forgiving (which I love) league.
Not to get too far into it, but the talent norm had on his least team could have done some damage in this league with a better coach. The extra year + lavin & Dunlap were a huge help, but still as juniors + Mason JR they had some talent.
I don’t know about that actually. We used to get USF, Rutgers, bad Virginia Tech teams etc often twice in one season.
Yes, the conference had more names, but what does it say about USF if they couldn’t beat Norm Roberts?
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Name one diamond in the rough JUCO player that became an All-SEC under Anderson.
Jayen Barfoed was a 4 star All-American.
Daryl Macon was a JUCO All-American too.
Those are the only JUCO All-SEC players he's ever had.
I wish Mike Anderaon was a good of a coach in reality as he is in your mind.
Once is never enough but twice is too many times.
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And a more forgiving (which I love) league.
Not to get too far into it, but the talent norm had on his least team could have done some damage in this league with a better coach. The extra year + lavin & Dunlap were a huge help, but still as juniors + Mason JR they had some talent.
Bingo. That was a tournament team and the guy had no clue how to make it work. That squad with Mase Jr. as a 5th-year senior was 6-12 in conference. They also had a soph Quincy Roberts, who went on to average 24 pts and 6 rebounds at Grambling, and Omari Lawrence who went on to average 13 mpg for a Kansas State team that made the tournament. Norm had NINE juniors on scholarship and a fifth-year senior that year! The next year they just replaced Mase Jr and Lawrence with Polee and then went 12-6 and were beating ranked teams by 15+ regularly.
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Anderson has never been good at getting the big stars, he get's the 6-3 to 6-6 wing/shooter players like Cole and turns them into Winners, too many times has he found diamond in the roughs in JUCO and they turn out to be all-SEC players, recruiting rankings means nothing because JUCO's dont count and thats what he will get in 2021 also, which is not a bad thing because he has proven that it works.
I don't know how true this is.
I can't find a roster of his at Arkansas where he didn't have a very highly ranked kid.
He had #36 RSCI Daniel Gafford his last two seasons. Prior to that he had #47 RSCI Moses Kingsley for four seasons. In 15-16 he had #65 RSCI Jimmy Whit. In 14-15 he had #14 RSCI Bobby Portis and #42 RSCI Rashad Madden. In 12-13 he had #20 BJ Young and #71 and #72 along with Kingsley as a frosh. In his first season in 11-12 it was the same thing minus Kingsley.
He had 3-4 top 75 RSCI guys most years at Missouri.
He doesn't have those types of guys here and he doesn't seem like he will be getting them.
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True that, but I wanted to keep it within this century. That being said, an off the top of my head teams of St Johns JuCo's...
Walter Berry
Bootsy Thornton
Marcus Hatten
Dwight Hardy
Justin Brownlee
Bashir Ahmed
thoughts?
Adding
Billy Goodwin
Boo Harvey
Billy Paultz
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Adding
Billy Goodwin
Boo Harvey
Billy Paultz
Harvey has been added, but all good additions. We’ve had hits and misses with jucos over the years, and I really can’t think of too many guys that couldn’t play at this level.
Mike Mennefield comes to mind. Avery Patterson wasn’t physically able to keep up. I’m drawing a blank on others.
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Harvey has been added, but all good additions. We’ve had hits and misses with jucos over the years, and I really can’t think of too many guys that couldn’t play at this level.
Mike Mennefield comes to mind. Avery Patterson wasn’t physically able to keep up. I’m drawing a blank on others.
If memory serves Mitchell Foster had about the same impact as Mennefield-think they gave us like 4 and 4 which did offer some contribution.
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If memory serves Mitchell Foster had about the same impact as Mennefield-think they gave us like 4 and 4 which did offer some contribution.
Foster was limited offensively, but he held it together defensively when we lost our starting center. He was a quality Juco role player. Sharif Fordham is another juco guy who played a role for us and played it well.
Mennefield had one game, Louisville or maybe Georgetown where he had double figures in rebounds. He was otherwise barely noticeable.
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The great James Scott was a JUCO. Also LJF, how soon they forget.
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The great James Scott was a JUCO. Also LJF, how soon they forget.
Scott had Michigan and Syracuse at MSG and I’m happy for him that he at least had those to go out on.
His first season here was a rough one. The transition to the point wasn’t one he was able to make.
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Scott had Michigan and Syracuse at MSG and I’m happy for him that he at least had those to go out on.
His first season here was a rough one. The transition to the point wasn’t one he was able to make.
Not doubting you - you have a terrific memory - but I don't remember him as a PG or even auditioning to be one. I remember him as having a great baseline jump shot. The inside information is that he had a bit of a substance abuse problem. Which I sympathize with, and like Pike Bishop I share very few sympathies.
One thing I'm sure we can agree on is that he played for absolutely the worst coach St John's has ever had, the guy who did less with more than anyone. Scott was a McD all american, a two time JUCO all american and an NBA player and dopey Bowel Movement had less of an idea to do with him than he did with Felipe and Zendon and Roshown McLeod. BM made Norm look like Wooden.
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Not doubting you - you have a terrific memory - but I don't remember him as a PG or even auditioning to be one. I remember him as having a great baseline jump shot. The inside information is that he had a bit of a substance abuse problem. Which I sympathize with, and like Pike Bishop I share very few sympathies.
One thing I'm sure we can agree on is that he played for absolutely the worst coach St John's has ever had, the guy who did less with more than anyone. Scott was a McD all american, a two time JUCO all american and an NBA player and dopey Bowel Movement had less of an idea to do with him than he did with Felipe and Zendon and Roshown McLeod. BM made Norm look like Wooden.
Scott was a 2 or a 3. If we had a more well rounded team and played him there, he’d have been fine. We had solid players his first year here, but the drop off from David Cain to Mo Brown was significant. Brown wasn’t ready to run the point in the BE, and Mahoney had Scott try to run the offense. It wasn’t successful, nor was it when they put Derek Brown at the point. What confuses me more than anything is how a NY program that had so many point guards to choose from could bomb at such an important position, but they did. The second Mahoney was recruiting for his own program, he did an awful job despite it being disguised as a great one.
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What confuses me more than anything is how a NY program that had so many point guards to choose from could bomb at such an important position, but they did. The second Mahoney was recruiting for his own program, he did an awful job despite it being disguised as a great one.
BM landed a slew of well regarded recruits and had no idea what to do with them. Besides the aforementioned see also Barrett, Rowan. Re PG, Mo Brown was highly regarded as was Tarik Turner. Worst. Coach. Ever.
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The great James Scott was a JUCO. Also LJF, how soon they forget.
Man could that boy shoot. Remember watching a tv game that aired just before the Super Bowl. Too bad we didn't have him for 2 - 3 years.
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Man could that boy shoot. Remember watching a tv game that aired just before the Super Bowl. Too bad we didn't have him for 2 - 3 years.
I'm thinking of him as a big brawny kid, do i have the right guy.
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I'm thinking of him as a big brawny kid, do i have the right guy.
Heck no! 6'5 athletic shooting guard.
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Scott had Michigan and Syracuse at MSG and I’m happy for him that he at least had those to go out on.
His first season here was a rough one. The transition to the point wasn’t one he was able to make.
I think Mahoney had him play PG minutes while still trying to figure out how to use Scott. His dribble was too high for a full time PG and the system was poor for passing. Add him to Felipe, Zendon, Rowan Barrett, McLoud and others...what could have been.
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Man could that boy shoot. Remember watching a tv game that aired just before the Super Bowl. Too bad we didn't have him for 2 - 3 years.
Not much of a three point shooter but money from the baseline.
Macdonald's AA, two time JUCO AA (23/10/10) and a cup of coffee in the NBA. Unfortunately he ran into the buzzsaw that was Brain Mahoney.
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Not much of a three point shooter but money from the baseline.
Macdonald's AA, two time JUCO AA (23/10/10) and a cup of coffee in the NBA. Unfortunately he ran into the buzzsaw that was Brain Mahoney.
+1